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I'm not talking about basques neither spaniards. I'm talking about resettlement of West Europe after glaciations, nordic celtiberians done.
Respected Taranis, Why don't you put the map of Z196 distribution? Because your source is politically biased i think.
So why don't you put the first map wich appears in your source maps page?
The map represents full ancestry of different individuals, which haplogroups cannot provide (they only point to one ancestor, not the thousands of ancestors we have). Every ES, PT, UK, etc., you see, it's a person. Depending on ones ancestral markers, the program assigns a position.In that map I only can see words, country initials: ES PT FR... followed by numbers, there aren't colours or images, neither haplogroups. i haven't access to the data.
Celtic folks did not play a role concerning this. Just after glaciations there was no Indo-European in Europe, let alone Iberia. The ancient inhabitants of the Peninsula were non Indo-European speakers for a very long time, Basque presence nowadays makes this clear. Without mentioning ancient discoveries related to the Iberian culture (possibly as ancient as Basque, both pretty similar)...not Indo-European at all. Taranis knows this better than me.I'm not talking about basques neither spaniards. I'm talking about resettlement of West Europe after glaciations, nordic celtiberians done.
As the others and I explained, this doesn't make sense. R1b was evidently absent from Western Europe during the Neolithic (which in itself was thousands of years after the end of the last ice age), since it has thus far failed to come up in any ancient DNA samples from Neolithic sites. The idea to correlate R1b with the glacial refuge of the last ice age was debunked.
just a little calcul concerning the respective weight of Y-I and Y-R1b in Europe (today!)
I did not try to go into details, just an overlook that retains more ancient ancestry?
broioù
Y-I Y-R1b I/I+R1b BASHKIRED 0,0 47,0 0,0 SPAGN KASTI-LEON
3,0 64,0 4,5 SPAGN KASTI-MANCHA
3,5 66,0 5,0 FRAÑS POETEW-S 4,5 74,5 5,7 SPAGN EUSKADI
5,5 85,0 6,1 SPAGN ASTURIAS
4,0 58,5 6,4 SPAGN KATALONIA 6,0 82,5 6,8 FRAÑS ALVERNIA
4,5 52,5 7,9 SPAGN KANTABRIA
6,0 55,0 9,8 SPAGN GALIKIA 7,0 63,0 10,0 KEMBRE
9,5 83,5 10,2 PORTUGAL
6,5 56,0 10,4 FRAÑS PROVAÑS 7,0 58,0 10,8 SPAGN VALENKIA
9,5 63,5 13,0 FRAÑS BREIZH
12,5 80,0 13,5 SPAGN ANDALUSIA
9,5 58,5 14,0 IWERZHON
13,0 79,0 14,1 FRAÑS LYONNAIS ALP
11,0 66,5 14,2 ITALIA SIKILIA
5,0 30,0 14,3 FRAÑS ILE-FRANCE 8,5 45,0 15,9 BRO-SKOSS ALBA
14,0 72,5 16,2 ITALIA NORZH 11,0 55,0 16,7 FRAÑS ELSASS
13,5 63,5 17,5 FRAÑS ARTOIS-FL . 14,0 61,0 18,7 ITALIA KREIS
10,0 43,0 18,9 ITALIA SU
7,5 29,0 20,5 SPAGN ARAGON 17,5 60,5 22,4 BRO-SAOS 21,0 67,0 23,9 BELGIA
19,5 61,0 24,2 TURKI ANATOLIA 5,5 16,0 25,6 ALAMAGN SU 18,0 48,5 27,1 SWISS
18,0 48,0 27,3 ALAMAGN KORNAOG 21,5 47,0 31,4 BROIOU-ISEL
25,5 53,5 32,3 GRESSIA SU 11,5 20,5 35,9 ALAMAGN RETER
23,0 36,0 39,0 LATVIA 8,0 12,0 40,0 ALAMAGN NORZH
26,5 36,0 42,4 SLOVAKIA 17,0 23,0 42,5 ISLAND
33,0 42,0 44,0 GRESSIA KRETA
12,0 15,0 44,4 DANMARK 35,5 44,0 44,7 AOSTRIA
20,0 23,0 46,5 KUBROS 8,0 9,0 47,1 NORWEGIA 25,0 28,0 47,2 ALBANIA
15,5 16,0 49,2 POLONIA
16,0 16,0 50,0 TCHEKIA 24,0 22,0 52,2 GRESSIA KREIS
14,0 11,5 54,9 SLOVENIA
33,5 23,5 58,8 HUNGARIA 25,5 17,0 60,0 ITALIA SARDINIA
37,0 22,0 62,7 GRESSIA NORZH
22,5 13,0 63,4 SWEDEN 41,0 22,0 65,1 ROMANIA 30,0 16,0 65,2 MAKEDONIA
28,0 13,5 67,5 RUSSIA WENN 22,0 10,0 68,8 ESTONIA
18,5 8,0 69,8 RUSSIA
15,5 6,0 72,1 LITUANIA 13,0 5,0 72,2 BULGARIA
28,0 9,5 74,7 SERBIA 41,5 7,0 85,6 UKRAINA
25,0 4,0 86,2 KROATIA 51,0 8,0 86,4 FINNLAND
29,0 3,5 89,2 BOSNIA HERZEGOVINA
53,0 4,0 93,0
As the others and I explained, this doesn't make sense. R1b was evidently absent from Western Europe during the Neolithic (which in itself was thousands of years after the end of the last ice age), since it has thus far failed to come up in any ancient DNA samples from Neolithic sites. The idea to correlate R1b with the glacial refuge of the last ice age was debunked.
I'd put up a distribution map of R1b-Z196 if there was a (good) map of it. As I mentioned, the markers S21, L21 and S28 were all known or quite a while (as were some subclades of Z196, in particular M153 and M167), while the R1b-Z196 marker has been discovered only relatively later, and as a result, the major studies off which these maps are based did not include them yet. The maps were, by the way, made by the site owner, Maciamo. The reason he didn't make a map of Z196 yet is not because he would be politically biased, but because of a data deficiency.
Do you mean the overall distribution map of R1b? You have to keep in mind that this represents the overall percentage of R1b, completely disregarding the various subclades:
R1b was absent in Western Europe in neolithic? is it a joke?. Bryan Sykes is not the only genetist that found what i said. There are Spencer Wells, who leads the biggest Human genoma project ever. You can see....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQHX_MwhN80
Yes, the overall percentage it is, but rest S21, L21 and S28 to overall, and obtain that in Western Europe Z196 dominates
just a little calcul concerning the respective weight of Y-I and Y-R1b in Europe (today!)
I did not try to go into details, just an overlook that retains more ancient ancestry?
As you can see, all of this is from peer-reviewed sources, and in none of the ancient DNA samples R1b did show up.
Who deleted my last post? I think any people don't like to bring the true at most people, in other forums, when an admin delete some post, it explain why. But not here.
In spain we say "la realidad muerde""tarde o temprano la verdad sale a la luz"
The fact is, that when i saw the paint for my first time, i couldn't say who are who.
- Why?
That is Iberia (or Celtiberia as we want).
.Because it's a painting, by one artist, so they're all in the same style. Try photographs. You'll find that there is overlap between the populations, but the means are definitely different.
Not the same thing. Iberia also includes some traditionally non-Celtiberian areas, mainly along the fringes. Do you mean that all the Spaniards came from traditionally Celtiberian areas?
What do you suppose these ratios demonstrate? I don't think they really show which groups have the most anciently European ancestry across their genomes... just in their YDNA frequencies. The youth of the primary R1b and I expansions in Europe attests to that... there is too much of a possibility of expansions of certain Y lines within populations to equate Y lines with full genomes here.
Many artist have a rare and personal style, but this one looks like a photo, so i'll put photos.
And don't forget the Viking contribution in the islands, which Iberia is almost nil
Celtic folks did not play a role concerning this. Just after glaciations there was no Indo-European in Europe, let alone Iberia. The ancient inhabitants of the Peninsula were non Indo-European speakers for a very long time, Basque presence nowadays makes this clear. Without mentioning ancient discoveries related to the Iberian culture (possibly as ancient as Basque, both pretty similar)...not Indo-European at all. Taranis knows this better than me.
The Vikings were active quite a long time before that painting.
Besides, don't you think the Goths, Suebi, Vandals, and Franks had an impact on the Iberian population?
Check out our Guess the Ethnicity forum, it may be the place you want to post that sort of thing.
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