Sarmatians, Serbs, Croats and I2a2
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Dianatomia
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Almost all of E1b1b in Greece is E-V13, though in Turkey that clade can only be found near the Western shores. It is virtually non-existent further inland, while i.e. in Germany it reaches up to 8% in the Central and Southern part of the country. The E1b1b in Turkey is mostly E-M123. It is rather insignificant in Greece or Germany. This clade dominates in the Near East.
As for the Central Asian markers, Turkey has some exotic markers which originate in Asia. These markers came in the region with the Ottoman Turks in the middle ages, but they are not to be found among Greeks (or Armenians). If there was recent intermixture then we would be able to detect these markers (even at lower rate) among Greeks. So we can rule out mixture because of the Ottoman empire. Whatever the genetic correlation between Greeks and Turks, it was there before the Ottoman Turks arrived. I.e. the relatedness between Greeks and Anatolians.
Aberdeen
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Regardless of subclade, Turkey and Greece have more J2 and E1b1b than Germany, Britain, Ireland and Spain, and have far less R1b than those countries. On the whole, Turkey and Greece, despite their differences, are more like one another than either of them are like the other countries mentioned. That's also true culturallly, despite the fact that Turkey is largely muslim and non-IE speaking. Look at the foods and social attitudes in those countries and see if you don't see some shared cultural traits that no doubt came from their shared history.
Please refer me to a scientific paper that talks about those "exotic markers" from Asia that are found in Turkey but not in Greece. A search of the internet didn't produce any results for me.
Echetlaeus
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The point is how many Turkish people are related to these Proto-Turkic nations that came in the first place from the steps. Maybe the majority of them are mixed with European population. Recall the jenissaries were Balkan males. This says a lot, I think.
bicicleur 2
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the proto Turks were haplo N1c and N1b , mixed with some C3 (Mongol actualy) and Q , maybe some R1a joined in too
I think most R1a in Turkey even don't descend from proto Turks
Clarissant
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Thanks for your update Bicicleur
Yes, you're probably right about the revised date of 45,000. And you make very interesting new points too...
And yes, although the Gravettian culture is dated to only 30,000 BC, I do believe that haplogroup I did not appear until perhaps 25,000 years ago. Thus, I highly doubt the people that belonged to the Grimaldi skeleton left no trace of their culture in Europe. IMO, it seems more likely that the Gravettian Culture is the proto Khoisan people's culture, as the "Illyrian" phenotype (i.e. in regions where the haplogroup I is concentrated, the people tend to be on average tall and lean - more so than the short statured Grimaldi skeletons and the Gravettian Venus figures).
Also, there are remnants of African phenotypes/ haplogroups in Europe. (And as you mentioned, there are indeed Europeans with African haplogroup A1a). And then there are those displaying greater African phenotypes that were often lumped together with the Romani. However, many early European nobles displayed African phenotypes too. In this way, I think that African and European haplogroups lived side by side in ancient Europe and prehistory Europe...just as they do, more or less, today. However, it seems logical to conclude that the Africans arrived in Europe first, and so many "prehistory" artifacts we find in Europe today is evidence of their culture.
Re the Khosian, I believe they are mainly haplogroup A (and even B - possible even E??). But please don't quote me on that just yet, I'll need to confirm it..
As for the postulation of the first human arriving in Europe via Moravia, 50,000 year ago...until a skeleton is found to back up the dating, it appears this a still a theory....thus the Grimaldi skeletons are the only evidence we have as yet of modern humans in Europe...And while there were other "hybrid" humans in Europe, I've read that modern humans predate these so-called hybrid humans i.e. the Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons.
Cheers
PS Yes, it seems the Khoisan are Haplogroup A, B and E according to the attached diagram.
______________________________________________
Hi Aberdeen,
You wrote: " Your comments don't make much sense to me. First of all, if you're talking about Albert Lord, he worked with Parry to develop a theory about oral poetry. He wasn't involved in the study of genetics. Also, there's not much in the way of cultural affinities connecting Turkey to Atlantic Europe, at least not since the end of the Neolithic. Turkish isn't even an IE language- it was brought to Turkey in the Middle Ages by invading Turks who were originally from Central Asia. Greek is IE, but less closely related to German, Gaelic, English or Spanish than they are to each other, with English being a Germanic language with a lot of French grafted on to it. And the genetic profile of Turkey and Greece match each other much better than they match Germany, Britain, Ireland or Spain. If you refer to the very handy list of genetic profiles for different European countries that Maciamo has provided for us in the Genetics section of this website, you'll see that both Turkey and Greece have a lot more J2 and E1b1b than Britain or Spain, and a lot less R1b. The interesting thing about Britain, Ireland and Spain is just how dominant R1b is in those countries. And of course Germany has a lot more R1b than Greece or Turkey but less than Britain or Spain. Turkey has a lot less I haplotype than any of the other countries. As for the Illyrians, people can't seem to agree as to who they were, although some of us see a connection to the Albanians. If you buy yourself an atlas, you'll see how close Greece and Turkey are to one another, and how far they are from Spain, Britain and Ireland. And of course there are a lot of cultural affinities between Greece and Turkey today, simply because the Turks occupied Greece for centuries. And that might have affected the genetic similarities just as much as proximity did."
My reply:
A) When I refer to Lord, I'm referencing his theory on oral tradition in relation to comparative cultural studies, not genetic studies. And according to Lord, the iconic Hellenic poem, The Odyssey, shared similarities to Balkan oral traditions/ poems. In this way, there was a cultural diffusion between these regions or perhaps, they are sprung from an ancient Illyrian culture that encompassed Greece (or vice versa).
B) I never suggested that relatively modern British/Scottish/ Iberian/ Irish culture corresponds to contemporary Islamic/ Ottoman Turkish culture. I compare them only on a comparative genetic level. Also, haplogroup I is present in both these regions too. So, my general viewpoint/ argument is at a macro level i.e. comparative/ standardised level. And thus, at the macro comparative level, British and Turkish genetic profiles display an affinity (as shown in the attached diagram above).
Moreover, I made the point earlier that, perhaps, it is ridiculous to even try to assign an ethnographic name/ nation to a single haplogroup. Perhaps, haplgroup I & R (both Rb & Ra) etc were always historically linked together....whatever the case, more evidence is needed to construct a sound argument either way i.e. tribes were always a mixture of haplogroups, or perhaps, once upon a time, there were separate tribes that correspond to single haplogroup etc.
C) As far as I understand, Albania's comparative haplogroup profile is similar to Turkey, in contrast to the West Balkans (which have haplogroup I levels corresponding to Scandinavian/ Germanic nations and Sardinia. Also, ancient Illyria roughly corresponds to ancient Dalmatia and regions adjacent to it i.e. Slovenia/ Croatia/ B-H/ Serbia/ Macedonia(?), and arguably, some places outside the current Balkan national borders. In contrast, Albania appears to have more of an Ottoman/ Turkish (?) identity and history; however, I believe Albania should be included as part of ancient Illyria, but certainly, Albania's modern borders do not encompass the expansive ancient Balkan regions of ancient Illyria.
D) There are well-known ancient Greek settlements on Croatian Islands, so there is a shared history between both countries. Likewise, German & Slavic nations share a history too i.e. there were Germanic settlements on Slavic lands and Slavic settlements on Germanic lands. My point is this: yes, Rb is present in modern Germany, but ancient Germania/ Kerman would have encompassed larger areas than its present borders, and thus have experienced Rb and Ra encroachment on its expansive ancient lands. In much the same way, Turkey and Greece experienced a population exchange of sorts. However, according to comparative genetic studies, the British haplogroup profile share an affinity with Turkey, whilst Greece shares a comparative affinity with Germany.
Another possibility is that perhaps, the Rb presence in Germany is evidence of a proto Celtic/ Gothic (?) / Illyrian (?) tribe that had members from Rb/ I/ (Ra?) haplogroups that settled in the regions of modern Germany and resettled other parts of Western Europe.
However, I don't think the Rb haplogroup can be regarded as "Germanic" because the places where it is concentrated is not in traditional "Germanic" lands. I see it more as Basque/ Celtic/ Gothic / Turkic. However, perhaps there is no distinctively Germanic haplogroup at all? Perhaps, "Germanic" can only be applied to culture and language? I think this might be the case actually...
In fact, at this stage, it might be more factual to talk of Basque (Rb), Illyrian (I), Sarmatian (Ra) haplogroups...
E) Re J & E haplogroups in Greece etc, yes, I made the point earlier that haplogroup I most probably shared Europe with more ancient haplogroups. Also, they were most probably in Europe prior to the appearance of haplogroup I. I did state that I thought Africans were the first to set foot in Europe, and thus the first "Europeans".
Hope that clarifies my argument for you a bit more
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Clarissant
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Thanks for your reply Sparkey
Yes, I've read that caveat re the buttocks "angle degree" as distinguishing the condition of Steatopygia. But I do wonder if this is a sound scientific demarcation or theoretical bias to render many of the voluptuous Venus figurines found in Europe/ Eurasia etc as non-African? I'm sure there are some Khoisan women with comparatively large buttocks (due to Steatopygia) that angle anywhere between a 90-120 degree angle and beyond. But your counter-point is valid.
However, as stated earlier, in areas with high concentrations of haplogroup I, the phenotypes tend to be comparatively tall and lean. Which lends credence again to my original hypothesis. What do you think Sparkey?
Also, you wrote: "If you're proposing a Gibraltar area introduction of these African lineages, it conflicts with the archaeology of the Gravettian culture, which shows an origin near Crimea". This is interesting. I wonder how they came to that conclusion. I'll do some more research, cheers
Re evidence of the Khoisan people in Europe, I think there is...for example, the Khoisan are mainly of haplogroup A and that haplogroup has been found in Europe (and throughtout the world).
Lastly, re your last question, I think the culture/ people that developed the Hellenic Greek/ Homeric poems could have originated in the West Balkans/ Illyria. But I could be wrong...just a hypothesis at this stage....
Re the age of haplogroup I, it is generally accepted to be up to 25,000 years old.... however, I think it's plausible to theorise it's older, and thus could be dated as close to when IJ haplogroup first appeared...but more scientific evidence/ data is needed to make that claim valid.
Cheers !
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Aberdeen
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There's only one example of Mesolithic European mtDNA A in Russia, and no example of European mtDNA A from the Paleolithic or Neolithic. Or have you found some samples that nobody else knows about?
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..........
Hi Aberdeen,
You wrote: " Your comments don't make much sense to me. First of all, if you're talking about Albert Lord, he worked with Parry to develop a theory about oral poetry. He wasn't involved in the study of genetics. Also, there's not much in the way of cultural affinities connecting Turkey to Atlantic Europe, at least not since the end of the Neolithic. Turkish isn't even an IE language- it was brought to Turkey in the Middle Ages by invading Turks who were originally from Central Asia. Greek is IE, but less closely related to German, Gaelic, English or Spanish than they are to each other, with English being a Germanic language with a lot of French grafted on to it. And the genetic profile of Turkey and Greece match each other much better than they match Germany, Britain, Ireland or Spain. If you refer to the very handy list of genetic profiles for different European countries that Maciamo has provided for us in the Genetics section of this website, you'll see that both Turkey and Greece have a lot more J2 and E1b1b than Britain or Spain, and a lot less R1b. The interesting thing about Britain, Ireland and Spain is just how dominant R1b is in those countries. And of course Germany has a lot more R1b than Greece or Turkey but less than Britain or Spain. Turkey has a lot less I haplotype than any of the other countries. As for the Illyrians, people can't seem to agree as to who they were, although some of us see a connection to the Albanians. If you buy yourself an atlas, you'll see how close Greece and Turkey are to one another, and how far they are from Spain, Britain and Ireland. And of course there are a lot of cultural affinities between Greece and Turkey today, simply because the Turks occupied Greece for centuries. And that might have affected the genetic similarities just as much as proximity did."
My reply:
A) When I refer to Lord, I'm referencing his theory on oral tradition in relation to comparative cultural studies, not genetic studies. And according to Lord, the iconic Hellenic poem, The Odyssey, shared similarities to Balkan oral traditions/ poems. In this way, there was a cultural diffusion between these regions or perhaps, they are sprung from an ancient Illyrian culture that encompassed Greece (or vice versa).
B) I never suggested that relatively modern British/Scottish/ Iberian/ Irish culture corresponds to contemporary Islamic/ Ottoman Turkish culture. I compare them only on a comparative genetic level. Also, haplogroup I is present in both these regions too. So, my general viewpoint/ argument is at a macro level i.e. comparative/ standardised level. And thus, at the macro comparative level, British and Turkish genetic profiles display an affinity (as shown in the attached diagram above).
Moreover, I made the point earlier that, perhaps, it is ridiculous to even try to assign an ethnographic name/ nation to a single haplogroup. Perhaps, haplgroup I & R (both Rb & Ra) etc were always historically linked together....whatever the case, more evidence is needed to construct a sound argument either way i.e. tribes were always a mixture of haplogroups, or perhaps, once upon a time, there were separate tribes that correspond to single haplogroup etc.
C) As far as I understand, Albania's comparative haplogroup profile is similar to Turkey, in contrast to the West Balkans (which have haplogroup I levels corresponding to Scandinavian/ Germanic nations and Sardinia. Also, ancient Illyria roughly corresponds to ancient Dalmatia and regions adjacent to it i.e. Slovenia/ Croatia/ B-H/ Serbia/ Macedonia(?), and arguably, some places outside the current Balkan national borders. In contrast, Albania appears to have more of an Ottoman/ Turkish (?) identity and history; however, I believe Albania should be included as part of ancient Illyria, but certainly, Albania's modern borders do not encompass the expansive ancient Balkan regions of ancient Illyria.
D) There are well-known ancient Greek settlements on Croatian Islands, so there is a shared history between both countries. Likewise, German & Slavic nations share a history too i.e. there were Germanic settlements on Slavic lands and Slavic settlements on Germanic lands. My point is this: yes, Rb is present in modern Germany, but ancient Germania/ Kerman would have encompassed larger areas than its present borders, and thus have experienced Rb and Ra encroachment on its expansive ancient lands. In much the same way, Turkey and Greece experienced a population exchange of sorts. However, according to comparative genetic studies, the British haplogroup profile share an affinity with Turkey, whilst Greece shares a comparative affinity with Germany.
Another possibility is that perhaps, the Rb presence in Germany is evidence of a proto Celtic/ Gothic (?) / Illyrian (?) tribe that had members from Rb/ I/ (Ra?) haplogroups that settled in the regions of modern Germany and resettled other parts of Western Europe.
However, I don't think the Rb haplogroup can be regarded as "Germanic" because the places where it is concentrated is not in traditional "Germanic" lands. I see it more as Basque/ Celtic/ Gothic / Turkic. However, perhaps there is no distinctively Germanic haplogroup at all? Perhaps, "Germanic" can only be applied to culture and language? I think this might be the case actually...
In fact, at this stage, it might be more factual to talk of Basque (Rb), Illyrian (I), Sarmatian (Ra) haplogroups...
E) Re J & E haplogroups in Greece etc, yes, I made the point earlier that haplogroup I most probably shared Europe with more ancient haplogroups. Also, they were most probably in Europe prior to the appearance of haplogroup I. I did state that I thought Africans were the first to set foot in Europe, and thus the first "Europeans".
Hope that clarifies my argument for you a bit more
Actually, the theory of oral poetry, mainly developed by Parry, does not attempt to pretend that there are strong cultural affinities between Bronze Age Greece and 20 century Slavic culture. It's simply an explanation of how non-literate cultures create and use poetry, and what happens to oral poetry when that culture becomes literate. Secondly, while it's a fact that the modern population of Europe is descended from people who came there from Asia and the Middle East, the DNA profiles of Greece and Turkey, while they show some differences, are more like one another than they are like the DNA profiles of the people of northern Europe. Simply look at some stats and you'll see that's true. Thirdly, you have no idea about the Illyrians and should do some reading on the subject, while bearing in mind that the term "Illyria" did not necessarily mean the same thing during different historical periods. Fourthly, there's not a lot of evidence for people arriving in Europe directly from Africa. One might expect that, but the case hasn't been proven yet. I could go on and on, but I fail to see the point. We're not going to see eye to eye on this.
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Luan
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Did you read history of slavic serbian propaganda?
Thanks for your update Bicicleur
Yes, you're probably right about the revised date of 45,000. And you make very interesting new points too...
And yes, although the Gravettian culture is dated to only 30,000 BC, I do believe that haplogroup I did not appear until perhaps 25,000 years ago. Thus, I highly doubt the people that belonged to the Grimaldi skeleton left no trace of their culture in Europe. IMO, it seems more likely that the Gravettian Culture is the proto Khoisan people's culture, as the "Illyrian" phenotype (i.e. in regions where the haplogroup I is concentrated, the people tend to be on average tall and lean - more so than the short statured Grimaldi skeletons and the Gravettian Venus figures).
Also, there are remnants of African phenotypes/ haplogroups in Europe. (And as you mentioned, there are indeed Europeans with African haplogroup A1a). And then there are those displaying greater African phenotypes that were often lumped together with the Romani. However, many early European nobles displayed African phenotypes too. In this way, I think that African and European haplogroups lived side by side in ancient Europe and prehistory Europe...just as they do, more or less, today. However, it seems logical to conclude that the Africans arrived in Europe first, and so many "prehistory" artifacts we find in Europe today is evidence of their culture.
Re the Khosian, I believe they are mainly haplogroup A (and even B - possible even E??). But please don't quote me on that just yet, I'll need to confirm it..
As for the postulation of the first human arriving in Europe via Moravia, 50,000 year ago...until a skeleton is found to back up the dating, it appears this a still a theory....thus the Grimaldi skeletons are the only evidence we have as yet of modern humans in Europe...And while there were other "hybrid" humans in Europe, I've read that modern humans predate these so-called hybrid humans i.e. the Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons.
Cheers
PS Yes, it seems the Khoisan are Haplogroup A, B and E according to the attached diagram.
View attachment 6404
______________________________________________
Hi Aberdeen,
You wrote: " Your comments don't make much sense to me. First of all, if you're talking about Albert Lord, he worked with Parry to develop a theory about oral poetry. He wasn't involved in the study of genetics. Also, there's not much in the way of cultural affinities connecting Turkey to Atlantic Europe, at least not since the end of the Neolithic. Turkish isn't even an IE language- it was brought to Turkey in the Middle Ages by invading Turks who were originally from Central Asia. Greek is IE, but less closely related to German, Gaelic, English or Spanish than they are to each other, with English being a Germanic language with a lot of French grafted on to it. And the genetic profile of Turkey and Greece match each other much better than they match Germany, Britain, Ireland or Spain. If you refer to the very handy list of genetic profiles for different European countries that Maciamo has provided for us in the Genetics section of this website, you'll see that both Turkey and Greece have a lot more J2 and E1b1b than Britain or Spain, and a lot less R1b. The interesting thing about Britain, Ireland and Spain is just how dominant R1b is in those countries. And of course Germany has a lot more R1b than Greece or Turkey but less than Britain or Spain. Turkey has a lot less I haplotype than any of the other countries. As for the Illyrians, people can't seem to agree as to who they were, although some of us see a connection to the Albanians. If you buy yourself an atlas, you'll see how close Greece and Turkey are to one another, and how far they are from Spain, Britain and Ireland. And of course there are a lot of cultural affinities between Greece and Turkey today, simply because the Turks occupied Greece for centuries. And that might have affected the genetic similarities just as much as proximity did."
My reply:
A) When I refer to Lord, I'm referencing his theory on oral tradition in relation to comparative cultural studies, not genetic studies. And according to Lord, the iconic Hellenic poem, The Odyssey, shared similarities to Balkan oral traditions/ poems. In this way, there was a cultural diffusion between these regions or perhaps, they are sprung from an ancient Illyrian culture that encompassed Greece (or vice versa).
B) I never suggested that relatively modern British/Scottish/ Iberian/ Irish culture corresponds to contemporary Islamic/ Ottoman Turkish culture. I compare them only on a comparative genetic level. Also, haplogroup I is present in both these regions too. So, my general viewpoint/ argument is at a macro level i.e. comparative/ standardised level. And thus, at the macro comparative level, British and Turkish genetic profiles display an affinity (as shown in the attached diagram above).
Moreover, I made the point earlier that, perhaps, it is ridiculous to even try to assign an ethnographic name/ nation to a single haplogroup. Perhaps, haplgroup I & R (both Rb & Ra) etc were always historically linked together....whatever the case, more evidence is needed to construct a sound argument either way i.e. tribes were always a mixture of haplogroups, or perhaps, once upon a time, there were separate tribes that correspond to single haplogroup etc.
C) As far as I understand, Albania's comparative haplogroup profile is similar to Turkey, in contrast to the West Balkans (which have haplogroup I levels corresponding to Scandinavian/ Germanic nations and Sardinia. Also, ancient Illyria roughly corresponds to ancient Dalmatia and regions adjacent to it i.e. Slovenia/ Croatia/ B-H/ Serbia/ Macedonia(?), and arguably, some places outside the current Balkan national borders. In contrast, Albania appears to have more of an Ottoman/ Turkish (?) identity and history; however, I believe Albania should be included as part of ancient Illyria, but certainly, Albania's modern borders do not encompass the expansive ancient Balkan regions of ancient Illyria.
D) There are well-known ancient Greek settlements on Croatian Islands, so there is a shared history between both countries. Likewise, German & Slavic nations share a history too i.e. there were Germanic settlements on Slavic lands and Slavic settlements on Germanic lands. My point is this: yes, Rb is present in modern Germany, but ancient Germania/ Kerman would have encompassed larger areas than its present borders, and thus have experienced Rb and Ra encroachment on its expansive ancient lands. In much the same way, Turkey and Greece experienced a population exchange of sorts. However, according to comparative genetic studies, the British haplogroup profile share an affinity with Turkey, whilst Greece shares a comparative affinity with Germany.
Another possibility is that perhaps, the Rb presence in Germany is evidence of a proto Celtic/ Gothic (?) / Illyrian (?) tribe that had members from Rb/ I/ (Ra?) haplogroups that settled in the regions of modern Germany and resettled other parts of Western Europe.
However, I don't think the Rb haplogroup can be regarded as "Germanic" because the places where it is concentrated is not in traditional "Germanic" lands. I see it more as Basque/ Celtic/ Gothic / Turkic. However, perhaps there is no distinctively Germanic haplogroup at all? Perhaps, "Germanic" can only be applied to culture and language? I think this might be the case actually...
In fact, at this stage, it might be more factual to talk of Basque (Rb), Illyrian (I), Sarmatian (Ra) haplogroups...
E) Re J & E haplogroups in Greece etc, yes, I made the point earlier that haplogroup I most probably shared Europe with more ancient haplogroups. Also, they were most probably in Europe prior to the appearance of haplogroup I. I did state that I thought Africans were the first to set foot in Europe, and thus the first "Europeans".
Hope that clarifies my argument for you a bit more
[h=1][/h]
Dianatomia
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It's not exactly like that. They are relatively close, but given they are neighboring countries they are relatively far away from each other in the Autosomal dna charts.
As for cultural overlaps. This is not really the topic here.
That's odd. Given the mongoloid admixture in Turks as a topic is all over the internet. In any case, the very page you are getting your numbers from has some extra notes under the schematic.
Aberdeen
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Actually, Clarissant is presenting a cultural argument, based on what I consider to be a misreading of the modern theory of the oral poetry tradition.
As for the DNA, you're still being cryptic. If you're talking about the DNA haplotypes that can be found at low levels in Turkey but not in Greece, they're not found in Britain, Ireland or Spain either. Nor in Germany, except for very low levels of N and Q, but those are different subclades of N and Q, from different Asian sources. If you're talking about the East Asian portion of Turkish autosomal, it's not found in Greece, but it's not found in northern Europe either. It is a fact that despite differences between Greek and Turkish DNA, they're closer to each other in DNA content than they are to the DNA content of Germany, Britain, Ireland or Spain. The East Asian portion of Turkish DNA is the only way in which Greece and Turkey differ significantly on an autosomal level.
Clarissant
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Thanks for your comment Luan.
You wrote: "Did you read history of slavic serbian propaganda?".
My answer, no. As I understand (please refer to the diagrammatic chart below), the majority of Albanians are Muslim (approx. 56 %) and have high concentrations of J and E (plus Rb) haplogroups, just like Turkey (as well as Greece). But, I haven't compared it to Greece's haplogroup profile, as Greece's history reflects a Christian culture, while the Albanian culture is Islamic and was part of the Ottoman Empire, so that's why I compared it to Turkey. However, perhaps in prehistory, there was no such distinction, that's why I said Albania should be included in the expansive Balkan region known in antiquity as Illyria - but compact modern Albania is not Illyria on it's own. Does that not sound logical to you?
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Hi Ike,
You wrote: "Does it necessarily mean it being African?
Guy here says it's been widespread in Eurasia during the icy pleistocene until around 10,000 years ago."
IMO, I think the Khoisan traveled to Eurasia too. Also, note the angel of these Khoisan women's buttocks on the link you provide. They are not at a 90 degree angle. So I think it's fair to state that the Venus figurines found throughout Europe/ Eurasia are evidence of the Khoisan people's migrations through Europe and Eurasia. As they, the Khoisan, are the only people (apart from the Andamanese), that have this genetic trait called Steatopygia - exemplified in the Venus figurines.
You wrote: "Did you read history of slavic serbian propaganda?".
My answer, no. As I understand (please refer to the diagrammatic chart below), the majority of Albanians are Muslim (approx. 56 %) and have high concentrations of J and E (plus Rb) haplogroups, just like Turkey (as well as Greece). But, I haven't compared it to Greece's haplogroup profile, as Greece's history reflects a Christian culture, while the Albanian culture is Islamic and was part of the Ottoman Empire, so that's why I compared it to Turkey. However, perhaps in prehistory, there was no such distinction, that's why I said Albania should be included in the expansive Balkan region known in antiquity as Illyria - but compact modern Albania is not Illyria on it's own. Does that not sound logical to you?
______________________________________________________________
Hi Ike,
You wrote: "Does it necessarily mean it being African?
Guy here says it's been widespread in Eurasia during the icy pleistocene until around 10,000 years ago."
IMO, I think the Khoisan traveled to Eurasia too. Also, note the angel of these Khoisan women's buttocks on the link you provide. They are not at a 90 degree angle. So I think it's fair to state that the Venus figurines found throughout Europe/ Eurasia are evidence of the Khoisan people's migrations through Europe and Eurasia. As they, the Khoisan, are the only people (apart from the Andamanese), that have this genetic trait called Steatopygia - exemplified in the Venus figurines.
Diurpaneus
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I wasn't speaking of any ethnic process.
The genes had their own path: many people got Slavicized.
[However, Baltic languages have exchanged "popularity" with Slavic languages: Baltic languages were originally spoken over a much wider area than is now the case, and Slavic languages were originally spoken in a much smaller area.]
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/general/ie-lg/Balto-Slavic.html
"A Celtic–Thracian kingdom existed in Thrace in 279–213 BC. The following Celtic movement eastwards resulted apparently in the destruction of Olbia and its chora, and consequently in the economic crisis of the poleis (Ruban 1985, 43–4).Strabo’s reference to the Getae, Tiragetae and Bastarnae between the Danube and the Don could be considered as indirect evidence of these events."
https://www.academia.edu/3255349/_2013_The_Sarmatians_The_Creation_of_Archaeological_Evidence
Now speaking of Getae:Burebista was without any doubt a Thracian guy;he descends from a group of warriors (called padea-panggiurski-kolonii,that displays Thracian and Thraco-Celtic material culture), who reached at least as far as SE Poland.
This elite originally had its headquarters in N and NW Bulgaria,SW Romania and E Serbia;The Romanians (and perhaps the Albanians) owe a lot of things to this group.
But from the Getae land(northern half of Bulgaria and S Romania),we also have Eastern-type Animal Style art and golden helmets with Mithraic symbols.
The Getae were ,in the same time, farmers and mounted archers(Thucydides,Ovid).
http://universitypublishingonline.o...bid=CBO9781139054331&cid=CBO9781139054331A023
http://trakia-tours.com/the-treasure-of-letnitsa-treasures-8.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmet_of_Coţofeneşti
Reconstructed Getae chiftain from S Romania(Osprey Publishing):
Dianatomia
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Well, let me be more clear. I never said that there are huge differences between Turks and Greeks genetically. I mentioned that genetically a clear Greco-Anatolian connection can be detected from before the Turkish arrival. However, given the fact that they are direct neighbors, they are considerable far apart on an Autosomal scale.
Aberdeen
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Dianatomia, if you go back and read the comments by Clarissant that I was addressing (such as post #406), you'll see that Clarissant was taking the view that Britain and Turkey were more like one another genetically than Turkey was like Greece, and that simply isn't the case. Yes, there are big differences in the genetics of Greece and Turkey, but when it comes to genetics, Turkey more closely resembles Greece than any other European country. Please try to keep up, rather than trying to address things I didn't say.
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Besa
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Hope that clarifies my argument for you a bit more
I replied to your comment, but lost it... anyway it was about messapians (illyrians) living in todays south italy, apulia region and how this region is short of I2a dinaric and more of ev-13 and j2, a shorter one and different post:
... if albania is not in illyria, where did albanians come from? and the state of albania doesn't compromise all albanian populated places... albania was a state created in 1912 by western powers, these are made up borders... Albania in 14th century was bigger and divided between clans and was not called albania... but rather principalities... When the west created Albania the rest of Albanian inhabited lands were givesn to slavs even though these lands were majorly Albanian... from 1912 atleast 600,000 Albanians were deported to turkey... the deportation of Albanians to turkey began in 1912... Albanians in sandzak were deported to turkey by slavs and so were the ones in Kosovo... so millions of turks have Albanian origin... millions of turks have bosniak muslim, origin, serb muslim origin, greek muslim origin... because all these people either movd or were deported by christian authorities to turkey.... so you're theory is actually invalid about turks...
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Besa
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I can't edit my post so I'll edit it here, some errors...
I replied to your comment, but lost it... anyway it was about messapians (illyrians) living in todays south italy, apulia region and how this region is short of I2a dinaric and more of ev-13 and j2, also how greeks would be higher in i2a since they were neighbors of ancient illyrians and thracians... a shorter one and different post:
... if albania is not in illyria, where did albanians come from? your argument about this doesn't even make any sense.. its like you assume Albanians somehow originated in Albania but it doesn't compromise illyria thererfor not illyrians... Albanians live in montenegro, the malesia, most of them are catholics who kept the ottomans away, yet their land was given to slavs in 1912.. cities like ulcin, are albanian cities created by illyrians... it comes from the Albanian word ulk/ujk which means wolf. and the state of albania doesn't compromise all albanian populated places... albania was a state created in 1912 by western powers, these are made up borders... Albania in 14th century was bigger and divided between clans and was not called albania... but rather principalities... When the west created Albania the rest of Albanian inhabited lands were givesn to slavs even though these lands were majorly Albanian... from 1912 to the 1960's millions of Albanians from Kosovo were deported to turkey by slav authorities... the deportation of Albanians to turkey began in 1912... Albanians in sandzak were deported to turkey by slavs and so were the ones in Kosovo... so millions of turks have Albanian origin... millions of turks have bosniak muslim, origin, serb muslim origin, greek muslim origin... because all these people either movd or were deported by christian authorities to turkey.... so you're theory is actually invalid about turks..
As for Albanians most of the illyrian names and cities even in Croatia and Bosnia have meaning in Albanian.... like dalmatae, which apparently comes from illyrian word delme, which meant sheep, its the same in Albanian... it wasn't unusual for illyrians to use names of animals and fruits... like the ancient name of the city dubrovnik: ragusa... from alb: rrush which means grape
I replied to your comment, but lost it... anyway it was about messapians (illyrians) living in todays south italy, apulia region and how this region is short of I2a dinaric and more of ev-13 and j2, also how greeks would be higher in i2a since they were neighbors of ancient illyrians and thracians... a shorter one and different post:
... if albania is not in illyria, where did albanians come from? your argument about this doesn't even make any sense.. its like you assume Albanians somehow originated in Albania but it doesn't compromise illyria thererfor not illyrians... Albanians live in montenegro, the malesia, most of them are catholics who kept the ottomans away, yet their land was given to slavs in 1912.. cities like ulcin, are albanian cities created by illyrians... it comes from the Albanian word ulk/ujk which means wolf. and the state of albania doesn't compromise all albanian populated places... albania was a state created in 1912 by western powers, these are made up borders... Albania in 14th century was bigger and divided between clans and was not called albania... but rather principalities... When the west created Albania the rest of Albanian inhabited lands were givesn to slavs even though these lands were majorly Albanian... from 1912 to the 1960's millions of Albanians from Kosovo were deported to turkey by slav authorities... the deportation of Albanians to turkey began in 1912... Albanians in sandzak were deported to turkey by slavs and so were the ones in Kosovo... so millions of turks have Albanian origin... millions of turks have bosniak muslim, origin, serb muslim origin, greek muslim origin... because all these people either movd or were deported by christian authorities to turkey.... so you're theory is actually invalid about turks..
As for Albanians most of the illyrian names and cities even in Croatia and Bosnia have meaning in Albanian.... like dalmatae, which apparently comes from illyrian word delme, which meant sheep, its the same in Albanian... it wasn't unusual for illyrians to use names of animals and fruits... like the ancient name of the city dubrovnik: ragusa... from alb: rrush which means grape
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Besa
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Like the Dukagjini principality. it covered most of east Kosovo, which Albanians call Dukagjin while Serbs call it metohija...
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