Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

[Cobol19]

yes but I2a1 found in site old 5.000 years cant be father of I2a1b

I did not say that those samples were the fathers, I meant to say that I2a1 is the father of I2a1b in general, and it was found in the western parts, meaning for all we know, the I2a1 folks might have expanded from west to east rather than the other way around.

 

[Alan]

hey cobol19 I found another Kurd with I*. He is from Sulaymaniah Iraq/Iran border. His Ydna is I2b1* mtdna U1a1. Is that the Kurd you meant with I2*?

There is another Kurd from the same city with yDNA T and mtDNA HV.

 

[Cobol19]

hey cobol19 I found another Kurd with I*. He is from Sulaymaniah Iraq/Iran border. His Ydna is I2b1* mtdna U1a1. Is that the Kurd you meant with I2*?

There is another Kurd from the same city with yDNA T and mtDNA HV.

If you're talking about the one from the Harrappa project, then yea, that's the one I guess, so far, here's the Y-DNA frequency for those who tested with 23andMe:

J1c3
R1a1a
R2a
G2a
I2a1
E1b1b1c1a
T

 

[Alan]

If you're talking about the one from the Harrappa project, then yea, that's the one I guess, so far, here's the Y-DNA frequency for those who tested with 23andMe:


J1c3
R1a1a
R2a
G2a
I2a1
E1b1b1c1a
T

is I2a1 the new name of I2b1* or is it a different subgroup. Dont know if he is on the Harrapa project but man R1a1a* seems to be a very frequent Haplogroup among Kurds.
Going by importance, from the studies and individuals seen so far. Haplogroup R1a1a*, I* and J2 seem to be the most significant Haplogroups followed by R1b, E1b*, J1* and to lesser degree G2a. rather small significant are T, R2a, Q.

 

[Bodin]

I did not say that those samples were the fathers, I meant to say that I2a1 is the father of I2a1b in general, and it was found in the western parts, meaning for all we know, the I2a1 folks might have expanded from west to east rather than the other way around.

Yes but that would hapen some 12-17.000 year ago , and it has nothing to do with I2a1b being on Balkans since Paleolithe - this theory that you trying to defend is imposible . I2a1b probably migrated several time during that period ( it is realy long period)

 

[Bodin]

That I2a1 that was found in Treilles was eather I2a1b or I2a1a , not I2a1*( X I2a1b , I2a1a) , and most probably it was I2a1a ( Sardinian ) and his descendants are still present on that aeria aldo in small percentage

 

[Bodin]

If you're talking about the one from the Harrappa project, then yea, that's the one I guess, so far, here's the Y-DNA frequency for those who tested with 23andMe:

J1c3
R1a1a
R2a
G2a
I2a1
E1b1b1c1a
T

So there are confirmed Kurds with I2a1 ?

 

[Alan]

So there are confirmed Kurds with I2a1 ?

yes I2a* and I2b also an I1. But this is rather strange because I1 is North European from my knowledge.

I know about 13 tested Kurds so far.

J1*= 2
E1b*= 1
G2a* = 2
R1a1a* = 3
I* = 3
T = 1
R1b = 1

 

[Bodin]

yes I2a* and I2b also an I1. But this is rather strange because I1 is North European from my knowledge.

Well it is from North Europe , but they moved to south a lot . Serbs and Croats have 7% of I1 each , and it is probably from Goths and Saxons ( settled like miners XIII - XV century) . Where from was that I1 - it could be residue eather from Galatians , or Varangians , or some other Germanic nation thet took service in Byzantine army

 

[razor]

Well it is from North Europe , but they moved to south a lot . Serbs and Croats have 7% of I1 each , and it is probably from Goths and Saxons ( settled like miners XIII - XV century) . Where from was that I1 - it could be residue eather from Galatians , or Varangians , or some other Germanic nation thet took service in Byzantine army

Or even from the Bastarnae who migrated into Dardania from the Dnister basin in 29 BCE

 

[Bodin]

Or even from the Bastarnae who migrated into Dardania from the Dnister basin in 29 BCE

Yes posibly , but Bastarnae are quite enigma , they name say it all ( bastards , from mixed origins ) . They could be Germanic or Celtoi , probably with lot of Sarmathian and Scythian genetic influence . Also core of Serbian settlement was not in Dardania .Serbs entering Dardania ( Kosovo , South Serbia , North Macedonia ) first time in XI century during raids of župan Vukan , and they starting to settle there in XII century ( 600 years after arriving on Balkans ). So I would stick with Goths ( esspecialy core of Ostrogoth commoners stayed on Balkans , while only nobility moved to Italy at the end of V century )and Sasi-Saxons , they certainly had some R1a to - and it further decrease Slavic influence on Balkans.

 

[razor]

Yes but that would hapen some 12-17.000 year ago , and it has nothing to do with I2a1b being on Balkans since Paleolithe - this theory that you trying to defend is imposible . I2a1b probably migrated several time during that period ( it is realy long period)

But isn't what really matters the TMRCA? And we are talking about I2a1b1 not I2a1b. The wanderings of I2a1b are interesting (if wholly speculative). But Nortdvedt has apparently proved that I2a1b1's TMRCA is about 2520 years old. That's 500 BCE. And that's when we start with one mutated individual. How long would it take for that patriarch to produce enough descendants to make an impact in terms of population? Nordtvedt further argues (though he still is open to argument here) that this MRCA lived north of the Danube and that I2a1b1(N) is older than I2a1b1(S) (he does not say by how much). Verenic's claims are even more precise. Unfortunately I only have his conclusions not the specific evidence because the administrator of the website where this is available has not yet permitted me to consult the stuff. Here is the address: http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=15055&page=4 In any case, if Nordtvedt and Verenic are right, the Sarmatians are out of the picture as originators of I2a1b1, since they were powerfully active long before its MRCA produced enough descendants to make a difference.

 

[razor]

I have the latest archaeological info about the Bastarnae (Pashkova's masterwork of 2006). There's nothing enigmatic about the ones who left Moldavia in 29 BCE: they were Germanics of the Poeneshti-Lukashovka archaeological culture. And by Dardania I also mean neighbouring areas. Although I agree that other components could easily have contributed the I1.

 

[Cobol19]

Finally, we have Ossetian autosomal samples:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...owN3M3UWRyNnc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0

The results for the Ossetians, Kurds, and Iranians are the following (The Kurds and Iranians have two values because they both have 2 different population samples from two different studies):

Component - Ossetians - Kurds - Iranians
Eastern European = 7.2% - 4.1%/3.6% - 3.9%/2.1%
Western European = 14.1% - 7.4%/8% - 6%/5%
Mediterranean = 17.7% - 19.8%/21% - 15.4%/14.9%
Neo African = 0% - 0%/0% - 0.2%/1.4%
West Asian = 45.8% - 42.1%/42.5% - 49.3%/45.4%
South Asian = 4% - 10%/9.3% - 9.8%/10.7%
Northeast Asian = 4.4% - 1.3%/0.8% - 2%/1.2%
Southeast Asian = 3.1% - 0.5%/0% - 1.5%/0.7%
East African = 0% - 0.5%/0% - 0.1%/0.8%
Southwest Asian = 3.7% - 14%/14.2% - 11.7%/16.7%
Northwest African = 0% - 0.3%/0.2% - 0.1%/0.3%
Palaeo African = 0% - 0%/0.1% - 0%/0.9%

The colored components seem to be the biggest difference between the Kurds/Iranians and the Ossetians, this makes the Ossetians a little distant in genetics, they tend to carry more European and East Asian genes, while the Kurds and Iranians seem to carry more Southwest Asian and South Asian genes.

Also here are the Tajik values:
Eastern European = 8.8%
Western European = 16.2%
Mediterranean = 10%
Neo African = 0%
West Asian = 28.2%
South Asian = 17.4%
Northeast Asian = 7.9%
Southeast Asian = 7.4%
East African = 0%
Southwest Asian = 3.9%
Northwest African = 0%
Palaeo African = 0%

 

[Bodin]

But isn't what really matters the TMRCA? And we are talking about I2a1b1 not I2a1b. The wanderings of I2a1b are interesting (if wholly speculative). But Nortdvedt has apparently proved that I2a1b1's TMRCA is about 2520 years old. That's 500 BCE. And that's when we start with one mutated individual. How long would it take for that patriarch to produce enough descendants to make an impact in terms of population? Nordtvedt further argues (though he still is open to argument here) that this MRCA lived north of the Danube and that I2a1b1(N) is older than I2a1b1(S) (he does not say by how much). Verenic's claims are even more precise. Unfortunately I only have his conclusions not the specific evidence because the administrator of the website where this is available has not yet permitted me to consult the stuff. Here is the address: http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=15055&page=4 In any case, if Nordtvedt and Verenic are right, the Sarmatians are out of the picture as originators of I2a1b1, since they were powerfully active long before its MRCA produced enough descendants to make a difference.

Yes but I2a1b N and S are present in both aerias south and north of Danube , so there is not clear diference , they could evolve in Sarmathians and slovly supress they ancestor haplogroup

 

[Alan]

Finally, we have Ossetian autosomal samples:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...owN3M3UWRyNnc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0

The results for the Ossetians, Kurds, and Iranians are the following (The Kurds and Iranians have two values because they both have 2 different population samples from two different studies):

Component - Ossetians - Kurds - Iranians
Eastern European = 7.2% - 4.1%/3.6% - 3.9%/2.1%
Western European = 14.1% - 7.4%/8% - 6%/5%
Mediterranean = 17.7% - 19.8%/21% - 15.4%/14.9%
Neo African = 0% - 0%/0% - 0.2%/1.4%
West Asian = 45.8% - 42.1%/42.5% - 49.3%/45.4%
South Asian = 4% - 10%/9.3% - 9.8%/10.7%
Northeast Asian = 4.4% - 1.3%/0.8% - 2%/1.2%
Southeast Asian = 3.1% - 0.5%/0% - 1.5%/0.7%
East African = 0% - 0.5%/0% - 0.1%/0.8%
Southwest Asian = 3.7% - 14%/14.2% - 11.7%/16.7%
Northwest African = 0% - 0.3%/0.2% - 0.1%/0.3%
Palaeo African = 0% - 0%/0.1% - 0%/0.9%

The colored components seem to be the biggest difference between the Kurds/Iranians and the Ossetians, this makes the Ossetians a little distant in genetics, they tend to carry more European and East Asian genes, while the Kurds and Iranians seem to carry more Southwest Asian and South Asian genes.

The taken samples of the new Yunusbay Study seen as Kurd_Y in Dodecad are from Kurds in Central Asia. Their place of origin is North West Iran and Azerbaijan. Very interesting how similar they still are to other Kurds and differ from Central Asians.

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=503909&postcount=5000

Another thing which I already knew and was again proven. interestingly those Groups who have high West/East European, also score high South Asian(ANI). The Armenian_Y samples have unusual high West European(6%) and at the same time unusual high South Asian (4,2% while average 1-2%). The same with Lithuanians. In the new admixture program Russians as well Lithuanians score some unusual South Asian. It seems like how much South Asian someone gets depends on what is taken as reference Group.

 

[Cobol19]

The taken samples of the new Study seen as Kurd_Y in Dodecad are from Kurds in Central Asia. Their place of origin is North West Iran and Azerbaijan. Very interesting how similar they still are to other Kurds and differ from Central Asians.

Yea, these are Kurds from West Asia, look at the results with the other Kurdish samples who tested with 23andMe, they have almost exactly the same values, maybe these are Kurds that migrated to this region during the USSR days which is not uncommon.

Another thing which I already knew and was again proven. interestingly those Groups who have high West/East European, also score high South Asian(ANI). The Armenian_Y samples have unusual high West European(6%) and at the same time unusual high South Asian (4,2% while average 1-2%). The same with Lithuanians. In the new admixture program Russians as well Lithuanians score some unusual South Asian. It seems like how much South Asian someone gets depends on what is taken as reference Group.

Check out my post again, I posted the Tajiks, I said this all along, South Asian + West Asian must have been the natives that existed in South Central Asia before mixing with the Andronovo folks who were probably mostly of European genes (East + West).

 

[Alan]

Yea, these are Kurds from West Asia, look at the results with the other Kurdish samples who tested with 23andMe, they have almost exactly the same values, maybe these are Kurds that migrated to this region during the USSR days which is not uncommon.

Check out my post again, I posted the Tajiks, I said this all along, South Asian + West Asian must have been the natives that existed in South Central Asia before mixing with the Andronovo folks who were probably mostly of European genes (East + West).

Thats what I wrote. They were originally from Northwest Iran and Azerbaijan settled in Kazakhstan by Stalin. And it is very interesting how still they have no genetic input from Central Asians (though living there more than 70 years).

Here a documentation about them

Kurds from Khorasan(Iran) have been somehow influenced by natives because they live there for more than 700 years.

 

[Bodin]

I have the latest archaeological info about the Bastarnae (Pashkova's masterwork of 2006). There's nothing enigmatic about the ones who left Moldavia in 29 BCE: they were Germanics of the Poeneshti-Lukashovka archaeological culture. And by Dardania I also mean neighbouring areas. Although I agree that other components could easily have contributed the I1.

Yes they have some Germanic elements , but also lot of Celtic( strong influence of La Tene) , and Scythians ( they lived nomadic - when they crossing Danube they do it in the carts ) . Around Zvonigrad there was almoust identical culture to Dacians - so they were probably very mixed. And Roman influence was realy strong .And that settling in 29 BC was not realy extensive - most of them stayed on previous positions

 

[Alan]

Check out my post again, I posted the Tajiks, I said this all along, South Asian + West Asian must have been the natives that existed in South Central Asia before mixing with the Andronovo folks who were probably mostly of European genes (East + West).

South Asian as a Gene doesent really exist the only thing I see is some populations taken as reference which mainly belong to West Asian-North European (ANI) and South Indian (ASI) components. Thats why those groups who score high East/West European also score high ANI. It all depends on the definition and reference population.