Should people learn the language of the country where they travel ?

[Maciamo]

My boss has been in Japan for about 35 years and he can't speak a lick of Japanese. He's also married to Japanese and has been for about 30 years. I mean, besides saying like Konnichiwa or Domo....that sums up his entire experience in Japan.

I am sincerely sorry for this guy. But why did your company recruit a mentally handicapped person for this job ? Is he a kind of "savant" (in the psychological meaning) with exceptional abilities in one field and completely retarded for the rest ? It cannot be lazyness in that case. Even without ever learning a language, just hearing it everyday because you live in a country is enough for normally constituated people to understand it after a few years. A person in a managerial position should be intelligent enough to become fluent within 3 years without taking lessons, even arriving in Japan with a zero-level of Japanese.

 

[Buddha Smoker]

I am sincerely sorry for this guy. But why did your company recruit a mentally handicapped person for this job ? Is he a kind of "savant" (in the psychological meaning) with exceptional abilities in one field and completely retarded for the rest ? It cannot be lazyness in that case. Even without ever learning a language, just hearing it everyday because you live in a country is enough for normally constituated people to understand it after a few years. A person in a managerial position should be intelligent enough to become fluent within 3 years without taking lessons, even arriving in Japan with a zero-level of Japanese.

Well, I/we deal with alot of foreigner (mainly American & Philipinos) and English is the primary language. So, to be honest, not that many Japanese to deal with and the ones that do then they usually speak English fluently and if not then he makes me talk to them. I can understand why he doesn't from our work stand point but from the area/living/community/family point of view, I can't.

 

[yimija]

sorry, Lina

Not quite, three languages "only": German, French and Italian. German has the biggest part (64%), and German is also the language all the documents are in and so on, and it's pretty much spoken in all three parts, so you could get by only speaking German and be only hindered by the funny Swiss accent (Schwyzerd?tsch). The second biggest part (19%) is French. You probably know the Nestle group which has grown quite big by now, which is located in the French part (Vevey, to be exact). The third part, finally, is the Italian part. (percentages taken from Ethnologe)

Sorry Lina, but you are wrong on 2 counts : 1 : The constitution of Switzerland is clear (and that document knows what it is talking about) all the paperwork HAS to be translated in FOUR LANGUAGES, (and they all are without exception schwytzerd?tch is NOT mor official than the other three) since ther ARE 4 national & official languages. 2)The visible part is : all swiss Federal banknotes have allways been..., are.. and will be printed in 4 languages. You juste too quickly dissmissed and forgot the Romanche language which is still talked, learned at school and spoken, even if it's a minority. Make sure you get all the facts and change a 10 swiss frank note, you'll see easily.

I wouldn't be as positive about Europeans learning each other's languages. It all depends, really.

As for the original question, I would differentiate between tourism & a longer stay.

I absolutely dislike some forms of mass tourism. As in the case of many Germans travelling to Majorca in Spain.

Yes 1) you are right, the french are a little bit lazy at learning foreign language specially english. There must be some kind of ancestral rivalry...

Yes 2) You have to make that difference, and that seems to be logical.

NO 3) Majorca in not in Spain anymore, it is allready in Germany since many years. You can even eat bratw?rst. Bye bye Pa?lla !!!

I think you make a good point but you still have to give it to the person for trying and making the attempt to be open-minded.

Yes, I'll agree with that, to me it's called respect and integration. (when in Rome do as the roman do... or at least try not to hurt their feelings). You DON'T HAVE TO BE an Italian if you go to Italy, but it does not hurt to learn to say hello, thank you and "parla inglese, per favore ? " (do you speak english, please?). It will also help to understand and /or make you feel closer to the way of life.

I am sincerely sorry for this guy.

A person in a managerial position should be intelligent enough to become fluent within 3 years without taking lessons, even arriving in Japan with a zero-level of Japanese.

I dont feel sorry for him, I think he might just be "too good" to make the effort. I have known quiet a few of those. They will usually end up being very unhappy, but will never be able to admit it. And as it is the case here, the others will have to make do with him.
But even if he is in a managerial position, it proves and demonstrates that some of our leader are not all that intelligent... (we all know a few that are not, but not all...)

 

[Buddha Smoker]

Yes, I'll agree with that, to me it's called respect and integration. (when in Rome do as the roman do... or at least try not to hurt their feelings). You DON'T HAVE TO BE an Italian if you go to Italy, but it does not hurt to learn to say hello, thank you and "parla inglese, per favore ? " (do you speak english, please?). It will also help to understand and /or make you feel closer to the way of life.

Here here. *tips cup for drink* Salute.

I dont feel sorry for him, I think he might just be "too good" to make the effort. I have known quiet a few of those. They will usually end up being very unhappy, but will never be able to admit it. And as it is the case here, the others will have to make do with him.

When I have asked him or brought it up in casual conversation...I always get the excuse. Well, my wife always wanted me to speak English so she would practice and learn. Also, now I'm too old and what would I use it for?

I'm always thinking to myself.........at least he is trying to make an excuse but it still doesn't "cut the mustard" for me. But, then again not everybody is us and are entitled to their own opinion (even if we don't agree).

But even if he is in a managerial position, it proves and demonstrates that some of our leader are not all that intelligent... (we all know a few that are not, but not all...)

This is so true...except for the few part....it's alot more than a few.

 

[playaa]

OK!! My turn, being I am an American, I speak English only, and I am sitting here in the middle of Tokyo writing this reply.

I do not think it is your obligation nore is it even courtious to learn the language of the country you are going to.

The only time that it is courtious is in these situations,

You have problems realizing that you cannot just walk up to a native and speak in your language.
You are marrying a native.
You are MOVING not visiting to the country.
OR you are staying for a long time.

other then that, learning the language is only a disadvantage to you. As I only know very basic Japanese, (I tried learning 6 months ahead of time before I came) As kirei said, as an American we did not get the language course opportunities as other countries.. In High School I was made to take French, that was the only foreign language course offered. In middle school it was Spanish. But reading from a book, and learning to pronounce sentences in the language class for your grade does not teach you how to speak fluently.

So no it is not your obligation, though I am for being multilangual.

AND By the way, when I mean disadvantage...

When you are somewhere where noone speaks english and if they do its 1-4 words. Nothing is in english except maybe a few directions here and there.

Imagine yourself being 6 months old in the same body you are now, you cannot speak or read anymore nore can you write. Noone understands you, you understand noone, and you cannote read or write. Basically all you can do is see and point, that is how you will feel when coming to a foreign country without knowing the language.

Trust me it is not fun, and I know basic Japanese and still feel this way.

 

[chiquiliquis]

I think multilingualism has little to do with the question of learning the language of the country where you travel. You could have learned languages all your life and speak 50 languages, but still not the one of the country where you are going.

As for learning the local language being a courtesy, that also depends of your ability level. Imagine, if you go to Norway and try to speak Norwegian but can't even pronounce a word correctly, while most people speak very well English can be irritating for the locals who will immidiately switch to English. In France, if you have a strong accent or visibly can't make a sentence, many people will not even try to understand you. So you'd be better off with English again with younger people. At least they will have to force themselves not to admit that they can't speak English (as many people can but just don't want).

What do you want to understand by "multilingualism"?

I could sit at a desk for three years and memorize all things syntactical, grammatical, and lexical in regard to the Latin language... I might even say that at the end of that process, I was functionally fluent in Latin.

Suppose after my three years, I went to Rome.

Language is more than syntax, grammar, and vocab. It's about communication. Syntax, grammar, and vocab, a good communicator make not.

Multilingualism (for me), is about openness to verying methods of communication. When in Rome, I need more than "Latin" to communicate... I need the right mindset... or openness to transcend beyond the so-called "parts" of language.

I would rather head to Rome with no knowledge of Latin, but an openness to communication, rather than go having mastered Latin, but no oppenness to transcending the "language". I think I would have more fun--and the Romans would probably be more forgiving in my inability to pronounce the language as they do (when I finally started learning).

Still, having a grasp of Latin, is a good foot in the door towards that end of opening my mind.

This is why I think multilingualism is pertinent to the question at hand. Multilingualism is about being open to multiple methods of communication... not just language.

 

[bossel]

Being experienced in travelling and learning languages, I will have to disagree with that. I see your point for European tourist travelling to European/American countries, as it is in fact quite easy to learn the other country's language (same word order, same alphabet, similar expresions, similar words...). But there are countries where it is just impossible to learn anything useful if you are just going there for a few days or a week.

Then, in many Asian and African countries, their are dozens if not hundreds of local languages, many of which have no travellers's phrasebooks. India has over 800 languages (17 official) and the most widely understood nationwide is English. In that case, it is useless trying to learn Hindi, Bengali, Maharati, Tamil or Malayalam as you are not even sure the people in the region where one language is official will actually speak it, as there are many others.

You are right, of course. But I really see it as what you called courtesy. If you go abroad you should at least be able to understand & speak some basic stuff. Nothing elaborate, just things like "Where is the toilet?". Or as Yimija said: "parla inglese, per favore ? ".
& (I think, I mentioned it) you don't have to learn it by heart. It's enough if you are able to talk with the help of a guidebook.

What we in Germany call "Pauschaltouristen" (you only have to pay your travel agency & they provide everything, from hotel to interpreter) are a special case. Since they probably won't have much of a contact to the local population, it would be futile to learn the language.

As for local or regional languages, I suppose in most cases the national language should suffice.

NO 3) Majorca in not in Spain anymore, it is allready in Germany since many years. You can even eat bratw?rst. Bye bye Pa?lla !!!

Yeah, isn't it wonderful? Some here in Germany even proposed to make it a province!

 

[yimija]

travelling

The only time that it is courtious is in these situations,

You have problems realizing that you cannot just walk up to a native and speak in your language.

Well, I don't agree with you and you gave yourself the one and only motivation to my disagreement which I have quoted just above.
If you go on a trip (holiday or work) in a foreign country and you are NOT able to talk to the natives, then you better stay home, ther is nothing to see AND understand. Going to a country and completely disregard the population, to me it's like going through the desert without water.

I could sit at a desk for three years and memorize all things syntactical, grammatical, and lexical in regard to the Latin language... I might even say that at the end of that process, I was functionally fluent in Latin.

Suppose after my three years, I went to Rome.

Well, if I might make a recomandation : if you want to go to Rome, don't bother to learn Latin nobody will understand you (excepted a few doctors, pharmacists, chemists and a few other specializes scientifics, in all an extremely small part of population).
Better learn italian. They'll read you loud and clear.

Nothing elaborate, just things like "Where is the toilet?". Or as Yimija said: "parla inglese, per favore ? ".

Well, that particular last sentence is ok in Italy, not in Egypte or Danmark... LOL

(I think, I mentioned it) you don't have to learn it by heart. It's enough if you are able to talk with the help of a guidebook.

Yes, it's right

Since they probably won't have much of a contact to the local population, it would be futile to learn the language.

Isn't that a terrible shame ??? Travelling anywhere around the world ignoring the local population should be condemned as a major offence... :haihai:

 

[Buddha Smoker]

Well, I don't agree with you and you gave yourself the one and only motivation to my disagreement which I have quoted just above.
If you go on a trip (holiday or work) in a foreign country and you are NOT able to talk to the natives, then you better stay home, ther is nothing to see AND understand. Going to a country and completely disregard the population, to me it's like going through the desert without water.

I can understand your point of view BUT wouldn't you think it is better to see a little and open your eyes/mind then to stay at home and done nothing.

As the Buddha says "It is the first ripple in the pond". :bow:

 

[chiquiliquis]

Well, if I might make a recomandation : if you want to go to Rome, don't bother to learn Latin nobody will understand you (excepted a few doctors, pharmacists, chemists and a few other specializes scientifics, in all an extremely small part of population).
Better learn italian. They'll read you loud and clear.

HAH kashii:

That is a really good point!!!

But still, I chose latin, first... because it has been a language that was historically studied for it's form, and not it's communicative value (unless in the business of translating).

And I suppose, in an odd way, I was following up on the expression "when in rome"... which I believe dates back to a time when Latin was actually spoken in Rome (or was at least coined in the context of the Roman empire).

But thanks for noting the temporal discognizance (is that a word) in my post. I will be sure to take your advice, if I decide to head to Rome tomorrow.

By the way... if there is anyone out there that actually knows the true origin of the expression ('when in rome...'), I would be glad to find out... The phrase is a bit before my time...

 

[yimija]

still here but for 3 minutes... and it's free of charge !

By the way... if there is anyone out there that actually knows the true origin of the expression ('when in rome...'), I would be glad to find out... The phrase is a bit before my time...

you're lucky (if I might say so...) I'm still hanging on my laptop for another 3 minutes... LOL ... There is your explanation it's in french (but good for you) and the complete citation :

"" Lorsque tu es ? Rome, vis ? la romaine; si tu te trouves ailleurs, vis comme on le fait ailleurs. Mais lorsque tu es ? Rome, fais comme les Romains. (Traduction libre) ""
and it's from (the name of the culprit) :
- Saint-Ambroise (Aurelius Ambrosius, v. 340-397 ap. J.-C.) ==

It says : When in Rome live the Roman's way; if you find yourself elsewhere, live as they are living elsewhere. But when you are in Rome, do as Romans do.

See you all Tuesday or wednesday... or ???

 

[Maciamo]

Well, if I might make a recomandation : if you want to go to Rome, don't bother to learn Latin nobody will understand you

That would be fun to try and speak Latin to some Italians (or French or Spanish speakers, for that matter) in the street. They would be wondering if you had travelled through time and landed in the 21st century. Imagine talking to the Japanese in yamato-kotoba. :?

 

[bossel]

Isn't that a terrible shame ??? Travelling anywhere around the world ignoring the local population should be condemned as a major offence... :haihai:

Ah, how harsh you are. :worried:

It all depends, really. Personally, I would always want to stay at a place not only to visit some historical sites, but also to get to know a bit about the current state of affairs. But if you go somewhere just to learn about some ancient stuff, you wouldn't really need to know the recent stuff.
I think, it's a pity to ignore the people that now live where the ancients once roamed, but, well, it all depends.

 

[yimija]

latin in Rome

That would be fun to try and speak Latin to some Italians (or French or Spanish speakers, for that matter) in the street. They would be wondering if you had travelled through time and landed in the 21st century. Imagine talking to the Japanese in yamato-kotoba. :?

well, I don't speak latin, nor do I speak yamat-kotoba but that doesn't stop me from going to Italy and thoroughly enjoying all of it...
But you can always "spice" it (or make it more complicated) by using a "dead tongue".

 

[Cimmerianbloke]

Got great food for thought here. As our moderator, I am well versed in the science of learning languages and extensive travelling. I have lived so far in 5 countries, worked as a receptionist and had my share of dealing with ethnocentric idiots. To the best of my knowledge, the French are the worse, closely followed by the English. But where it's pure laziness concerning the English, the French way is more complicated. The French still see their language as an expression of culture and sophistication. Speaking French is then a European social marker (although an american diplomat famously said "Who still speaks French anyway, apart from waiters and some african dictators?...).
From a personal point of view, I believe that living more than a few months in a place without learning its language and culture (both go together) is definitely a proof of narrow-mindedness and lack of respect for your host country. My personal experience taught me that learning the local language opens doors socially but also from a professional perspective. Some of my colleagues in Tarragona, Spain, were bitching about my recruitment as a receptionist, but I spoke Catalan and they didn't. Speaking Catalan in Catalonia is for me normal, and not some political statement. The rest of the hispanic world still needs to understand that.
Sadly, speaking a language and not another, or refusing to learn "the other"'s language is still a major issue in Europe (Catalonia, Basque country, Belgium). Europe is often seen as a multilingual heaven from the US, but the truth is that tensions are high in some places, and as in Northern Ireland in the 80s, languages are sometimes used as a political tool in a hidden agenda.
Some members have been quite defensive about the fact that they would not intend to learn the language of the country they live in. As for everything in life, choice should be a personal matter. Meeting people who are in the same situation and decided to do the contrary might change their mind.

 

[Sybilla]

Well, learning a whole language is impossible, but when I travel I always try to learn at least some words and phrases (and also when I meet a foreign people, whatever is his ethnicity). I consider it a sign of respect and also it helps me to understand that culture better and opens my mind. Also some languages express concept in different way (for exemple it's impossible to translate in English the colour that in the romance languages is called "azzurro" - a medium tone blue, usually refers to the colour of a fair sky).

 

[Antigone]

If it is of any interest, English uses the same word for that colour blue, azure.

The etymology of the word is, from Middle English azure, from Old French azur, from Medieval Latin azura, from Arabic al-lazaward, from Persian lajward (lapis lazuli).

 

[Reinaert]

What I don't ever see mentioned is the possibility of bi-directional use of language.

One directional is when I as a Dutchman speak English to an Englishman, Speak French to a Frenchman, and speak German to a German.
No wonder, those people aren't very interested in speaking Dutch.
One directional is also if I speak English in all other European states.

Bi-directional is when a German speaks German to me, and I answer in English.
This works in most multi language countries, except Great Britain and the USA of course.

By all means it's easier to understand another language, than to speak it.
So, you can use that.

An advise...
Don't try to speak a rather unknown language to police officers and the like.
They usually don't have your sense of humor, and they don't understand you what so ever!
So you are always on the losing side!

 

[himagain]

I use a phrasebook and speak in the local language as well as I can. A week is usually all the time I can take, but I always try to do my best. If I had six months in, say, France, I would be able to devote time to becoming semi-fluent in the language.

 

[veshali]

Hello,
I think one should learn the language of the place where they are travelling because they may stuck in a situation when it is necessary to know the native language. Recently I read a blog in which a Chinese tourist ended up in German Camp. Here is the link : dammann.com.au/blog/how-a-chinese-tourist-ended-up-in-a-german-refugee-camp/.