The Celts of Iberia

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Hello Smertrius:

First, about

What is a genetic bascoide substratum ? If you're refering to the various subclades of R1b I fear that you're mistaken. R1b subclades in Galicia are different from the ones found in the British Isles and Brittany.

"The peculiarities of the Galician population due to its geographical situation in western Europe, and its historical vicissitudes [...] Galicia is shown to be included in the Western-Central European cluster, together with other Spanish populations". Sequence diversity (0.939) and nucleotide diversity (0.0143) are, in general, slightly lower in the Galician population than in the rest ofthe European populations.

"A view of a ‘compact’ prehistoric Atlantic area is also confirmed by the most recent genetic research, which demonstrates that the genetic stock of Galician people is the same as that of the Irish, the Welsh, and the people of Cornwall, and goes back to the Palaeolithic: the name that geneticists have given to this marker is, not by chance, «Atlantic Modal Haplotype». (B. SYKES, Saxons, Vikings, and Celts. The Genetic Roots of Britain and Ireland, New York-London, W.W. Norton & Co., 2006, p. 162)

dna%20re1.gif


"The Celtic samples are very homogeneous—the modal haplotype [microsatellite haplotype 15 within hg 1 (haplotype 1.15)] has a frequency of 0.26 in Wales and 0.18 in Ireland--[...]. Haplotype 1.15 is also modal in the Basques and constitutes 0.41". In Galicia SNaPshot multiplexes reactions this frequency is 0.29 in the chromosomes which contains M173 (Eu18 or AMH).

map%20chiaroni%202009.jpg


looks to the dark blue in SW, NW, N and NE Spain.

Eu18 and Eu19 characterize about 50% of the European Y chromosomes.
Although they share M173, the two haplotypes show contrasting geographic distribution. The frequency of Eu18 decreases from west to east, being most frequent in Basques. This lineage includes the previously described proto-European lineage that is characterized by the 49a,f haplotype 15. In contrast, haplotype Eu19, which is derived from the M173 lineage and is distinguished by M17, is virtually absent in Western Europe. Its frequency increases eastward and reaches a maximum in Poland, Hungary, and Ukraine, where Eu18 in turn is virtually absent.(cf. Chiaroni Jacques; Underhill Peter A; Cavalli-Sforza Luca L.: Y chromosome diversity, human expansion, drift, and cultural evolution, 2009).

callaecia009002.jpg


Presence of the M269 marker or R1b3 is the subclade most closely corresponding to Haplotype 15. It is by far the most common in the Iberian Peninsula and the Balearic Islands (66%). It is also the most comun in Galicia 63% (Galician haplogroup-frequency 0.88: cf. Basque 1.16, NW Castilian 1.00, East Andalusia 0.95, Catalonia 0.80, South Portugal 0.78, etc.), with a very low presence of the iberian haplogroup R1b3f: 0.02.

Despite AMH alleles of Ireland seem to correspond better with the NE of Iberia, where R1b3f was a later mutation, that with the Iberian Atlantic facade and Basconia:

Irland, Huesca (Pyrenees), Valencia: DYS388 12, DYS390 24, DYS391 11, DYS392 13, DYS393 13, DYS19 14.
Basconia: DYS388 12, DYS390 24, DYS391 10, DYS392 13, DYS393 13, DYS19 14.
Galicia: DYS388 12, DYS390 23, DYS391 9, DYS392 11, DYS393 13, DYS19 14

"Sobre la base de la proporción de haplogrupos, las poblaciones de Barbagia, Galicia y País Vasco son significativamente diferentes del resto de las poblaciones analizadas. Basándose en las secuencias de mtDNA también se detectó una diferenciación importante de estas poblaciones así como las de las poblaciones de Galura Cerdeña y Cataluña [...] Todos los análisis realizados muestran que la población catalana esta más relacionada con otras poblaciones mediterráneas que con Galicia y el País Vasco". (D. Comas, 2004).

mtDNA analysis of the Galician population, its frequency of the reference sequence reaches in Galicians its maximum value in Europe.The results place Galicians on the genetic edge of the European variation, bringing together all the traits of a cul-de-sac population with a striking similarity to the Basque population.

callaecia009001.jpg


From later Cro-Magnon remains from southern Italy it has been found that early Europeans were of the mtDNA-Haplogroup HV or pre-HV with Celts and Basques being around 60% descendant mtDNA-Haplogroup H (Welsh 59.8%, Galicians 59.2%, Basques 57.8% Piedmont 56.8%, Valencians 53.33%).

Only the Insular Celtic languages and occidental names of god epithets of Iberia show evidence of a Afro-Asiatic substrate "grammar without vocabulary" influence (syntactic order, plurality of plurals, etc.) which may have arisen in the coastal Neolithic enclaves among the then hunter-gatherer Berbers of the Maghreb.

So HLA A2-B7-DR15 (caucasian common haplotype; cf. Glenys Thomson and Richard Single: "Biostatistical Analyses of Population Level Data for the 14th IHIWS", 2008): They were responsible for the common genetic base that one has been in Iberian and paleonorthafricans (hamitians). "The appendation of the B7-DQ6 haplotype creates the A2-B7-DQ6 haplotype". This haplotype if found often in Northern and Western Spain, Portugal and SW of Britain;also in Austria, Switzerland, Netherlands, Germany show a significant incidence.

So HLA A29-Cw16-B44-DR7-DQ2 (caucasian common haplotype; cf. Glenys Thomson and Richard Single: "Biostatistical Analyses of Population Level Data for the 14th IHIWS", 2008): The highest frequencies tend to be coastal countries along the Atlantic. The Cw16 allele is undoubtedly derived from Western Africa a substantial contribution as far north as Ireland. The high frequency of this haplotype is a marker of the old west European of the West, including a Portuguese, Basque and NW Spaniards; also it is common in Irish, South of England and West of France.

Hamitians or bereberes is old caucasian population, paleoeuropeans.

Ok?
 
Last edited:
No it's not ok:

1) R1b doesn't originate in Spain but in Asia.

2) -M173 is R1
-M17 is R1a
-M269 is R1b1b2

We all (R1b Europeans) belong to the Atlantic Modal Haplotype. You have to look closer for the various subsclades of M269 and other haplogroups to differenciate Europeans, doing so you'll see that the main subsclade in the British Isles and Brittany is R1b-L21 (not significantly found in Galicia) while in Galicia it is E-M81 (not significantly found in Brittany, Ireland or Britain).

3) H3 and H1 represent 28% of the Mtdna in Spain, 26% in Portugal, 20% in Ireland, but also 21% in Finland or 30% in Norway. What kind of proof is it ? MtDNA is actually not significant enough to distinguish European peoples from one another. We all have more or less the same proportion of each subsclade.

4) About the first HLA Haplotype: What's its percentage in the different countries where it's found ?
You say it's often found in Spain, Britain and Portugal, but also significant in the Netherland, Germany, Austria and Switzerland. How do you expect to prove your point when you quote an haplotyple significantly found in both Western and Central Europe ?

The second HLA Haplotype has its highest frequency in Western Europe (NW Spaniards, Basques, Portugueses, Irish, Southern English and Western French), indicating a possible link between Atlantic countries and North Africans. Why not, but once again what about its overall importance ?
A genetic map of France using HLA markers has been drawn in 2002, and Brittany is dramatically different from SW France (the lecture here, the maps there).
In fact, be it using HLA or Y-DNA, Brittany is the opposite of SW France. If Galicians are close to the Basques, Bretons are not in any way, what we know however is that they are close Y-DNA speaking to the British and Irish, which is not the case for Galicians. NW Europeans show genetic similarities, SW Europeans too, but SW and NW Europeans are different from each other. They're in majority R1b like all of us west of the Alps and Oder are, but that's all.
 
No it's not ok:

1) R1b doesn't originate in Spain but in Asia.

2) -M173 is R1
-M17 is R1a
-M269 is R1b1b2

We all (R1b Europeans) belong to the Atlantic Modal Haplotype. You have to look closer for the various subsclades of M269 and other haplogroups to differenciate Europeans, doing so you'll see that the main subsclade in the British Isles and Brittany is R1b-L21 (not found in Galicia) while in Galicia it is E-M81 (not found in Brittany, Ireland or Britain).

3) H3 and H1 represent 28% of the Mtdna in Spain, 26% in Portugal, 20% in Ireland, but also 21% in Finland or 30% in Norway. What kind of proof is it ? MtDNA is actually not significant enough to distinguish European peoples from one another. We all have more or less the same proportion of each subsclade.

4) About the first HLA Haplotype: What's its percentage in the different countries where it's found ?
You say it's often found in Spain, Britain and Portugal, but also significant in the Netherland, Germany, Austria and Switzerland. How do you except to prove your point when you quote an haplotyple significantly found in all Western and Central Europe ?

The second HLA Haplotype has its highest frequency in Western Europe (NW Spaniards, Basques, Portugueses, Irish, southern English and western French), indicating a possible link between Atlantic countries and North Africans. Why not, but once again what about its overall importance ?
A genetic map of France using HLA markers has been drawn in 2002, and Brittany is dramatically different from SW France (the lecture here, the maps there).
In fact, be it using HLA or Y-DNA, Brittany is the opposite of SW France. If Galicians are close to the Basques, Bretons are not in any way, what we know however is that they are close Y-DNA speaking to the British and Irish, which is not the case for Galicians. NW Europeans show genetic similarities, SW Europeans too, but SW and NW Europeans are different from each other. They're in majority R1b like all of us west of the Alps and Oder are, but that's all.

Where do you get the idea that R1b (L-21) is not found in Galicia? I trace my family back to ancient Gallaecia (Galicia and Northern Portugal / Bracara) and I'm L-21. I'm sure there are quite a few other L-21s up here. Moreover, I can assure you my L-21 did not come from the British Isles. You also should check your facts on E-(M-81).

Your a smart fellow but seem to be obsessed with proving that Iberians are not substantially Celtic. What is the motivation behind this craziness? Something is quite odd here...
 
I edited it just a few minutes before your post, "not significantly found".

My facts on E-M81 are Eupedia's facts.

I'm not obsessed, i just keep answering.
However, like everybody here you can say that i have some kind of "agenda". I think that mine is quite clear, it's an anticeltic one, i'm bored with people braging about their celticity (that includes French, Italians, Irish, etc... not only Iberians) while we all know that what the Celts represent, what the classical historians say about them; in other words everything that the word Celtic carry culturally and historically in everybody's mind, is related to the La Tène Celts.

Everyone should have enough to take pride in his country for not having to claim his celticity.
 
I edited it just a few minutes before your post, "not significantly found".

My facts on E-M81 are Eupedia's facts.

I'm not obsessed, i just keep answering.
However, like everybody here you can say that i have some kind of "agenda". I think that mine is quite clear, it's an anticeltic one, i'm bored with people braging about their celticity (that includes French, Italians, Irish, etc... not only Iberians) while we all know that what the Celts represent, what we know of them, what the classical historians say about them; in other words everything that the word Celtic carry culturally and historically in everybody's mind; is related to La Tène Celts.
Every body should have enough to take pride in his country for not having to claim his celticity.

E (M-81) has been found in various regions of the British Isles and as far north as Norway. I'll provide some research as soon as I get the chance. Also, it is not the dominant subclade in Galicia. It hardly matters...

You seem to think that political borders should dominate one's "ethnic" identity. Why? I don't agree with that notion since I feel strongly that meta-ethnicity matters MUCH more in a primal sense. My identity is Gallaecian Celtic and not Portuguese, or Spanish or French or American. That is how I see things...
 
You seem to think that political borders should dominate one's "ethnic" identity. Why? I don't agree with that notion since I feel strongly that meta-ethnicity matters MUCH more in a primal sense. My identity is Gallaecian Celtic and not Portuguese, or Spanish or French or American. That is how I see things...

I'm French: Centralist, Gaullist (from De Gaulle, not Gaul), and Jacobin.
 
No it's not ok:

We all (R1b Europeans) belong to the Atlantic Modal Haplotype. You have to look closer for the various subsclades of M269 and other haplogroups to differenciate Europeans, doing so you'll see that the main subsclade in the British Isles and Brittany is R1b-L21 (not significantly found in Galicia) while in Galicia it is E-M81 (not significantly found in Brittany, Ireland or Britain).
LOL, tha main subclade ?? It is only 7% ...and you say the Main Subclade ?
 
No it's not ok:

1) R1b doesn't originate in Spain but in Asia.

2) -M173 is R1
-M17 is R1a
-M269 is R1b1b2

We all (R1b Europeans) belong to the Atlantic Modal Haplotype. You have to look closer for the various subsclades of M269 and other haplogroups to differenciate Europeans, doing so you'll see that the main subsclade in the British Isles and Brittany is R1b-L21 (not significantly found in Galicia) while in Galicia it is E-M81 (not significantly found in Brittany, Ireland or Britain).

3) H3 and H1 represent 28% of the Mtdna in Spain, 26% in Portugal, 20% in Ireland, but also 21% in Finland or 30% in Norway. What kind of proof is it ? MtDNA is actually not significant enough to distinguish European peoples from one another. We all have more or less the same proportion of each subsclade.

4) About the first HLA Haplotype: What's its percentage in the different countries where it's found ?
You say it's often found in Spain, Britain and Portugal, but also significant in the Netherland, Germany, Austria and Switzerland. How do you expect to prove your point when you quote an haplotyple significantly found in both Western and Central Europe ?

The second HLA Haplotype has its highest frequency in Western Europe (NW Spaniards, Basques, Portugueses, Irish, Southern English and Western French), indicating a possible link between Atlantic countries and North Africans. Why not, but once again what about its overall importance ?
A genetic map of France using HLA markers has been drawn in 2002, and Brittany is dramatically different from SW France (the lecture here, the maps there).
In fact, be it using HLA or Y-DNA, Brittany is the opposite of SW France. If Galicians are close to the Basques, Bretons are not in any way, what we know however is that they are close Y-DNA speaking to the British and Irish, which is not the case for Galicians. NW Europeans show genetic similarities, SW Europeans too, but SW and NW Europeans are different from each other. They're in majority R1b like all of us west of the Alps and Oder are, but that's all.

The R1b subclade considered Celtic is the S-116 (R1b1b2a1b) , which was born in the Hallstatt and LaTene zone, and found in high frequency in Iberia...(the main subclade)
See this :

s1162.png
 
The R1b subclade considered Celtic is the S-116 (R1b1b2a1b) , which is found in high frequency in Iberia...
See this :

s116.png

All i see is an arrow with R-S116, and R-S116 is not considered Celtic. Try again.
 
All i see is an arrow with R-S116, and R-S116 is not considered Celtic. Try again.
No , TRY AGAIN my ass :
If it is not considered Celtic, how is posible that it first appeared in Celtic people in the Hallstatt and La Tène area ?? Huh ?? Where do you think the S-116 subclade was born ? WHere do you think it first appeared ?? Who brought this subclade in western Europe ?? Come on..Tell me, explain me, I want to know the truth, but please with sources !!
By the way the map is from Eupedia :
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml
 
I don't think that your source (if you have a reliable one) is better than Eupedia's ones.
So yes, the main subsclade.

Get off it already! Now you are acting like you really have an agenda.
 
Now you are acting like you really have an agenda.
How so ?
Why should I trust Wilhelm more than Eupedia ? Because one study found 9% of E-M81 in Galicia while other probably found higher % ?

Look, he's not even able to correctly read the paper he quotes, he edited it from 7% to 9%.
 
How so ?
Why should I trust Wilhelm more than Eupedia ? Because one study found 9% of E-M81 in Galicia while other probably found higher % ?

Look he's not even able to correctly read the paper he quotes, he edited it from 7% to 9%.
And where is your study ?? WHat is the percentage of your study ?
I said at first 7% because I didn't remember but then I cheked the source, from cell.com(see above) , and yes it is 9% , obviously not main subclade
By the way, You didn't answer on the S-116 question...
 
And where is your study ?? WHat is the percentage of your study ?
I said at first 7% because I didn't remember but then I cheked the source, from cell.com , and yes it is 9%
By the way, You didn't answer on the S-116 question...

Where is my study ?

I quote Eupedia, isn't it clear enough ?

"Large font = over 25% of the population
Small font = between 10 and 25% of the population"
.

S-116 is labelled Italo-Celtic, and is probably way less found than his various susclades. The ones found nowadays in NE France, SW Germany and closest areas can be considered Celtic, not the ones found in Catalonia or the Basque country.
 
Where is my study ?

I quote Eupedia, isn't it clear enough ?

"Large font = over 25% of the population
Small font = between 10 and 25% of the population"
.

S-116 is Italo-Celtic, and is probably way less found than his various susclades.
lol, that is a map is of europe 2000 years ago, and I also wonder the sources that Maciamo used to make this map. For the E-M81 today see my source that I showed to you :http://www.cell.com/AJHG/image/S0002-9297(08)00592-2?imageId=gr1&imageType=large

Origin of S-116 ?? Where it first appeared ? Who brought it ? Sources ? By the way, the map that I showed is from Eupedia...

s1162.png
 
lol, that is a map of europe 2000 years ago, and I also wonder the sources that Maciamo used to make this map.
Origin of S-116 ?? Where it first appeared ? Who brought it ? Sources ? By the way, the map that I showed is from Eupedia...
s1162.png

Why do you ask questions you'll probably never have sure and definitive answers to ?
Maciamo tried to retrace the migration of R1b people using the data in his possession, it's not an absolute truth, neither geographically nor chronologically.
 
Why do you ask questions you'll probably never have sure and definitive answers to ?
Maciamo tried to retrace the migration of R1b people using the data in his possession, it's not an absolute truth, neither geographically nor chronologically.
Neither the map of E-M81 which is of Europe 2000 years ago...
What is more reliable, a study of europe 2000 years ago, or a genetic study of 2008 wich I showed to you ?? Seriously..Don't be that stupid
http://download.cell.com/AJHG/pdf/PIIS0002929708005922.pdf?intermediate=true

Answer this :
Origin of S-116 ?? Where it first appeared ? Who brought it ? Sources ?
 
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