what is the dating?
only basal R, no subclades identified
my guess would be R2 or R1b-V88
I agree with that. It might even be some extinct R*. After all I* also shows up a bit everywhere in Europe during the Mesolithic and Neolithic.
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature currently requires accessing the site using the built-in Safari browser.
what is the dating?
only basal R, no subclades identified
my guess would be R2 or R1b-V88
there's T too? so pretty much everything except I1
this is bullshit
Wherever it was hiding in h-gs, at one point was picked up by proto germanic farmers, and afterwards exploded with germanic population. In one of most successful tribes. Unless you think it landed in IA Europe with Martians?
For now I'm going with the idea that there was a WHG related population in Anatolia.
As to the relationships between the hunter-gatherers, there is this from the paper.
View attachment 8676
The Neolithic R in Iran is from Ganj Dareh, Iran, as they all are, and is dated 8000 to 7700 BC. The other male is listed as CT. It's all in Table 5, right after the Globular Amphora and Iron Gates samples.
How can Villabruna look like EHG minus the ANE, if the whole difference of WHG to EHG is the extend of ANE admixture
That is not possible.
EHG, SHG, WHG all seem to be the same with only their ANE admixture being the differenting point. And Balkan H&G seem to be something of their own too. Predominantly WHG (93%) with little ANE admixture (~7%).
But it doesn't provide the game changer on account of the LGM or pre-LGM roots of WHG.
The attachment is broken
I said historically. Meaning "as far as we know for sure". Of course they had to have been there before then, but I disagree with your time frames. Don't espouse science with your claims as if you're using pure logic, please. Luwain is really the only sub-group and it isn't as diverges from Hittite as you claim.
I agree that Anatolian/proto-Hittite, or whatever you want to call it must have diverged from PIE by 4000BC, but these would have been mobile people with horses and chariots. They could have moved into Anatolian suddenly, just as the Mycenaeans did in Greece. In fact they could have been displaced from the Balkans by migrating Greek speakers, which is what appears to be happening on the Balkan peninsula.
The Hittite people also appear to have originally been seated away from where this bronze age sample was taken, in the East around Hattusa, from which Luwic would likely have diverged from later. And it's only one sample. I'd like to see a few more younger samples. That's all.
It's possible that Anatolian came from the East, but I don't think it's more likely than the Balkans given all of the other evidence we have about IE dispersals.
I have written a long explanation about how and when I1 might have spread to Finland in my history of haplogroup I1.
Why do you expect to find I1 in Mesolithic orEarly Neolithic samples ? I1 didn't exist back then. It was just I* (or pre-I1, meaning that only some of the 300+ defining mutations existed). The I1 reported by Szécsényi-Nagy 2014 in the LBK culture is almost surely pre-I1. That pre-I1 would have spread from Hungary to Germany with the advance of LBK, then maybe to to already Scandinavia with Funnelbeaker farmers.
I1 as we know it appeared less than 5000 years ago, either during the late Funnelbeaker or the early Corded Ware/Battle-Axe culture. One likely scenario is that the ancestor of all modern I1 was one lucky man assimilated by Corded Ware tribes who adapted well, rose to prominence, and whose descendants expanded quickly as Corded Ware tribes spread over Scandinavia. An alternative scenario is that I1 was a founder lineage among a small group of Funnelbeaker farmers who expanded to Scandinavia, eventually reaching Finland before the Corded Ware. Since the TMRCA of I1 is just at the limit of the Funnelbeaker and Corded Ware cultures, and that it is just an estimate that could be off by a few centuries, it is not possible to know for sure at present. However there is no reason to expect any I1 among the Balkans, Baltic or Steppe samples tested in this paper.
Thanks, I think you've hit the nail on the head, either Funnelbeaker or Battle Axe it is. Related to that it just occurred to me that we have no samples whatsoever from Finland, do we?
I've just clicked on it, Epoch, and it works for me. Maybe you have to be logged in? If not, it's here on Iosif's twitter.
https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis
Yes. Disappointed? I didn't mean to imply it was the Ten Commandments fresh from the mountain top!
This?
I don't think you can tell that yet. Pure unadmixted UP WHG has now been found from Switzerland to Serbia, from Sicily to Villabruna, right?
EDIT: Come to think of it, those Peloponesse Neolithics have even less WHG than Anatolians. The Admixture graphs shown in the Supp Info shows it to have a common origin to the non-WHG part of Anatolians. The text mentions it shies away from WHG in comparison to Anatolian. While this is not proof, my feeling is that this points to Anatolians being on te receiving end of WHG admixture.
I said historically. Meaning "as far as we know for sure". Of course they had to have been there before then, but I disagree with your time frames. Don't espouse science with your claims as if you're using pure logic, please. Luwain is really the only sub-group and it isn't as diverges from Hittite as you claim.
Yep they went on a long journey with their ultra advanced chariots (chariots are an Indo_Iranian thing by the way. 4000 BC Indo Europeans didn't had the spoked wheel charriots) without even the need to stop anywhere.I agree that Anatolian/proto-Hittite, or whatever you want to call it must have diverged from PIE by 4000BC, but these would have been mobile people with horses and chariots. They could have moved into Anatolian suddenly, just as the Mycenaeans did in Greece.
In fact they could have been displaced from the Balkans by migrating Greek speakers, which is what appears to be happening on the Balkan peninsula.
Yes a lot of I2a2a. For a long time it seemed I2a1 dominated ancient European I2a but at least in Eastern Europe there was more I2a2a than I2a1.
OK, so.
This is very interesting and clarifies a lot of things, but it's nothing earth shattering to me:
- We have an early group of Levantine/South Anatolian farmers in the Peloponnese. This is interesting, but the fact that there were more than one population of farmers moving into the Balkan peninsula isn't too surprising. It would be more strange if there was only a single source. I wish we had their Y-HGs, but we can probably make a good guess with this
the possible PPNB colonisation hypothesis had been already put by someones, without DNA, supposing at least 2 early different waves of farmers into S-E Europe - I wonder if Y-E1b upstream to E-V13 was not already among them (Pelopponese is a hotspot for E-V13 in Europe)
in my quest towards BB's and towards a link with Y-I2a2 I was longing for a place between far West and far North-East, not too far from Vucedol and close to Moldavia and Tripolje, and I thought in the Carpathians: they are not too far from Balkans (at this date I did not know about I2a2 in Balkans) and we find some old I2a2 in Ukraina too - sure it proves nothing about BB's and some Y-I2a2 lineages have surely an other story,but my bet concerning geography was not to bad it seems -
Their cluster for WHG in that graph is composed of Loschbour, La Brana, and Villabruna, as far as I can remember. I can't find the quote. If it's wrong, please post so I can correct the record.Yes. Disappointed? I didn't mean to imply it was the Ten Commandments fresh from the mountain top!
To the board:
Is this still correct?
Single Grave?, Denmark, RISE61 [4], R1a
Battle-Axe, Sweden, RISE94 [4], R1a
Battle-Axe?, Sweden, RISE98 [4], R1b
This thread has been viewed 186243 times.