The Kennedy Assassination: conspiracy or random act of violence?

Ma Cherie

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I was fortunate enough to have a wonderful American History teacher. He taught us things that aren't in history textbooks these days. Such as the most contraversol case in American history. The Kennedy assasination is still being researched to this very day. And in all honesty, with all the mythes surrounding this case, it's difficult to obtain the truth about what really went on. Oliver Stone's 1993 production of JFK possibly made things worse. Don't get me wrong, I liked the movie. :p But it didn't help much.

I guess the questions people have been wondering about for the longest is was Lee Harvey Oswald the lone gunman. Was there anyone by the Grassy Knoll, did anyone hear shots from the Grassy Knoll. Who was the famous "Umbrella Man?" If it was a conspiracy, was Lee Harvey Oswald invovled? What's the "Magic Bullet theory?" How about the "Singal Bullet theory?"

Well, I'd like to know what you believe happened.
:bow:
 
Oh Boy ! Ooooh Boy !

Have you opened an interesting one here ! Great stuff - and very much part of the lives of some of us older folks ! (I guarantee that you'll possibly be seeing some of us coming to geriatric blows after a short time !)

It's probably gonna get quite complicated ... but let me just let you know where I stand basically; then I shall run off, get me books, talk it all over with "she who must be obeyed" - and return .... OK ?

Firstly just one or two of your thoughts ...

Was Oswald the only gunman ?

Personally - I tend to think not .... unless he was quite remarkable in his skills at firing an old bolt-action weapon at the rate he was supposed to. (Just listen to the Newsreel soundtrack !)

Did Oswald kill Kennedy ?

I'm sure he thought he did ! He certainly had the gun, aimed the gun and fired the gun - more than once. But I have some doubts that he was the one that actually hit JFK.

Why do I think this ...?

Partly because of the "Magic Bullet Theory". To have hit Kennedy the way it apparently(?) did - it really was a magic bullet! Sir Isaac Newton himself would have liked to have checked out that missile !

All you have to do is get the full picture of the location of the cavalcade, the location of the warehouse, .... and watch the Zapruda home movie ! Kennedy was hit in the head (not the body or neck ... ); you clearly see his head snapped back violently by the hit.

The book warehouse is behind him !

If he'd been hit from the rear .... the Zapruda movie (IMHO) would have been at least PG13 .... as Kennedy's face fell off !

But the magic bullet, it seems, hit the Governor of Texas (John Connolly) ... exited him ..... changed direction .... flew down, flew up ... and hit Kennedy (and possibly changed direction again !) before dumping itself on the floor of the limousine.

"The Man on the Grassy Knoll ?"

Never proven, often claimed, quite logical ..... and .... I think there was !

It would certainly make the Zapruda movie more credible !

And ... there are photographs that appear to show him ! Just !

I'm afraid that's all I have time for right now ... but I promise to return to the fray on this one ! In the meantime, just to let you know that I feel some of the conspiracy theories to be laughably far fetched ... but ... there was skulduggery going on somewhere !

And, finally ... yes, I do remember exactly what I was doing when JFK was shot !

I was having a beer in a pub, in England, when a friend walked in and said "President Kennedy has just been shot!" I'll never forget it !

11/23/63 - I was just over 20 years of age. The pub was "The Elephant and Castle" in Peterborough, England, and my friend was named "Sammy".

It was a sad day.

Regards,

?W????

('ll be baaack !)
 
I wasn't born when kennedy was shot. I only got here about a year later.

I'm thinking Oswald, one gunman, three shots, magic bullet. Pretty ordinary stuff- no dude on the grassy knoll, no second gunman. I believe this based on reports that I have read and reconstructions I have seen on television. It is not exactly air tight- but I don't put a lot of time into it.

But was there a conspiracy? If yes- who was behind it? I have my suspicions.
 
I love all kinds of conspircies so this is right up my alley.

Based on my reading of the book "Crossfire:The Plot That Killed Kennedy", by Jim Marrs, the most detailed independent investigation to date, I am firmly convinced that the Kennedy Assination was a bloodless Coup d'etat propigated by the US military, the CIA, big business, along with the global elitists and industrialists, and higher ups in the Federal Government, including VP Johnson and head of the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover. Clink on the link above to get both pros and cons by independent readers of this book. There are about 45 reviews.

Kennedy planned on getting us out of Vietnam and big business and the military industrial complex would not let that happen. Kennedy was independently wealthy and could not be bribed by these elitists. He was an honest man who want nothing but what was best for America, and the US' involvement in Vietnam was not in the country's best interests. Therefore, "a public execution" was staged to warn others coming after Kennedy to not go against the grain so to speak. In other words they better do what they are told or else. His brother Robert, tried to buck this trend and was also taken out. The other brother, Ted, became too scared and decided to what he was told else he face the same the same fate as his two brothers. Remember, it was former president Dwight (Ike) Eisenhower who warned, upon his leaving office, "Beware the military industrial complex."

It is well know that Johnson was into dirty politics and involved in big oil and that the military industrial complex wanted war in order to further their agenda and pad their own pockets. It is well evidenced that Hoover also was involved in dirty politics and had a big hand, along with Johnson, in the selection of the people on the Warren Commission, and subsequent coverup of the assination.

It has been proven that Kennedys body was altered at the hospital to show a lone gunman firing from the rear. It is well known and evidenced by fact that Kennedy was not to be protected that fateful day by the Secret Service. I could go on and on, but I suggest you read the book or do a little independent investigation yourself and then come to your conclusions. I'll bet you'll be as firmly convinced as I am.

The single bullit or "Magic Bullet" theory? Both have been disproved in actual investigation. Oswald firing all three shots with a cheap $3 rifle? Disproved as even sharpshooters with the US military couldn'd do it in the time alloted to them. Many have tried through the years and all have failed. What about the bullet casings found on the grassy knoll and in the streets and later taken out of official reports? Those actual reports were uncovered and never reported about even to this day!

Maars' evidence and detailed investigation is flawless and I challenge anyone to first read his book and the evidence presented before blindly believing what history books and the media is telling you because one must remember that the mass media, as well as the educational institutions in this country and Europe and their governments, are governed and controlled by a handful of global elitists.

Just do a little research into the founding and history of all the major educational institutions like Harvard, Cambridge, Yale, Stanford, MIT, etc. as well as the mass media like the BBC, ABC, CBS, NBC, Time, Newsweek, The New York Times, and other major papers around the world and you will discover that they all have their beginnings by the families of handful of men who are all tied, in one way or another, to pulling the strings in this world of ours.

I'll bet many here do not even know that John Kerry and George W. Bush are distant cousins with blood lines going back to the Royal Family in Britan. Aha! caught you on that one I'll bet.

So, was Kennedy killed by a conspiricy? Based on the evidence and facts only, and not theory, in my opinion, the answer is yes.

As Mr. Marrs stated in his preface, " Why seek the truth of Kennedy's death? The answer is simple. Unless we, as a nation, come to a truthful understanding of what happened to our chief elected official in 1963, we obviously cannot begin to correctly understand the events that are affecting us today."

Where was I that fateful day? I was in my fourth grade classroom when the announcement came over the school loudspeaker that afternoon. I will never forget it as my teacher started crying and we were all allowed to go home.
 
OK ! OK !

Just how does one follow a post like that (on this subject) !

And, here I was, about to get all 'professorial' and ..... Pachipro ... made so many of the points I wanted to make !

Rats !


Anyhooo..... and seriously (actually - he's saved me an awful lot of time and trouble !) - I obviously feel very much the same way, for the same reasons.

Just a couple of notes for those who want to follow this absorbing ... and important .... subject further :

I have partially read the Marrs book - but never actually read it "from cover to cover", I confess. But well recommended.

One of my own main sources (and watch it ... there are many critics of this one .... ! ) was "Best Evidence" by David Lifton. It deals mainly with the alleged tampering with Kennedy's body after the assassination.

Dubious or not - it does beg many, many questions, and is scholarly in presentation.

Another, ongoing, source of research and information can be found at this link http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ - but please don't desert this forum for theirs ! (Although, I might just consider nipping over there myself ... from time ... to time .......!)

One or two things that weren't brought up by either of us:


a) How convenient that Oswald was shot by Jack Ruby, shortly after he was taken into custody ! (Dead men tell no tales !)

b) Was Jack Ruby so 'pro-Kennedy' and patriotic that he just had to shoot Oswald !? Or did other factors come into play ? (Knowledge/ Fear/ Both?...)

c) Were both of these men very convenient "Patsies" in a very intelligent and complex plot ?


Edgar J. Hoover was an amazingly conniving creature who's loathing for the Kennedy brothers became legendary. He was also cruelly ruthless.

Who knows ?

And finally ... one personal note
:

When JFK was shot, I was living in the UK. He appeared to be universally admired in Europe - a refreshing change in American outlook and policy, totally fitting for our "sixties revolution". (Which was well under way.)

"Camelot" belonged - and was OK !

Imagine my surprise when, on coming to North America some years later ... I discovered .... that Kennedy was not universally admired ! (Of course ... 'Brits' were never too impressed by his dad ! However ....)

I remember well, one evening in Syracuse NY in the late seventies, when I was dining with a local lawyer ... and the JFK assassination was raised in conversation ...

This guy went nuts!

He accused Kennedy and his family of every misdeed under the sun, called them "crooks", bastards, and everything else you can think of .....! I was quite taken aback.

But I soon learned that quite a few people felt that way!

JFK represented quite a threat to many influential folks - far more influential than pathetic, sad, lost ... little ... Lee Harvey ..... Oswald !


Regards,

?W????
 
Gomen Sensuikan-san. I didn't mean to steal your thunder. I am just so involved with these kind of things that I just jumped on it and am glad someone brought it up. I have been researching these kinds of things for almost 20 years now. It's too bad most people refuse to hear the facts and just rely on getting their news from the mass media in 7 second sound bites.
Sensuikan San said:
a) How convenient that Oswald was shot by Jack Ruby, shortly after he was taken into custody ! (Dead men tell no tales !)
Ruby, a patsy also, was ordered to kill Oswald and he threatened to go to the authorities with his information. When interviewed by the Warren Commission he pleaded to be taken to Washington to testify or that he, himself would be murdered. He claimed he was injected with cancer(the injection of cancer cells into a "target" was a well known CIA tactic). He subsequently died of cancer before his new trial was to start.

b) Was Jack Ruby so 'pro-Kennedy' and patriotic that he just had to shoot Oswald !? Or did other factors come into play ? (Knowledge/ Fear/ Both?...)
This was in the Warren Commission's report and is still repeated in the media today. Their report stated that Ruby was so grief stricken and concerned that Mrs. Kennedy would have to return to Dallas to testify against Oswald that he killed him. This has since been proven to be a legal ploy and an outright lie. In notes to an attorney, he said that he was told to say what he did. He even repeated this to his own attorney, famed defense attorney Melvin Belli. He also called the Dallas Police station and told him that if they did not change their plans Oswald would be assinated.

c) Were both of these men very convenient "Patsies" in a very intelligent and complex plot ?
Yes, based on the evidence.

Imagine my surprise when, on coming to North America some years later ... I discovered .... that Kennedy was not universally admired ! (Of course ... 'Brits' were never too impressed by his dad ! However ....)

I remember well, one evening in Syracuse NY in the late seventies, when I was dining with a local lawyer ... and the JFK assassination was raised in conversation ...

This guy went nuts!

He accused Kennedy and his family of every misdeed under the sun, called them "crooks", bastards, and everything else you can think of .....! I was quite taken aback.

But I soon learned that quite a few people felt that way!
Yes, the Kennedy's money was made during the prohibition era with the bootlegging of liquor from Canada into the United States. With this money they bought themselves government officials, judges and seats in the senate. I think they also had their hand in the opium trade with China also. John wanted to be above that. That's why so many people here and abroad, love the man, but hate and despise his family.

JFK represented quite a threat to many influential folks - far more influential than pathetic, sad, lost ... little ... Lee Harvey ..... Oswald !
So true. Oswald was recruited by the CIA during his stay at Atsugi Navy Air Base in Japan. This was their main training area in the Far East. He at first was responsible for the radar monitoring of U-2 flights over the Soviet Union. All his communist sympathizing was a ruse.
JFK's threats to the influential folks started when he refused military intervention in the Bay of Pigs fiasco. He then decided that we would leave Vietnam alone. And he also decided, and issued an executive order to the effect, that the US would print their own currency, backed by gold and to hell with paying interest by borrowing money from the "Federal Reserve" which, in reality is a private bank run by a handful of elitists, big industry men and financial tycoons.

How many of you people reading this know that? How many of you actually know that the "Federal Reserve" is NOT a government run institution? How many of you know that these elitists, who run the "Federal Reserve" lend their money to the US at interest when, if we only printed our own money and backed it with gold, we would not to have to pay any interest and there would be no so called Federal Defecit? And don't believe this is only happening in the US. It is happening in every major industrial country around the world with the exception of China at the moment. Keep watching the news and you'll notice a few stories here and there about the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and World Bank, which is also run by these same people by the way, pushing China to float their currency instead of backing it with gold. Right now that is thorn in their asses. Let's see if China also succumbs to these people.

Anyway, I'm getting on a rant so I better stop here. Man I love topics like these. BTW Ma Cherie, does this help answer your original post?
 
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"Lone gunman" doesn't equal "random act of violence", so the choice of options in the subject isn't quite accurate.
 
There was a program on the Discovery Channel that made a good case for one shooter hitting both men. Of course, we'll never know, and it won't bring either back.
 
mikecash said:
"Lone gunman" doesn't equal "random act of violence", so the choice of options in the subject isn't quite accurate.


The reason why I said "random act of violence" because of a theory that Lee Harvy Oswald was some angry communists who didn't like Kennedy, and he wanted him dead. Just so you'll know. :bluush:
 
Governor Connally (Dem- Tex) survived the shooting. He served two terms as governor of Texas- Became secretary of the Treasury under Nixon (his signature will be on bills of that vintage) and switched to the Republican party in 1973. He died in 1993.

The "magic bullet" theory refers to the unlikely trajectory the second bullet had to have taken to have caused the injuries to Kennedy (in through the back, out the throat) and Connally (in one side, shatters a rib, out hitting his wrist and into the thigh), and the fact that it was found just laying on a gurney in the hospital, flat on one side, barely dented on the tip, but otherwise in nearly pristine condition.

There is also some controversy over the three shells found in Oswald's sniper's nest. One had a slight dent, possibly from dry firing. Some people also think that the cheap bolt action rifle could not have fired the three shots fast enough.

The discovery channel program and history channel Unsolved History kind of confirmed the Warren Commission report. A computer reconstruction based on films and audio records also shows that Oswald could have fired the two shots that hit Kennedy, and that there probably was no other shooter in Daly plaza on that day. there were also witnesses in the book depository that heard three shots from the floor above, and saw Oswald run through the break room.

I fired a bolt action rifle (an 8mm commish '88- actually longer and heavier than a Mannlicher-Carcano C2766 rifle, with a longer bolt throw and no scope) at an unmoving paper target at 90 yards. It was no problems getting three shots off into a 9" circle in 7 seconds. (Braced- With gun supported on a table). I wanted to check to see how accurate the Warren commision test was (on the timing, not marksmanship) and shooting three shots that quickly, hitting a target at that distance is difficult, but within the ability of even an average marksman.

The autopsy was a mess- with Navy doctors missing, damaging or losing key evidence.

None of this means however that it wasn't a conspiracy. Only that a single gunman (Oswald) is more likely.
 
Ma Cherie said:
The reason why I said "random act of violence" because of a theory that Lee Harvy Oswald was some angry communists who didn't like Kennedy, and he wanted him dead. Just so you'll know. :bluush:

That would be an act of violence directed against a specific (and predetermined) target, not a random target.
 
sabro said:
Governor Connally (Dem- Tex) survived the shooting. He served two terms as governor of Texas- Became secretary of the Treasury under Nixon (his signature will be on bills of that vintage) and switched to the Republican party in 1973. He died in 1993.
His "reward" for remaining silent and not telling the Warren Commission the truth about what actually happened that day.

None of this means however that it wasn't a conspiracy. Only that a single gunman (Oswald) is more likely.
OK, lets look at the evidence based on official documents and left out of the Warren Commissions report.

Oswald said he was in the lunchroom at the time of the shooting and this was corroborated by fellow employees who said he was standing at a coke machine at the time of the shots were heard. This is later corroborated by Depository superintendent Roy Tulley and Dallas policeman Marion Baker who said, in testimony, that in less than 90 seconds they encountered a cool and collected Oswald in the lunchroom. Although no one will ever know the truth, the abundant evidence says that he did not fire a shot.

-Parrafin tests conducted by the Dallas police showed no nitrates on Oswalds cheek.

- A parrafin test of his palm print being on the rifle could never be admissable as evidence in a court of law because there is no chain of custody. Besides, it is speculated that it was taken from Oswald's palm in the funeral home.

- Military records prove Oswald was not a good marksman.

- "Army test personnel even had to equip with metal shims the poor quality Mannlicher-Carcano rifle after the assassination to make it accurate enough for testing."

-Not one single person today has duplicated the feat of Oswald and many have tried.

- Further investigation shows that, "due to an evergreen tree located in front of the depository there was no line of sight from the sixth floor window to the point where films show that the first shots struck."

- "Medical and ballistic evidence, much of which bears the earmarks of tampering, shows that Kennedy was struck by three shots-one in the middle of the throat, one in the middle of the back which did not penetrate the body, and one in the head."

-Governor Connally was struck by two shots-one penetrating his chest and lung and another shattering his right wrist.

-Investigation and evidence also shows that at least one shot missed the limoisene striking a curb and wounding a Mr. James Tague. And there is evidence that another shot struck the grass on the south side of Elm Street and another hit the street near the limousine. Tis would discount a lone gunman as at least 6 shots were fired and perhaps as many as nine.

-Acoustical experts, testifying before the House Select Committee on Assassinations say that they discovered as many as nine signals that could not be ruled out as gunshots, but only four were confirmed as only two sites were used for comparision tests. One of those shots was confirmed to have come from the infamous Grassy Knoll.

- A motorcycle policeman in Dealy Plaza opened his microphone and kept it open for eight minutes. This recording was obtained from Dallas police in 1976 by one Gary Mack. In 1977 he enhanced the quality of the tape and concluded that there were at least seven shots! This evidence showed that the second shot came a mere 1.6 seconds after the first shot and, since the FBI determined that it would take 2.3 seconds to get off a second shot, this is further evidence of more than one gunman. And, this is further evidence that the Warren Commission Report is a bunch of lies.

- Authorities say that 3 spent casings were found on the sixth floor, but the official Dallas police reports states only two were found. This was later changed and would never be admissible in court.

- Lyndon Johnson orderd that the Presidential Limousine be destroyed as evidence before investigators could inspect the car's windshield and interior. Hmmmm.

Does anyone really need more evidence of more than one gunman or are most people going to take at face value the deeply flawed Warren Commission's Report?

This report was initiated by Lyndon Johnson to stave off investigations by Texas and the US Congress. Johnson hand-picked all Commission members who were either involved with the US military, the US Defense Industries, or the US Intelligence.

Chief Justice Earl Warren first declined to oversee this investigation because he deemed it unconstitutional, but was pressured by Johnson into it and was told by Johnson that, if they didn't find Oswald the lone assassin, that WW III might result.

Today, a majority of Americans (and I am one of them) seriously doubt the Warren Commission's report or what is reported as "fact" on US TV like the Discovery Channel or ABC News concerining the assassination thanks to the internet and it's instant ability to offer research into official records and records of independent investigators that show just how much evidence was either altered or completely left out of the investigation.
 
The Kennedy Assasination had a lot strange things.

The Kennedy Assasination like some many other things are filled with many strange things that somehow don't fit with the official explanation of what happened.

Can we really find out the whole truth for sure? Should we care?

No on both parts.



Nevertheless, what ever happened, we should honor and respect Kennedy.



As for the whole Kennedy assasination.

Well... It's possible that a single person could have killed him, but there are some many strange things that one wonder if he really acted alone. That and the suspected person was later on also killed, make one wonder.

If Kennedy was killed, it's probably because what he had done.

You got to remember that this is the same U.S.A. president who want to cooperate with the U.S.S.R. (including a cooperate manned moon project), reject the Federal Reserve banknotes favouring with the government's own kind of currencies, and so on.

Though... Maybe the actual reason that he was murdered is because he gone very rebellious and it's about to make a very 'controversial' speech. Killing is usually used only as the last option, before that, bribe (Marilyn Monroe?), blackmailing (I will make it as if you're the one who killed Marilyn Monroe?), and so on were used first.


Another strange assasination. Is when John Lennon was killed, only to have the killer wondered why he killed John Lennon since he's a big fan of him.
 

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