Thread: E-V13 Frequency Maps and Data

[Hawk]

@Hawk

The Ottoman era was brutal to the Albanian ethnos and I don't see how any Albanian tribe would have benefited from it.

I would actually be interested in a good layout regarding uniparentals of Albanians from the broader Nish region. They have had a great demographic impact in Kosovë.

Saying all Sopis would not be fair because from what i have seen in some parts of Kosovo and Albania there are still Catholics among them, moreover some guy shared this link.

Initially it's clear Sopi heavily resisted and hated the Ottomans, and they were successful resisting them, partially probably due to living in very isolated mountainous areas where Ottoman Cavalry was inefficient and hence 1000 of their horses fell to combined Berisha/Sopi battle.

But some branches of Sopi who lived/moved around Vranje/Nish/Toplic should have benefited from conversion, in Serbian records from Hadzi Vasileviq we have Gashi and Sopi as the most despised and dangerous Albanian groups over there. I don't know the whole demographics, but i am just trying to build an image from various official and non-official sources.

In Nish/Toplic/Vranje you had all kind of families which you had in Kosove, but i would say Sopi was far more frequent than in Kosove.

 

[bigsnake49]

Is there a breakdown of the frequency of the E-Z5018 subclades with their corresponding TRMCA?

 

[Riverman]

Is there a breakdown of the frequency of the E-Z5018 subclades with their corresponding TRMCA?

You can check the trees on YFull and FTDNA:
https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-Z5018/
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-Z5018/tree

What's specific about E-Z5018 is, that while it has a lot of smaller branches too, it has a lot of really big, major, fairly widespread branches, which on their own can reach significant percentages in various regions, which surpass many older subclades of E-V13 by a lot. So there was a lot of growth downstream of E-Z5018, a strongly growing male population or various populations.

The most important major branch is E-S2979, which descendants were strongly represented among e.g. Avar era Hungarians and are the most widespread lineages in Central and East Asia, up to Northern China. The starting point of E-S2979 would be placed at very late Eastern Otomani (Gyulavarsand end phase)-beginning of Suciu de Sus or a related culture from that time frame (1.600-1.500 BC).

It looks like a peak growth into continued major expansion period from Channelled Ware in the Transitional period to Basarabi, therefore from about 1.200-700 BC. I expect E-Z5018 to pop in Basarabi.

 

[kingjohn]

You can check the trees on YFull and FTDNA:
https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-Z5018/
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-Z5018/tree

What's specific about E-Z5018 is, that while it has a lot of smaller branches too, it has a lot of really big, major, fairly widespread branches, which on their own can reach significant percentages in various regions, which surpass many older subclades of E-V13 by a lot. So there was a lot of growth downstream of E-Z5018, a strongly growing male population or various populations.

The most important major branch is E-S2979, which descendants were strongly represented among e.g. Avar era Hungarians and are the most widespread lineages in Central and East Asia, up to Northern China. The starting point of E-S2979 would be placed at very late Eastern Otomani (Gyulavarsand end phase)-beginning of Suciu de Sus or a related culture from that time frame (1.600-1.500 BC).

It looks like a peak growth into continued major expansion period from Channelled Ware in the Transitional period to Basarabi, therefore from about 1.200-700 BC. I expect E-Z5018 to pop in Basarabi.

pribislav anlaysis ( of one of the e-v13 polish roman period remains )

PCA0495; 100-300 AD; Pruszcz Gdański, Pomerania, Poland; Wielbark_IA; E1b1b-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>BY152493>BY152552>Y126090 * (xY160232)

 

[Friesday]

My northern french cousin is E-V13. It's rare?

 

[Riverman]

My northern french cousin is E-V13. It's rare?

Not that rare and I have a couple of French and German French matches on FTDNA and YFull. Most are not that close though, but for some I simply don't know, because they didn't test any further. If the French would have been tested like Albanians or English, Northern and Eastern France in particular would be dotted with E-V13, since while E-V13 is rather rare in France, but still not that uncommon after all. It is just about more testing. Would be great if you cousin does an NGS test (either BigY at FTDNA or WGS and upload to YFull).

 

[Riverman]

I came across an interesting observation based on matches and project members on FTDNA, that there is a particular concentration of E-V13 presence and diversity in Gabrovo, especially East of the city, and North of the Balkan mountains, in part at the slopes of it. This seems to be confirmed to some degree by the paper which presented the E-V13 frequency, which peaked in Bulgaria in the central regions of Lovech and Haskovo.

A map of the Balkan mountain slopes with Gabrovo:

Obviously some mountain pastoralists, like many Vlachs were, could account for that to some degree. Any other regional history or correlation which anybody knows about? The mountainous area is, even beside the Vlachs and long before, an area to retreat upon in times of danger and foreign invasions. Unless particularly many people emigrated from that area, unlike other zones of Bulgaria, there is quite a concentration of testers and diversity there, along the Northern Balkan mountain slopes, East of Gabrovo, mostly within the Gabrovo province:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabrovo_Province

Branch examples for those which tested further, those are mostly pretty Balkan-Bulgarian specific:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FT61332/tree
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y173089/
(multiple members, closest non-Bulgarian match is a Serbian, so a South Slavic/Vlach orientation and a recent founder event)
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FT61086/tree
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FT61105/
(old branch, closest are Finnish in an unsure case, far removed also, and at an even longer distance Irish)
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FT178803/tree
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y136929/
(old branch, closest are Danish at a distance, a bit closer unknowns from the USA)

If anybody can add something to this observation, you are welcomed.

 

[kingjohn]

PCA0110; 124-257 AD; Masłomęcz, Poland; Wielbark_IA; E1b1b-V13 (xZ1057)

 

[Riverman]

PCA0110; 124-257 AD; Masłomęcz, Poland; Wielbark_IA; E1b1b-V13 (xZ1057)

I saw it on AG, a bit disappointment, because he was considered more derived in the paper.

 

[kingjohn]

I saw it on AG, a bit disappointment, because he was considered more derived in the paper.

I understand
I count more on pribislav with all due respect
To the rsearchers in this paper
He is the best in this

P.s
Though there other experts in anthrogenica
Bummer that they are closing it

forgot to mention ted kandell aka (open genomes)
he is also great in analysing bam files y calls
he is on the level of pribislav but i just don't see him in anthrogenica or other forums

 

[Riverman]

I understand
I count more on pribislav with all due respect
To the rsearchers in this paper
He is the best in this
P.s
Though there other experts in anthrogenica
Bummer that they are closing it

I trust him too, I'm just disappointed by even the newer papers, with some more recent samples and sampling, still don't get a more downstream, safe position for the E-V13 branches. Hopefully the samples end up on FTDNA and YFull as well, probably they can make something more out of it.

 

[kingjohn]

hi,
not that old
late medieval berlin ( even beginning of modern period)
but there is 1 confirmed e-v13

Genetic Analysis of Multiple Burials from the Medieval Churchyard from the St. Peters Church of Old Cölln/Berlin

Abstract
This article presents the genetic research results of selected multiple burials from one of the oldest medieval cemeteries in Berlin. Extensive excavations since 2007 have uncovered 3,121 graves containing 3,778 individuals at the former St. Peters churchyard in the city centre of the German capital Berlin. The use of the area as a cemetery started around 1150 and ended in 1717. The parish belonged to the medieval city of Cölln one of the two founding cores of Berlin. Among the found graves was a noticeably high amount (12%) of multiple burials. Eight selected grave complexes, which contained in total 17 individuals, were chosen that indicated some kind of relationship based on the arrangement of the bodies. Our main focus was to investigate the role of biological kinship in these medieval burial customs. Additionally we provide data about the genetic ancestry of all individuals as well as phenotyping predictions.

source:
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4534760

 

[Riverman]

hi,
not that old
late medieval berlin ( even beginning of modern period)
but there is 1 confirmed e-v13

Genetic Analysis of Multiple Burials from the Medieval Churchyard from the St. Peters Church of Old Cölln/Berlin

Abstract
This article presents the genetic research results of selected multiple burials from one of the oldest medieval cemeteries in Berlin. Extensive excavations since 2007 have uncovered 3,121 graves containing 3,778 individuals at the former St. Peters churchyard in the city centre of the German capital Berlin. The use of the area as a cemetery started around 1150 and ended in 1717. The parish belonged to the medieval city of Cölln one of the two founding cores of Berlin. Among the found graves was a noticeably high amount (12%) of multiple burials. Eight selected grave complexes, which contained in total 17 individuals, were chosen that indicated some kind of relationship based on the arrangement of the bodies. Our main focus was to investigate the role of biological kinship in these medieval burial customs. Additionally we provide data about the genetic ancestry of all individuals as well as phenotyping predictions.

source:
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4534760

I tried it with NEVGEN and if I have done everything right that's what you get out of it:
Probability of unsupported subclade: 71.56%
Haplogroup Probability Fitness Fitness 2
1 E1b1b V13>>S7461 13.87 39.88 0.89
2 E1b1b V13>>Z5018> S2979> Z16659>Y3183 6.23 39.16 0.83
3 E1b1b V13>>Z5018> S2979> Z16659>L241 5.4 38.79 0.76

 

[Valerius]

I came across an interesting observation based on matches and project members on FTDNA, that there is a particular concentration of E-V13 presence and diversity in Gabrovo, especially East of the city, and North of the Balkan mountains, in part at the slopes of it. This seems to be confirmed to some degree by the paper which presented the E-V13 frequency, which peaked in Bulgaria in the central regions of Lovech and Haskovo.

A map of the Balkan mountain slopes with Gabrovo:

Obviously some mountain pastoralists, like many Vlachs were, could account for that to some degree. Any other regional history or correlation which anybody knows about? The mountainous area is, even beside the Vlachs and long before, an area to retreat upon in times of danger and foreign invasions. Unless particularly many people emigrated from that area, unlike other zones of Bulgaria, there is quite a concentration of testers and diversity there, along the Northern Balkan mountain slopes, East of Gabrovo, mostly within the Gabrovo province:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabrovo_Province

Branch examples for those which tested further, those are mostly pretty Balkan-Bulgarian specific:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FT61332/tree
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y173089/
(multiple members, closest non-Bulgarian match is a Serbian, so a South Slavic/Vlach orientation and a recent founder event)
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FT61086/tree
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FT61105/
(old branch, closest are Finnish in an unsure case, far removed also, and at an even longer distance Irish)
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FT178803/tree
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y136929/
(old branch, closest are Danish at a distance, a bit closer unknowns from the USA)

If anybody can add something to this observation, you are welcomed.

This area also coincides with the highest autosomal levels of the Slavic element - although V13 is unrelated to that.

Regarding Vlach presence there in the Medieval times - not impossible - although the presence of Vlach toponymy is usually restricted to Southern Bulgarian mountains like Rila, Pirin, Rhodopes.

 

[Riverman]

This area also coincides with the highest autosomal levels of the Slavic element - although V13 is unrelated to that.

Regarding Vlach presence there in the Medieval times - not impossible - although the presence of Vlach toponymy is usually restricted to Southern Bulgarian mountains like Rila, Pirin, Rhodopes.

Going by the available data, Bulgarians have more Slavic-related E-V13 than some Romanian regions, which in turn have more overlap with Albanians. Bulgarians have more often overlaps with Northern European and Slavic E-V13 branches than most other Southern groups. This could of course go both ways, either a lot of the modern E-V13 came down recently, or moved up recently. The overlap is not too recent, but goes back to the Iron Age usually, basically La Tene/Dacian era onwards.

 

[eastara]

Making theories on the present distribution of V13 in Bulgaria is not very correct.
I can say that the numerous samples from Central Balkan mountains is a sample bias, due to active recruitment of related people in the Central Balkan maintains project.
Further to that there were some people migrating to the small towns in that area all the way from Macedonia and even Albania. There is our Arbananasi village, I was surprised to find the same toponymics also in Serbia, Montenegro, etc.
Eastern Balkan mts. were depopulated at the start of Ottoman rule. This is the reason the Sultans from Istanbul liked to go hunting there. Later it was inhabited almost exclusively by Turks, there were only 2 or 3 Bulgarian villages in 18c. After Bulgaria became independent most of the Turks fled and at their place came Bulgarians from different regions, those close to the Black sea were predominantly refugees from Eastern Thrace.
I have noted many times that Eastern Bulgaria is a genetic sink with people coming from different directions only in the last 200-300years.

 

[Valerius]

Going by the available data, Bulgarians have more Slavic-related E-V13 than some Romanian regions, which in turn have more overlap with Albanians. Bulgarians have more often overlaps with Northern European and Slavic E-V13 branches than most other Southern groups. This could of course go both ways, either a lot of the modern E-V13 came down recently, or moved up recently. The overlap is not too recent, but goes back to the Iron Age usually, basically La Tene/Dacian era onwards.

Seems both ways - I think the Slavic migrations to Central Europe/Northern Balkans picked up E-V13 (and probably other haplogroups) and they spread them later around Eastern Europe.

Making theories on the present distribution of V13 in Bulgaria is not very correct.
I can say that the numerous samples from Central Balkan mountains is a sample bias, due to active recruitment of related people in the Central Balkan maintains project.
Further to that there were some people migrating to the small towns in that area all the way from Macedonia and even Albania. There is our Arbananasi village, I was surprised to find the same toponymics also in Serbia, Montenegro, etc.
Eastern Balkan mts. were depopulated at the start of Ottoman rule. This is the reason the Sultans from Istanbul liked to go hunting there. Later it was inhabited almost exclusively by Turks, there were only 2 or 3 Bulgarian villages in 18c. After Bulgaria became independent most of the Turks fled and at their place came Bulgarians from different regions, those close to the Black sea were predominantly refugees from Eastern Thrace.
I have noted many times that Eastern Bulgaria is a genetic sink with people coming from different directions only in the last 200-300years.

Yes, Eastern Bulgarians appear to be migrants from many different places. Seems that the re-population started with migrations of Ruptsi from the Rhodopes to Strandja and then people from Macedonia - probably on a very early level in 17th century; then the Zagortsi migration to the South-East which is still visible. Then Ruptsi populated the Thracian plane south of Maritsa, and the Northern part were Balkandjis from the Balkan mountain range. And finally the migration during the interwar period which contributed as well. Northern Bulgaria also experienced changes - the Balkandji migrations into the plains. Considering the various movements of people in recent times, it seems that the only stable level of population was revolving around the Balkan mountain range and the Rhodopes. Not sure what was the situation in wider-Macedonia but it seems it was always populated.

eastara, based on the current data, what percentage of the E-V13 can be considered local?

 

[eastara]

I can't bet on percentage, however it is evident some of the Bulgarian V13 are not autochthonous on the Balkan, but probably came during the migration period, with the Slavs, Goths, etc. However we don't have enough deep tests like the Albanians and almost every new one comes with a different random branch.

 

[Riverman]

I can't bet on percentage, however it is evident some of the Bulgarian V13 are not autochthonous on the Balkan, but probably came during the migration period, with the Slavs, Goths, etc. However we don't have enough deep tests like the Albanians and almost every new one comes with a different random branch.

Actually going by the current tests, we can already say that Bulgaria has a pretty central and highly diverse position, compared to some of its neighbours. Like I would split them into 3 groups:
1. very old branches which look like they are local at least since the Early Iron Age
2. fairly old branches which might or might not have spread with Northern people into Bulgaria and further South, this is particularly true for some of the main E-Z5018/E-Z5017 branches
3. a couple of younger branches which seem to have fairly recent origins from a common root with Vlachs and Albanians

The story of 1.+3. is pretty clear at first look, the background of 2. is what's the real question. A very high E-Z5018 proportion is typical for the Slavic branches of E-V13. Bulgaria is not in this group, but in between, because it has these 3 categories in a fairly balanced way and a fairly high proportion of old South Eastern branches from the Bronze to Early Iron Age.

 

[Hawk]

Actually going by the current tests, we can already say that Bulgaria has a pretty central and highly diverse position, compared to some of its neighbours. Like I would split them into 3 groups:
1. very old branches which look like they are local at least since the Early Iron Age
2. fairly old branches which might or might not have spread with Northern people into Bulgaria and further South, this is particularly true for some of the main E-Z5018/E-Z5017 branches
3. a couple of younger branches which seem to have fairly recent origins from a common root with Vlachs and Albanians

The story of 1.+3. is pretty clear at first look, the background of 2. is what's the real question. A very high E-Z5018 proportion is typical for the Slavic branches of E-V13. Bulgaria is not in this group, but in between, because it has these 3 categories in a fairly balanced way and a fairly high proportion of old South Eastern branches from the Bronze to Early Iron Age.

Enforcing engineering principles on the premise of yfull subclades listing is like doing Turkish Coffee Fortune Telling.

Bulgaria not being in E-V13 Z5018 means that E-V13 Z5018 had more of a Central Balkan spread in antiquity perhaps. Z5018 has a spread in Central-Western Europe where no Slavic presence was recorded, you could give various explanations, assimilated natives to Celts when they ran away from Dacian massacre and expulsion from Balkans, Roman military, earlier Hallstatt presence etc, etc. Various and more complex explanation can be in the game.