To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

[Riverman]

It's Cuz the Parisii were named after Paris the Trojan. Trojan Elites were largely Dardani, Mysian, Phrygian etc... all of Daco-Thracian stock and exiled across Europe and different parts since the fall of Troy. Doesn't the modern day Paris-area have high E-V13?

Again, I'm joking. But the parallels are fun to think about.

The high E1b1b around Paris seems to be mostly the result of recent migrants from Africa, rather. Some of the highest percentages of E-V13 in France come from ethnic Germans in Alsace-Lorraine. Alsace-Lorraine is in the high frequency zone of E-V13 within the German speaking world, together with the Eifel-Hunsrück area, basically most of Rhineland-Palatainate, South Hesse and Franconia, in Northern Bavaria. The Rhenish area in general seems to have an increased level.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

What does the Illyrians have in common with the idea of a south-east Balkan homeland and expansion point for E-V13?
Based on language and other things among the rest, the Thracians and the Illyrians were totally unrelated people.
Plus, they weren't even neighbours for the most part and the only border they shared seems to be along Morava.
Unfortunately, we lack samples from exactly this area from the BA and the IA(most samples from Serbia from these periods come from far north).

The fact is, the process of spread of the Thracians can be followed archaeologically with the Stamped Ware and it's starting point is Bulgaria towards Romania and north-east. On the territory of Romania and the lower Danube these Thracian people interacted heavily with the La Tene Celts and the Scythians.

Now, I'm not denying any theories, I just think it's absurd to waste any energy about this and will leave it for the time to resolve this issue. We will get new samples in future that will help us to narrow down the territory where the origin is.

However you have to remember that even before the Stamped Ware from the EIA, most of the cultures in BA Bulgaria had more in common with the cultures from the Carpathian Basin and the lower Danube than say those from the West Balkans. Accordingly, movements way before the EIA of people and ideas from the regions in question are expected.

Samples from Transylvania will be out in 2024, we can have this talk then.

 

[torzio]

What does the Illyrians have in common with the idea of a south-east Balkan homeland and expansion point for E-V13?
Based on language and other things among the rest, the Thracians and the Illyrians were totally unrelated people.
Plus, they weren't even neighbours for the most part and the only border they shared seems to be along Morava.
Unfortunately, we lack samples from exactly this area from the BA and the IA(most samples from Serbia from these periods come from far north).

The fact is, the process of spread of the Thracians can be followed archaeologically with the Stamped Ware and it's starting point is Bulgaria towards Romania and north-east. On the territory of Romania and the lower Danube these Thracian people interacted heavily with the La Tene Celts and the Scythians.

Now, I'm not denying any theories, I just think it's absurd to waste any energy about this and will leave it for the time to resolve this issue. We will get new samples in future that will help us to narrow down the territory where the origin is.

However you have to remember that even before the Stamped Ware from the EIA, most of the cultures in BA Bulgaria had more in common with the cultures from the Carpathian Basin and the lower Danube than say those from the West Balkans. Accordingly, movements way before the EIA of people and ideas from the regions in question are expected.

People are forgetting the Celts of serbia and their E-V13

Agree that Illyrians and Thracians have zero in common as Illyrian began around modern Czechia area , same as the Italics and Celtic .......all 3 in the same zone before expanding out

Are you confusing Halstatt celts with La Tene Celts ? .....................La Tene only began in 450BC

 

[torzio]

Is their any E-V13 in the Messapic people ?

Messapic where from the Salento Peninsula........also called Calabri ...............after what the Messapics called themselves , the Galabri, a dardanian tribe from Kosovo who departed Kosovo for the coast in 700BC

I am checking if their is a celtic influence from celtic settlement in Kosovo through to the salento peninsula
Celtic god, Teutates...............through to Teuta.............through to its original name Taotor

 

[Riverman]

Is their any E-V13 in the Messapic people ?

Messapic where from the Salento Peninsula........also called Calabri ...............after what the Messapics called themselves , the Galabri, a dardanian tribe from Kosovo who departed Kosovo for the coast in 700BC

I am checking if their is a celtic influence from celtic settlement in Kosovo through to the salento peninsula
Celtic god, Teutates...............through to Teuta.............through to its original name Taotor

I wouldn't exclude it, even though we currently have no evidence for it. Like I wrote in the past, there were specific items and customs spreading from around Belegis II-Gáva to the Alpine, North Italian and South East Italian areas, like flame shaped spearheads, specific types of swords, Carpathian-type hoards etc. Whether some of these items were brought in by people associated with Belegis II-Gáva and therefore likely being E-V13 too, I don't know.
However, in the Illyrian areas which touched those formations more directly, we later find E-V13 nearby, like in Northern Croatia. These are exactly these IA E-V13 carriers from an Illyrian context and with an Illyrian autosomal profile Bruzmi and others were writing about.

 

[alxfb]

In this context it should mentioned that we got new modern Iranian samples, and with one recent branch connected to the English (could go either way), we again have two very old E-V13 branches, like Sea Peoples or Cimmerian old, no newer Thracian, Roman etc. settlers in the Near East. All of them come from Western Iran, but from different ethnicities.

That's the paper:

High incidence of AZF duplications in clan-structured Iranian populations detected through Y chromosome sequencing read depth analysis - Scientific Reports

The ampliconic region of the human Y chromosome consists of large duplicated sequences that can undergo non-allelic homologous recombination (NAHR), resulting in structural rearrangements that may cause infertility, especially when they occur in the azoospermia factor b/c (AZFb/c) region...

www.nature.com

In total there are 87 samples, of which 6 are E-M78, including

3 x E-V13 (E1b1b1a1b1a)

R009
Bakhtiari
Shahrekord, Chahar Mahal Bakhtiari Province, Iran
Nomadic
33,26
E1b1b-M78
E1b1b1a1b1a

R082
Persian
Tehran, Tehran Province, Iran
Sedentary
44,45
E1b1b-M78
E1b1b1a1b1a

R087
Azeri
Tabriz, East Azerbaijan Province,Iran
Sedentary
41,25
E1b1b-M78
E1b1b1a1b1a

According to Capsian, these are the subclades determined by theytree:

E-V13
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y62522/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y93395/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-S7461/

About 3,4 % is not that shabby for Iran, if just counting Western Iran, the percentage would be even higher in this sample.

In the Gulf Arabs E-V13 is even higher, but a lot of it can be attributed to a recent founder, whereas here the diversity seems to be fairly high as well.

Very interesting, comrade! Thanks for the article. I'm going to read it today!

Regarding these E-V13 in Western Iran: notice that the 3 individuals you mentioned are not very far from Luristan. Several researchers indicate that the Iron Age in Luristan began with a supposed (Thraco-)Cimmerian invasion and that the artifacts found there are extremely similar to those of steppe cultures - mainly the Karasuk culture, which is one of the main drivers for the development of Chernogorovka complex too.

I could risk saying without fear that these E-V13 individuals from Iran are direct descendants of Chernogorovka (Thraco-)Cimmerian settlers in Luristan.

 

[mount123]

And they were all Pelasgian-Illyrian a.k.a Albanian race anyway.

No, no they were ancient Slavic Thracian-Illyrian people aka I2a-Y3120+, R1a-Z282+ from the ancient Slavic civilization that built the Slavic pyramids in Bosniakistan.

See the tremendous discovery Mr. Meho made in the high quality thread "are Slavs in the Balkans more Paleo-Balkan than Slavic?". Very shocking! These I2a-Y3120+ ancient Illyrian-Thracian Slavs were giants OMG

Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

Aspurg Defter of Isa-beg Krajiste from 1455 (Krajiste Isa bega Isakovica, zbirni katastarski popis iz 1455.), Sabanovic pg127 GULAM (ar.Gulam) boy, servant, slave, vassal Therefore the evidence does not exist. I asked for a proof and link where it is claimed that word Gulam means servant or...

www.eupedia.com

 

[Riverman]

Very interesting, comrade! Thanks for the article. I'm going to read it today!

Regarding these E-V13 in Western Iran: notice that the 3 individuals you mentioned are not very far from Luristan. Several researchers indicate that the Iron Age in Luristan began with a supposed (Thraco-)Cimmerian invasion and that the artifacts found there are extremely similar to those of steppe cultures - mainly the Karasuk culture, which is one of the main drivers for the development of Chernogorovka complex too.

I could risk saying without fear that these E-V13 individuals from Iran are direct descendants of Chernogorovka (Thraco-)Cimmerian settlers in Luristan.

Didn't the Kurds and other Iranian people of the region receive a strong input from the late Scythians as well? I think its plausible that some came in with (Thraco-) Cimmerians, but Scythians are an option as well. Yet what speaks for Sea Peoples from the West, or Cimmerians from the North, are the old, separated branches. The Scythians after contacts to the Western steppe, Moldova and Vekerzug, seem to have received more typically younger, very widespread branches in moderns, like under E-S2979, like the ones found from Hungary to Northern China.
These old branches might have really coming from a different, much older layer of first contacts, for which Cimmerian is a distinct possibility.

 

[TetaEglantina]

No, no they were ancient Slavic Thracian-Illyrian people aka I2a-Y3120+, R1a-Z282+ from the ancient Slavic civilization that built the Slavic pyramids in Bosniakistan.

See the tremendous discovery Mr. Meho made in the high quality thread "are Slavs in the Balkans more Paleo-Balkan than Slavic?". Very shocking! These I2a-Y3120+ ancient Illyrian-Thracian Slavs were giants OMG

Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

Aspurg Defter of Isa-beg Krajiste from 1455 (Krajiste Isa bega Isakovica, zbirni katastarski popis iz 1455.), Sabanovic pg127 GULAM (ar.Gulam) boy, servant, slave, vassal Therefore the evidence does not exist. I asked for a proof and link where it is claimed that word Gulam means servant or...

www.eupedia.com

Yes South Slavs are the tallest people in the world and correlating with higher frequency of i2. Doesn't mean you should get all weird about it, quit being negative

 

[mount123]

Yes South Slavs are the tallest people in the world and correlating with higher frequency of i2. Doesn't mean you should get all weird about it, quit being negative

 

[TetaEglantina]

View attachment 14934

Here is the science

 

[mount123]

Tiktok, that's called pseudoscience. There are actual peer reviewed scientific papers published in respectable scientific journals that cover issues such as heredity and transmission. Spoiler, it's got more to do with auDNA

 

[TetaEglantina]

Tiktok, that's called pseudoscience. There are actual peer reviewed scientific papers published in respectable scientific journals that cover issues such as heredity and transmission. Spoiler, it's got more to do with auDNA

Tiktok is for children, actually not even for children - make sure your kids avoid it.
South Slavs being tallest in the world is fact, not pseudoscience. What autosomal DNA do they have that's different compared to everyone else, I'll wait

 

[Hawk]

View attachment 14934

Breaking Bad was dope, the occassional humor was top notch as well.

 

[alxfb]

Didn't the Kurds and other Iranian people of the region receive a strong input from the late Scythians as well? I think its plausible that some came in with (Thraco-) Cimmerians, but Scythians are an option as well. Yet what speaks for Sea Peoples from the West, or Cimmerians from the North, are the old, separated branches. The Scythians after contacts to the Western steppe, Moldova and Vekerzug, seem to have received more typically younger, very widespread branches in moderns, like under E-S2979, like the ones found from Hungary to Northern China.
These old branches might have really coming from a different, much older layer of first contacts, for which Cimmerian is a distinct possibility.

It's certainly worth thinking about the late Scythians too, comrade! In the same way that we have a Ukrainian Scythian with J2a Y-DNA shared with BMAC populations and strong evidence of their presence in Tepe Hissar, for example. It's an extremely plausible scenario of Western Scythian intrusions in that region with E-V13 (as is the case with that Scythian-influenced E-V13 sample from Vekerzug and even the "scy197" that shows some minor Scythian-Novocherkassk influence)

 

[Neander]

The reason why i put the title is because i just got inspired by Mario Gavranovic paper: https://www.researchgate.net/public...hern_Carpathian_Basin_and_the_Western_Balkans

To Burn or not to Burn: Inhumation Versus Cremation at the End of the Bronze Age in the Region between the Southern Carpathian Basin and the Western Balkans

My question is were the people who practiced cremation different from the ones who practiced inhumation in this specific Late Bronze Age context?

Historically they were the same: Panonians were illyrians too.

It is general tendency that cremation be practiced in colder climates or northern areas. In south however and specially because of rocky terrain, inhumation was accompanied by stone giant tumuluses

 

[TetaEglantina]

Historically they were the same: Panonians were illyrians too.

It is general tendency that cremation be practiced in colder climates or northern areas. In south however and specially because of rocky terrain, inhumation was accompanied by stone giant tumuluses

Nothing to do with this, cremation was practised in central and eastern Europe since early bronze age and possibly earlier and then spread into west through Urnfield (1200BC+)

 

[Neander]

Nothing to do with this, cremation was practised in central and eastern Europe since early bronze age and possibly earlier and then spread into west through Urnfield (1200BC+)

well it was practised also by american indians. But we must be reasonable people here, take into consideration other facts. We dont know about urnfields because they were prehistoric, but panonians had illyrian names, for example, name Bato, we can find in dessidiates, breuci but also among dardaniansand even in illyrian tribes in todays territory of Albania. So we say that panoanians were illyrians and diference in the death rituals is caused by climatic factors, even in that early age as you state.

 

[TetaEglantina]

well it was practised also by american indians. But we must be reasonable people here, take into consideration other facts. We dont know about urnfields because they were prehistoric, but panonians had illyrian names, for example, name Bato, we can find in dessidiates, breuci but also among dardaniansand even in illyrian tribes in todays territory of Albania. So we say that panoanians were illyrians and diference in the death rituals is caused by climatic factors, even in that early age as you state.

We do know about Urnfield because many urns have been found and human ashes. Read this -

The First ‘Urnfields’ in the Plains of the Danube and the Po - Journal of World Prehistory

Archaeological research is currently redefining how large-scale changes occurred in prehistoric times. In addition to the long-standing theoretical dichotomy between ‘cultural transmission’ and ‘demic diffusion’, many alternative models borrowed from sociology can be used to explain the spread...

link.springer.com

Cremations among American Indians were rare and they didn't use urns -

American Indian cremation pit found

Exposed by erosion at the edge of a crumbling bluff, the pit discovered beneath 2 feet of sandy dirt at first appeared to be a grave just long and deep enough to bury a human body.

www.google.com

 

[MandM]

Samples from Transylvania will be out in 2024, we can have this talk then.

Most interesting, do we know from what time period they are from?