Veneti

piero said:
This is in line with the result that Ötzi the Iceman, the Similaun Man, has a Y-line DNA haplogroup G2a2b. (From the Docu-Movie: "Ötzi, ein Archäologiekrimi" by Christine Sprachmann. TV-Broadcast by 3sat 10 August 2011 and br-alpha 13 September 2011).
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Keller et al 2012 - Ötzi
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v3/n2/pdf/ncomms1701.pdf

Ötzi was G2a-P15/L91 (G2a2b former G2a4) this Hg is app. mostly in modern-days in Corsica and Sardinia;

Tyrol (Reutte district) = 8.5% G2a-P15 [261 samples] Erhart et al 2012
East Tyrol = 7.4% G2a-P15 [270 samples] Niederstätter et al 2012
NE Italy (Veneto) = 6.8% G2a-P15 [73 samples] Boattini et al 2013
NE Italy (Trient prov.) = 11.9% G2a-P15 [67 samples] Battaglia et al 2009
NW Italy (Lombardy/Piedmont/Liguria) = 8.1% G2a-P15 [161 samples] Boattini et al 2013
Bavaria = 3.2% G2a-P15 [218 samples] Rebala et al 2013
Slovakia = 4.8% G2a-P15 [164 samples] Rebala et al 2013
Ukraine = 3.3% G2a-P15 [92 samples] Battaglia et al 2009
Bulgaria = 4.8% G2a-P15 [808 samples] Karachanak et al 2013
Sardinia = 9.9% G2a-P15 [1200 samples] Francalacci et al 2013

Sile has recently posted about 2 new studies that suggest that the majority G2a-P15 lineage in modern-day Europe and the modern-day Alps is not L91 but L497; If i understood that correct;
 
Nobody1 said:
Keller et al 2012 - Ötzi
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v3/n2/pdf/ncomms1701.pdf

Ötzi was G2a-P15/L91 (G2a2b former G2a4) this Hg is app. mostly in modern-days in Corsica and Sardinia;

Tyrol (Reutte district) = 8.5% G2a-P15 [261 samples] Erhart et al 2012
East Tyrol = 7.4% G2a-P15 [270 samples] Niederstätter et al 2012
NE Italy (Veneto) = 6.8% G2a-P15 [73 samples] Boattini et al 2013
NE Italy (Trient prov.) = 11.9% G2a-P15 [67 samples] Battaglia et al 2009
NW Italy (Lombardy/Piedmont/Liguria) = 8.1% G2a-P15 [161 samples] Boattini et al 2013
Bavaria = 3.2% G2a-P15 [218 samples] Rebala et al 2013
Slovakia = 4.8% G2a-P15 [164 samples] Rebala et al 2013
Ukraine = 3.3% G2a-P15 [92 samples] Battaglia et al 2009
Bulgaria = 4.8% G2a-P15 [808 samples] Karachanak et al 2013
Sardinia = 9.9% G2a-P15 [1200 samples] Francalacci et al 2013

Sile has recently posted about 2 new studies that suggest that the majority G2a-P15 lineage in modern-day Europe and the modern-day Alps is not L91 but L497; If i understood that correct;
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yes here it is

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-Celtic-marker?p=412523&viewfull=1#post412523

about 3% is otzi marker
 
Hay, I can contribute with some info about Slovenia G2a. We have around 4,19 G2a (all G). There are two main subgroups of G2a in Slovenia, L497 and M406, with almost the same frequency. But yes, there is a little bit more L497 (9 people). M406 (6 people). And there are 5 samples I could not put them in subgroups (just few analised markers). In eupedia is written that M406 is from neolitic and L497 came in Europe with Indoeuropeans in bronze age.
 
About Venets: we should waith on the results of genetic studies (I hope!) that will tell us what haplotypes and haplogroups belonged to the ancient Venets in Italy and in Slovenia and on other areas and then we should compare all this haplotypes between them and with haplotypes with now day living men in Italy, Slovenia etc. I think Venets had more R1a, but this is just my oppinion. I really want to know this. Slovenian R1a (38%) is mix of different branches, but allmost all is in Z280. I found one old european R1a, too. Inside of it (Z280), there is a large group called balto-carpathian branch (called also carpatho-dalmatian branch) and it is very specific for Slovenia and also Croatia (but I do not know if just for west Croatia). Allmost all younger R1a-M458 (3-5%) is west slavic and not central european.
 
Marjeta said:
About Venets: we should waith on the results of genetic studies (I hope!) that will tell us what haplotypes and haplogroups belonged to the ancient Venets in Italy and in Slovenia and on other areas and then we should compare all this haplotypes between them and with haplotypes with now day living men in Italy, Slovenia etc. I think Venets had more R1a, but this is just my oppinion. I really want to know this. Slovenian R1a (38%) is mix of different branches, but allmost all is in Z280. I found one old european R1a, too. Inside of it (Z280), there is a large group called balto-carpathian branch (called also carpatho-dalmatian branch) and it is very specific for Slovenia and also Croatia (but I do not know if just for west Croatia). Allmost all younger R1a-M458 (3-5%) is west slavic and not central european.
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according to this site and all the combined papers which where tested, it says 13% for friuli for R1a and only 2% for veneti

http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml
 
Marjeta said:
Hay, I can contribute with some info about Slovenia G2a. We have around 4,19 G2a (all G). There are two main subgroups of G2a in Slovenia, L497 and M406, with almost the same frequency. But yes, there is a little bit more L497 (9 people). M406 (6 people). And there are 5 samples I could not put them in subgroups (just few analised markers). In eupedia is written that M406 is from neolitic and L497 came in Europe with Indoeuropeans in bronze age.
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that would be interesting

according to the paper where the stats came from , it can be bronze-age , but it did not migrate to western austria. It was formed in western austria. From there it went to areas on the adjoining map in the link.
I am speaking about G-L497
 
piero said:
This is in line with the result that Ötzi the Iceman, the Similaun Man, has a Y-line DNA haplogroup G2a2b. (From the Docu-Movie: "Ötzi, ein Archäologiekrimi" by Christine Sprachmann. TV-Broadcast by 3sat 10 August 2011 and br-alpha 13 September 2011).


Sorry Moesan: the ancient geographer Strabo wrote about a common belive on a connection between Brittany and Adriatic Veneti.


In opinion of Francoise Bader (from Sorbonne) they start from Anatolia, they reach Lusatian area and then they went down to Italy. This is also my opinion, in a cultural sense (I don't know if it has also a genetic connection).
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My information was a second hand one, unprecise and I never red latine in the text (helas!): it spoke of a majority of ancient "historians", not telling all of them were of the same opinion... the genetic male ligneages seems separating (based on modern assumptions it is true) clearly Veneti of Brittany and Veneti of NE Italy; wait ancient DNA...
concerning Y-G, M406 and L497 are "brother" SNPs, "son" of L32- L91, is "son" of L32 too, seems a "cousin", I suppose come by sea at Cardial -
I confess I'm not able to put a cultural name on M406 and L497: they are continental I presume, via Danau river - neolithical by origin, but we know neolithical people were later involved in I-E movements East to West (and too West to East in Steppes)... so?
good sunday
 
In general view in North East Italy we had Terramare culture (from 1600 b.C) then this culture collapsed and was repalced in 1200 b.C by Urnfield culture. Later there was expansion of Hallstatt culture but it affected North East Italy only indirectly. I don't know if you agree about this timeline and secuences, the topic is debated.
Diapositiva1.jpgDiapositiva2.jpgDiapositiva1.jpg
 
Diapositiva2.jpg


PS Why so small my pictures?
 
piero said:
In general view in North East Italy we had Terramare culture (from 1600 b.C) then this culture collapsed and was repalced in 1200 b.C by Urnfield culture. Later there was expansion of Hallstatt culture but it affected North East Italy only indirectly. I don't know if you agree about this timeline and secuences, the topic is debated.
View attachment 6044View attachment 6045View attachment 6046
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if we go back 100 and 200 years to older books, which the authors in those days gave far more detail than today, we find some things, in which the questions have still not been answered.

San thoedore of Amasea .....first patron saint of venice in 452AD. the other column in the Molo. Amasea is in ancient Hittite lands the northern part. it was the birth place of Strabo. Why was he chosen?
or was it the other Theodore from Heraclea Pontis which is in Anatolia under bithynia ......which is Thracian
or Theodore of Mesembria which is the only Doric port in the black sea in modern Bulgaria. These dorians came from Caria in SW anatolia ( sometimes called carians) who where ancient Minoans.
why the phrygian cap which is hittite in hittite lands was it a symbol of the Doge of Venice.?
Why the the venetian lion an exact copy of the Hittite lion with its asiatic face?

who is not to say the Venetic people where ancient Hittite ( or a branch of them )

these questions have never been answered even though they where brought up in the 18th century.

The history of the veneti lands is .....the liburnians occupied them, from zadar ( croatia) to ravenna ( italy).......later after so time, the veneti moved into the middle of the liburnians and cut them off from each other. Some linguistics state that north picene ( not south picene ) is similar to Liburnian .

these are all sensible questions
 
hittites.gif
who is not to say the Venetic people where ancient Hittite
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Hi Sile, you know so good Venetian history that I think you are a veneto, maybe a Trevigiano (from river Sile). I don't believe Anatolian Veneti were Hittites: as you can see in every map Hittites area isn't over Halis river, there were no Hittites in Paphlagonia. In Paphlagonia in very ancient time were living the people of Pala, with their own Palaic language.
 
piero said:
View attachment 6050
Hi Sile, you know so good Venetian history that I think you are a veneto, maybe a Trevigiano (from river Sile). I don't believe Anatolian Veneti were Hittites: as you can see in every map Hittites area isn't over Halis river, there were no Hittites in Paphlagonia. In Paphlagonia in very ancient time were living the people of Pala, with their own Palaic language.
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yes

and San theodore di Amasea ( if that is the Theodore on the column in venice ) comes from your map in the location of masat huyuk in northern hittite lands
 
Dioecesis_Pontica_400_AD.jpg
Sorry, you are right: Amasea is Hellenopontus not in Paphlagonia. Anyway Paphlagonia is inside Pontus Dioecesis (400 A.D.).
 
What about mtDNA of ancient Veneti? Things are quite clear for Etruscans origin (from Anatolia). Why not to study also Veneti mtDNA in order to clarify their origin?
2069601029_205cbe5ac7.jpg
 
The ancient Veneti have long faded into history Piero; although there are interesting studies on haplogroups across Veneto province, although this would be an analysis of modern venetians and not necessarily the supposedly paphlagonian Turkish Adriatic Veneti.
 
adamo said:
The ancient Veneti have long faded into history Piero; although there are interesting studies on haplogroups across Veneto province, although this would be an analysis of modern venetians and not necessarily the supposedly paphlagonian Turkish Adriatic Veneti.
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I am surprised that since they have 243 skeletons ( mostly women and children ) of venetic lands, that no DNA is mentioned
 
piero said:
Dr. Rossi-Osmida is now arguing about an origin of Veneti from Turkmenistan.
http://www.ilgiornaledivicenza.it/s...paleomito_dei_veneti_rinasce_in_turkmenistan/
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Turkenistan, is the northern border of the Persian empire, these people are not turkic but iranian, most likely parthian or bactrian. The turkic people came from modern western China and invaded europe and the middle-east not earlier than 500AD. They did not arrive in anatolia until 600AD
The Veneti where already in the adriatic more than 1700 years before
 
So the Enetoi came from Turkmenistan wow; f_ _ _ me.....
 
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