Religion What's your religion ?

[Maciamo]

Mandylion

I perfectly understand what you mean. It's just that for me, the true Buddhists are those who follow the teachings of the Buddha, without addition destined to popularise it. The Mahayana sects are mostly the religious popular version I was talking about (except maybe the Zen branches and a few others). The best examples in Japan are the Jodo-shu and Jodo-shinshu who are the "McDonald of Buddhism". Just say the name of Amida and you're saved. Some kind of fast-food self-service.

You will have realised that I criticised above people who think they are Christians but don't believe in the most important philosophical issues of the Bible (the creation, origin of men, nature of God, etc.). That's the same as with the popularisation of Buddhism. They are changing the original doctrine, even radically so, but still want to be called like the true practicisoners. Saints were gradually added to Christianity, until the Reformation got rid of them for Protestants. But Christians Saints are the same kind of deviance as Buddhist gods. Neither Jesus nor Buddha would have acknowledged them.

It's difficult to have a mature discussion with ordinary people about such issues. I think there should be a clear distinction between what you call "historical" Buddhists (or Christians) and the contemporary mainstream, who believe in a perversed form of that religion. I am not saying that purists are better than others. Actually, I'm glad the average Christian has accepted the theory of evolution as well as most of what science has proved the Bible to be wrong. As for Mahayana Buddhist, it's probably a shame they have gone back into all the religiousness and superstiton that the Buddha rejected. Nevertheless, modern and rational people from Mahayana Buddhist background (China, Japan...) have given up all believes altogether. That is why most Japanese under 50 will say they are nor religious.

I'll add a new category to the poll : Mahayana Buddhism. If anybody wants to change their vote, just send me a PM.

 

[Maciamo]

i think many religions came about becasuse people need to have rules.

That's right. People need to have rules and so does society. Monothesit religion have invented an omniscient and omnipotent judging God in the hope people will fear it and respect religious rules, so that humans will live in peace. History has told us that this has failed because there will always be non believers on one side, fundamentalist on the other, and opportunists that manipulate people through religion.

alot teach and practice the same 'golden rule', "(dont) do to others what you would (not) want them do to you." people know whats right and wrong, but unless its written down somewhere...

What about sadomasochists ? There is a whole bunch of them in Japan (or there used to be). Does the "golden rule" allow them to torture people because they like it and wouldn't mind suffering the same ? What if you hate yourself and want to commit suicide ? Does it allow you to kill other people because anyway you don't care about your own life and think others should die too ? I hope not. Everyday exceptions are easy to find. Men do help women at home unless they are asked to, because for a man unsolicited help is seen as an insults to one's abilities. I don't help people who look lost because I wouldn't like to get unsolicited help myself. But I'm happy to help if I am asked directly. However, sometimes it's good to transcend these rules and know that not everybody think or feel the same.

 

[Aryobarzan]

incorrect information

Yes of course. I could also have divided Muslim between Shiite, Sunni and Zoroastrian,

Maciamo, you are incorrect if you would divide Muslims into Shiite, Sunni, and Zoroastrians. Zoroastrianism came long before Islam in Persia. It was one of the first monotheistic religions. There is even a theory out now that the Three Wise Men who followed the star to find Jesus were Zoroastrian priests.

Anyway, my point is that there has been many posts about Islam that have been completely incorrect and based on steriotypical information. In Judaism there is a term for those who spread false steriotypes and base their actions on this misinformation. It is called Anti-Semitism. Unfortunately, when it comes to those same behaviors/ideas applied to Islam we don't have a word for it. Spreading false thruths and misunderstandings is wrong no matter what the religion. I would not claim to be an expert or even feel comfortable talking much about Buddism, because I am not a Buddist and have not studied it. But I am smart enough to know that to get the correct information I would go to someone who has studied Buddism or who is a Buddist. Therefore, those that wish to understand what Islam is about need to talk to someone who is a Muslim. The news and media are not always correct in their articles and stories, so just keep this in mind when you hear stories or posts about Islam or any religion.

Aryobarzan:note:

 

[louie]

As I voted , I'm Christian but just in sunday , tuesday , thursday ............... ...........
no really my point is : i like some morales in christian , but i'm still not convinced with the whole story. I still feel the fear inside all the religions , everyone is afraid of the punishment so they worship this or that ........
I prefer beliving , and I BELIVE that just beliving in something is a great thing ...........But till now i haven't found something to belive in (even my self )____________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

[jeisan]

That's right. People need to have rules and so does society. Monothesit religion have invented an omniscient and omnipotent judging God in the hope people will fear it and respect religious rules, so that humans will live in peace. History has told us that this has failed because there will always be non believers on one side, fundamentalist on the other, and opportunists that manipulate people through religion.

the entire christian church is an opportunistic scam. in the bible jesus says "whenever two or more of you gather in my honor i will be there." so why do they need expensive buildings, silver platters and velvet seats when people can just sit at home with their family or a friend and jesus will be there just the same? if you have god in your heart whats the point of looking for him at church? then they collect billions of dollars annually around the world to do what with it? god sure doesnt get it, for good reason too, if he can create an entire universe im sure he can create anything else he might want.

What about sadomasochists ? There is a whole bunch of them in Japan (or there used to be). Does the "golden rule" allow them to torture people because they like it and wouldn't mind suffering the same ? What if you hate yourself and want to commit suicide ? Does it allow you to kill other people because anyway you don't care about your own life and think others should die too ? I hope not. Everyday exceptions are easy to find. Men do help women at home unless they are asked to, because for a man unsolicited help is seen as an insults to one's abilities. I don't help people who look lost because I wouldn't like to get unsolicited help myself. But I'm happy to help if I am asked directly. However, sometimes it's good to transcend these rules and know that not everybody think or feel the same.

people like that are the execption not the rule.the "golden" rule is for the majority. theres not a single religion, or anything else out there for that matter that will work for/please everybody, save maybe sex. but yeah, everyone if different some like apple pie, others like getting kicked in the ass. i can see that you practice said rule from your statement above about unsolicited help. thats not to say you shouldnt help someone whos drowning because they didnt ask.

 

[Maciamo]

Re: incorrect information

Maciamo, you are incorrect if you would divide Muslims into Shiite, Sunni, and Zoroastrians. Zoroastrianism came long before Islam in Persia. It was one of the first monotheistic religions. There is even a theory out now that the Three Wise Men who followed the star to find Jesus were Zoroastrian priests.

Anyway, my point is that there has been many posts about Islam that have been completely incorrect and based on steriotypical information. In Judaism there is a term for those who spread false steriotypes and base their actions on this misinformation. It is called Anti-Semitism. Unfortunately, when it comes to those same behaviors/ideas applied to Islam we don't have a word for it. Spreading false thruths and misunderstandings is wrong no matter what the religion.

You shouldn't be so overreactive. It seems that I have mistaken in my copy and paste while editing my sentence structure as I often do. I write quickly and rarely double-check. Of course, Zoroatrianism (from the name of its founder Zoroaster, alias Zarathushtra) is much older than Islam. It's about as old as Buddhism (+-2600 yeras old) and I wanted to add it to "rare" religion along with Janism and Shikism, which are all present in India. Zoroatrians are called "Parsi" in India, as originally this religion is from Ancient Persia.

There are few Zoroastrians nowadays, but in India they seem to be doing pretty well in business. Lot's of ultra-rich Indian are actually Zoroastrian, like the Tata family (automobiles...). I also heard that Zoroastrian put their dead in towers where crows come to eat them, because they believe in reincarnation and that the body should go back through the cycle of life as quickly as possible, but maybe you can give me confirmation on this.
I don't know about the 3 wise men being Zoroatrian, but that's plausible.

No need to compare people with anti-semitist for a typing mistake though.

 

[Tare. Aura Violette]

well I believe myself to be Catholic

but I'm not sure, it feels to me I'm becoming a Deist, for sometime now

 

[neko_girl22]

I try to be Christian, yet the list you made doesn't fit me at all:

-believe in the the Holy Trinity. :
The word trinity is not found in the Bible, nor was it taught by Jesus or his disciples. At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian. Says Cardinal Hosius : "We believe the doctrine of a triune God, because we have received it by tradition, though not mentioned at all in Scripture".?E(Conf. Cathol. Fidei, Chap. XXVI)

- believe that God made the world in 7 days
It is mentioned in the Bible that a thousand years to God is but a day, so, it's logical to not see it as 7 literal days.

- Adam and Eve were made by God and are the first human on earth, who look like us today (by the way, what was their skin colour and language ?)
Genesis says Adams skin was red. perhaps a mixture of all skin colours today? They spoke an original form of Hebrew.

- believe that the Sun goes round the Earth, and the Earth is the center of the universe
Actually, the Bible does not say that the earth is the center of the universe. That was a teaching of church leaders who themselves did not adhere to God's Word.

- believe that God is a man (he is called the "father", not the "mother")
God is a spirit a therefore has no sex, but is manly in character.

- believe in miracles
Jesus, being God's son was given special power to perform miricles, these were examples to us of what he will do in the future.

- believe that Jesus was human and God
Jesus took on a human body, but as I mentioned before, is God's son, not his equal.
...

Quote:"Those who don't believe even one of these things are not real Christians". - as I believe in the teachings of the Bible and not traditions and myths that form the basis of many religions, I see myself as trying to be like the original christians.


Quote: "I find it a bit easy to adapt the Bible and change the doctrine everytime science proves it to be wrong." - In a time when most people believed the earth was flat the Bible proved them wrong : There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers.?E(Isa. 40:22) The Bible was more advanced than science!

 

[jeisan]

Maciamo - believe in the the Holy Trinity.

the holy trinity, or sometimes the holy quartet if you count the virgin mary as she is worshipped just as much as jesus & co. in some denominations, is an oxymoron in a monotheistic belief system. the 1st of gods 10 commandments says very clearly "I am the Lord, your God, you shall not have any other God besides me." so technicly you are breaking that commandment if you worship jesus or the holy spirit. that idea pretty much debunks itself and is another reason why i dont really like christianity, so much hypocracy. youre damned if you do and youre damned if you dont.

nzueda - believe that Jesus was human and God
Jesus took on a human body, but as I mentioned before, is God's son, not his equal.
...

i think maciamo meant "believe that Jesus was a human and a God" thats how i understood it, but i could be wrong. so my question is what exactly is/was jesus?

nzueda - Quote: "I find it a bit easy to adapt the Bible and change the doctrine everytime science proves it to be wrong." - In a time when most people believed the earth was flat the Bible proved them wrong : There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers.?E(Isa. 40:22) The Bible was more advanced than science!

that could easily have been put in the bible at a more recent date. if the powers that be can change the sabbath day why not anything else? sunday is not the 7th day of the week its the 1st, look on your calender. the sabbath was saturday for along time til whatever pope in the middle ages decided that sunday was better for whatever reason and changed it. most christians dont even know that, save the 7th day adventists who still go to church on saturday. my point being not that you (or anyone else for that matter) shouldnt trust god, but that you shouldnt trust humans who have the power to manipulate things. especially in something so old where the changes could have taken place so long ago that know one even knows the difference anymore.

 

[Maciamo]

=> Nzueda

Dear Ueda-san (I guess that's your married name),

What branch of Protestantism do you believe in that does not recognise the trinity ? I am from a catholic background and Catholic must all believe in it. So, what is Jesus ? The son of God ? Does that mean thta God is just an animal (like humans) ? Did Jesus carry godly DNA ? I remind you that "son" or "child" is only a genetical connection between 2 sexual beings (not even monocellular beings, which are also alive though). Did you mean that Jesus was one of God's "creation" ? Of course, if you think God created the universe, then forcedly, Jesus, even 100% human was part of the creation.

As for the creation, even if a thousand years is like a day, just the earth need billions of years to be formed and the solar system even longer. I am not even talking about our galaxy, which is just a infinitesimal part of the "so far known" universe itself. How comes the Bible does inform us about Galaxies if God had really wanted to provide human with useful knowledge ? Was "He" trying to confuse us or conceal information ? Would you trut such a God ?

So the first humans were red and spoke Hebrew ? Interesting... but I think I'd rather believe in fairy tales before that. What about evolution ? Why isn't it even explained in the Bible ? It is suppoed to be the holy book that provide enough information to humans to live in peace in the "kingdom of God" (is he king ? so he is a man after all, and needs power, like if under the influence of testosterone ).

 

[tasuki]

I think the discussion has confused religion and belief.

What is religion? According to the Meriam-Webster religion is:

1
(1a): the service and worship of God or the supernatural
(1b): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

2
A personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices.

3
A cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith.

Which leads me to ask, what is religious? Again according to the Meriam-Webster, religious is:

1
Relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity.

2
Of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances.

What are beliefs, then? In our case, still according to Meriam-Webster:

"Conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence."

The eveidence in question being our own experience, personality, knowledge, etc.

Thus, to me, if it's acknowledged, institutionalized, and has observances, it's religion. If it isn't, it's belief. If you don't observe the practices of your religion, your not religious, you only have faith in the beliefs of your religion.

Everyone's entitled to their own beliefs and I didn't see that anyone on this thread had any better beliefs (religious or not)than anyone else's. I think you can have faith in the beliefs put forth by a religion and simultaneously have your own beliefs (i.e. have faith in the beliefs put forth by Christianity, yet believe in evolution).

I consider myself to be an agnostic. I do not adhere to any institutionalized, religious belief because they all have too many flaws to be credible to me. However, I do believe that the universe (which Einsteinian physics tend to suggest is finite; E=mc2, since the speed of light is finite, the energy contained in the universe must also be finite even if mass is not a constant) is a growing, living being that intentionally fragments its consciousness (that would be the soul of any sentient being at any given time) in a search for "personal" understanding. When we die, our souls rejoin the whole and enrich the universe with experience allowing it to grow until it reaches enlightenment. Our own search for enlightenment reflect the universe's.

I could just as easily have called "the universe" god, goddess, or whatever, but that's not the point. The point is that to me the hows and wherefors of my (and, I think any other belief of this nature) defies any rationale, and that the only way I am going to obtain absolute proof of my beliefs is when I pass beyond the veil. The trick is not to let anyone tell me otherwise because in this matter, belief is a gut thing that requires no proof.

 

[Maciamo]

=> Tasuki

Religion or beliefs ? I think that is not very important to know which one we are talking about here, since both are acceptables. I used the word "religion" because it was clearer in the poll question. But you are right to say that "beliefs" is more appropriate for several alternatives (atheism, deism, agnosticism, and usually animism too).

Thus, to me, if it's acknowledged, institutionalized, and has observances, it's religion. If it isn't, it's belief. If you don't observe the practices of your religion, your not religious, you only have faith in the beliefs of your religion.

I agree again. That why I wrote that there were 2 sorts of Buddhism : religious and non-religious. The original one was not institiutionalised and it is still perfectly acceptable for Theravada Buddhists to seek personnal enlightenment by themselves, like asectics Hindus (saddhus).

If we want to be strict about what's a religion, Shinto isn't a religion either. There are no institutionalised rules, no dogma, no particular moral and no obligation to believe.

It's even possible, by being very tolerant on the definition of religion to consider Atheism as a religion, because its adherents believe in the non existence of any god(s), which is a powerful common feature between them.

But let us not argue any further about definitions.

 

[Gackt's Twin Fan]

I'm a Christian in most ways, and then I'm really not sure what you'd call me. I believe that there is a God, that he made the world, and the first humans Adam and Eve, I also believe in miracles, I've had a few of them. ^.^ I don't believe that Earth is the center of the univers though...Science kind of goes with that one.

 

[Chipi]

I?m also a christian (in this poll the "other form"), but I don?t think that I?m a very good one...I guess I have my own mix of different beliefs, and I make up my "own" religion.. Sometimes I?m not sure do I believe in anything else than pure facts, but then again, I want to believe in something. In my mind it would be ideal, if there would be some "higher forces", and it would be a compilation of all the religions we have and have ever had on earth...I mean everything from ancient gods to viking gods to greek gods, buddha etc. In a way it would just be to big of a hoax, if nothing bigger excisted- people have believed in ?something? for ages.Don?t know.Time will tell...hopefully not too soon


P.S. And in a way I believe at least some parts of the christian religion i.e. the Bible, but _not_ directly. I think it?s just symbolic, and we have to figure it out ourselves what it means...so that way, religion and science go hand in hand.

 

[neko_girl22]

Dear Maciamo ,

I am not Catholic, nor am I protestant. I am a Bible student.

I could discuss this more, but I am not one for heated debates, especially when you don't seem to really want to discuss it.... not being rude but you do seem to have very set ideas and not open to new ones?

E.g, what's so strange about being "red" and speaking Hebrew? The American Indians are called "red indians" - it doesn't mean they are a bright tomato red!

Besides, I think you have to believe in God, in a Creator, before we can discuss the validity of the Bible. If you don't believe in God, of course you'll mock everything I say about the Bible...
I might sound cheesy, but if anyone really wants to know the truth, why not pray for help? Surely God would want to help you with that.

Ueda.
??c?@??????

 

[tasuki]

=> Tasuki

Religion or beliefs ? I think that is not very important to know which one we are talking about here, since both are acceptables. I used the word "religion" because it was clearer in the poll question. But you are right to say that "beliefs" is more appropriate for several alternatives (atheism, deism, agnosticism, and usually animism too).

Yet everybody else seems intent on discussing beliefs rather than religion... Anyway...

If we want to be strict about what's a religion, Shinto isn't a religion either. There are no institutionalised rules, no dogma, no particular moral and no obligation to believe.

Well, it is institutionalized... There may be no rules, but I think there are enough Shinto temples throughout the land to call it a recognized institution...

It's even possible, by being very tolerant on the definition of religion to consider Atheism as a religion, because its adherents believe in the non existence of any god(s), which is a powerful common feature between them.

I agree. But the very concept of "refusing to believe in the existence of god" is in itself a belief, which makes me dubious about atheism. It's a bit like choosing not to make a choice.

But let us not argue any further about definitions.

Suits me. Besides, religions are just a way to control the masses. I have yet to find one positive thing about religions (well, maybe a few of them are OK). But a lot of them have spawned wars, sexual segregation, discrimination, intolerence... I think we should do away with institutionalized religion. Bag the whole thing as a bad idea.

 

[Maciamo]

I agree. But the very concept of "believing that one doesn't believe in god" is in itself a belief, which makes me dubious about atheism. It's a bit like choosing not to make a choice.

That's why it is different to be atheist or just not have any religion or not care about it. Being Atheist is as much a belief system as any others and means that the person is as certain that god(s) do(es)n't exist as religious people can be sure god(s) exist(s). I have clearly made 2 options : atheism and "no religion"

 

[Elizabeth]

That's why it is different to be atheist or just not have any religion or not care about it. Being Atheist is as much a belief system as any others and means that the person is as certain that god(s) do(es)n't exist as religious people can be sure god(s) exist(s). I have clearly made 2 options : atheism and "no religion"

I agree that atheism should not be considered a religion any more than people from all lifestyles and cross-sections of society self-identifying as a group together through their faith in whatever x, y or z particular political/cultural ideology, activist social movement, etc. It's a bit like saying even if all Republicans believed passionately in supply side economics, and could argue with the greatest eloquence that lowering taxes and cutting spending would create a more just society and a rising tide will lift all boats, ergo that could then qualify it as a religion.

To set up some semblance of a bounded discussion, though, I recently came across this definition (or characteristics of) religion in The Encyclopedia of Philosophy in its article on Religion. None of which would seem to fit atheism in the least, and a lot of them not even theism or the mere belief in god/gods, even esp in God as the creator of the world.


"The more markers that are present in a belief system, the more "religious like" it is. Because it allows for broader grey areas in the concept of religion, I prefer this over more simplistic definitions we can find in basic dictionaries. Read the list and see how atheism fares :

Belief in supernatural beings (gods).
A distinction between sacred and profane objects.
Ritual acts focused on sacred objects.
A moral code believed to be sanctioned by the gods.
Characteristically religious feelings (awe, sense of mystery, sense of guilt, adoration), which tend to be aroused in the presence of sacred objects and during the practice of ritual, and which are connected in idea with the gods.
Prayer and other forms of communication with gods.
A world view, or a general picture of the world as a whole and the place of the individual therein. This picture contains some specification of an over-all purpose or point of the world and an indication of how the individual fits into it.
A more or less total organization of one's life based on the world view.
A social group bound together by the above.

"To try and claim that atheism is a religion requires, it should be pretty obvious from the above, a radical ad hoc redefinition in what it is that "being a religion" is supposed to mean, resulting in a radically equivocal use of the new term-- if atheism is a religion, then just what isn't a religion?"

 

[Maciamo]

I am not Catholic, nor am I protestant. I am a Bible student.

Could you explain what this is ? Is it an institutionalised form a Christianity ? In what do bible students believe or not believe compared with catholics, proestants or orthodox ?

I could discuss this more, but I am not one for heated debates, especially when you don't seem to really want to discuss it.... not being rude but you do seem to have very set ideas and not open to new ones?

I am just defending my views, like you.

E.g, what's so strange about being "red" and speaking Hebrew? The American Indians are called "red indians" - it doesn't mean they are a bright tomato red!

I found it funny because anybody could be "red" (except black people maybe). People are red when they are sunburnt, when they blush, when they've done exercice, are very hot or even naturally on the cheeks. Skin colour cannot be definine by simple colours. For fair-skin people it's pink, salmon, yellow, red, white all mix together. That's why I laughed when I spoke of red people. What do you mean exactly ? Then, it's not that I am not open to "new" ideas (at the contrary), but tend to dismiss old ones like those of Christians. There is enough scientific and historic evidence to prove wrong this hypothesis of a single common (red or white or brown) people that would have spoken the same language as the origin of all humans in the world.

Then why Hebrew ? This language has absolutely no connection whatsoever with other non Semitic languages. I also thought that Jesus himself spoke Aramean, not Hebrew.

Besides, I think you have to believe in God, in a Creator, before we can discuss the validity of the Bible. If you don't believe in God, of course you'll mock everything I say about the Bible...
I might sound cheesy, but if anyone really wants to know the truth, why not pray for help? Surely God would want to help you with that.

Actually, that's the usual defence of Christian like you. Why not pray for help ? Isn't it narrow-minded of you to want me to believe like you to start a discussion ? If you still believe in "the truth", as you said, that means you are strictly intolerant of people who don't believe in your truth. I might be cynical, but you won't make me believe that the earth is square or 1+1=5. I use my common sense, knowledge and reasoning faculty to decide what is could be possible and what is nonsense. Some people prefer to live in dreams, imagining an easy world of God and a restricted universe around themselves. I am not like that. I am open to the ideas governed by logic, sciences or philosophy, but not to hardened irrational beliefs. If you can demonstrate the "truth" of your beliefs, I am ready to accept them and change mine. But I know from experience and reason that you can't. You can try and prove me wrong (gambatte). I am always open to discussion as long as the arguments make sense (i.e. are logic, agree with facts and most up-to-date human knowledge today).

 

[Maciamo]

=> Elizabeth

Religion

Definitions are always dangerous because they are subjective and will never satisfy everybody.

My Oxford dictionary says : 1b) particular system of faith and worship

I could say that atheism is a particular system of faith, though there is obviously no worship - but Theravada Buddhist also don't worship, since they have no deities and consider that Buddha was just a man. If Buddhism is a religion (lots of people think of it as a philosophy rather than religion, just to show confusing definitions are), atheism is just the same : a system of faith or beliefs. Actually "faith" is a bit strong for Buddhism (or even Shinto), since its followers are not asked to believe in anything. People are free to practise it if they want, but there is no obligation or rules.

Anyway why is it so important for you to argue about this ? This poll is about religions AND belief systems. (I'll change the title to make this clear)