Why is homo- and bisexuality on the rise in the West?

Bergin said:
Hi Maleth (#37),
I was not talking about choosing/deciding to be a homosexual. I was talking about choosing a partner, and the relative weight of gender in that choice. Don't underestimate how pragmatic we are. I do believe in love and magic romance, hetero or homo, but couples break up mainly because of discomfort. More and more people do need : affection, understanding, compassion, solidarity, belonging and sex - more are starting to care less if its origin is homo, hetero or artificial intelligence.

Again this is just an idea, and might very well be wrong.
I do agree with you that 'Oppressive and hostile environments will create false data out of fear and self defense.'
Click to expand...
Use Reply With Quote button. ;)
 
srdceleva said:
I am a straight man and seek relationships with the opposite sex. However has every desire I've ever had been completely straight? No of course not nobodies has if they are honest. If people knew of every sexual desire I've had I could be arrested. have I ever acted on those desires? No not at all, does this mean I like women any less? No it doesnt it just means I'm an honest and open person and not afraid to admit that I've had all sorts of sexual desires like everyone on this planet. The notion that orientation is set in stone and people were born this or that was is not scientifically supported and even logically makes no sense. We all can have our sexual desires geared in certain directions based on certain past experiences and influences. This doesn't mean people choose to be gay, what it does mean is people weren't born that way.
Click to expand...
In your case, you might be in a group of bisexual people, who can chose a sex to identify with. This actually can make all the sexuality subject a bit muddy to understand. If you extrapolate your feelings on other people you can come to the conclusion that everybody can make similar choices. The problem is that most of us can't. For example, I'm a strictly hetero man. I never played with dolls, though I had access to, and I never cared about women clothes either. Pretty much from onset of puberty I immediately knew I was sexually attracted to women only. Nobody taught me to be attracted to women, nobody taught me how to pump my blood to my penis to get excited when seeing a woman. The reaction was always spontaneous, often surprising (when in wrong moment), uncontrollable and simply automatic. No choise. This could be only explained by my brain being hardwired to recognize feminine beauty as sexual beauty. Also, I never fantasized about touching other a man, being in relationship with a man, kissing a man. I never had smallest erection looking at naked handsome young man. Never. No choice again. Obviously no man sexual beauty compartment in my brain to activate my desire for them.
Now, I can easily understand a gay man, who by design of his brain, have brain architecture in sexuality compartment like a women. In this case he will get sexually excited seeing young handsome man, not a woman. He will have no choice. You see, we all carry male and female brain "schematics" in our genes. Y chromosome makes male brain to be built a bit different than female, and this includes sexual department. Which tells you which sex to be attracted to. Genetic mistakes happen very often and it is conceivable that some people will have mixed female/male mixture of brain architecture. This problem was exacerbated in humans due to arranged marriages in the past. Even intolerance against gays in previous decades. I know few gays that still pretend to be hetero in their relationships. I know few from my high school who never had girlfriends and eventually became priests. I also know couple who finally stopped pretending and divorced to live with boyfriends. I know many of these people from way back, and I doubt that they made a conscious free choice to become gay.

Who would want to make their lives more difficult, go against family, religious preaching, becoming laughing stock of neighborhood, being beaten up by bullies, harder to find mates, and create problems having children, if they had a choice?

Even if epigenetics has something to do with sexuality, it is still genetics, and give no choice to individuals.
 
Tomenable said:
Out of curiosity - what is your WeGene "Rainbow Index"?

I wonder how much of WeGene "Rainbow Index" do males who identify as gays score?:

Anthrogenica (works only for males, apparently female sexuality is 100% non-genetic):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/archive/index.php/t-6843.html





http://i.imgur.com/2GwfK4e.png

2GwfK4e.png
Click to expand...

I don't think it works being that I tested with FTDNA. It would have been interesting to find out. Female sexuality according to the forum says no genes have been identified yet, but be rest assured its not different from the males. Many butch (Masculine) Lesbians act pretty much like boys even pre puberty. Some can be so obvious (fight, play football, in love with fast cars and so on) that I do not understand how on earth can anyone think that the environment can bring this on.
 
Bergin said:
Hi Maleth (#37),
I was not talking about choosing/deciding to be a homosexual. I was talking about choosing a partner, and the relative weight of gender in that choice. Don't underestimate how pragmatic we are. I do believe in love and magic romance, hetero or homo, but couples break up mainly because of discomfort. More and more people do need : affection, understanding, compassion, solidarity, belonging and sex - more are starting to care less if its origin is homo, hetero or artificial intelligence.

Again this is just an idea, and might very well be wrong.
I do agree with you that 'Oppressive and hostile environments will create false data out of fear and self defense.'
Click to expand...

I agree with what you said except for the sex. Again I have every reason to believe that deep down we know our sexual preferences and for most it is quite clear. However sexual frustrations (which can be common) can maybe lead to weird scenarios such as mentioned before as in cases were men are away from their wife or women for a very long time or maybe prisons.....but this will not make a person a homosexual. Do not be fooled or impressed by people who were repressed homosexuals for a number of reason (even in Western world) who finally decided to be themselves at some point in their life. thinking they changed their sexuality. It simply doesn't exist.
 
Tomenable said:
AFAIK, those were anonymous surveys, people didn't have to be afraid about their privacy. So your suggestion that many older people lied when claiming that they are straight, due to being afraid, doesn't make much sense.



It doesn't make sense because they never needed to hide it in anonymous surveys like these.

============
Click to expand...

How are these anonymous surveys carried out? Most surveys are done over the phone (normally with someone happens to be in the same room, or the chances are you have to fill it in online or on paper, with someone being aware of it anyway. Total anonymity is very hard to achieve. I believe the vast majority of surveys are still conducted over land lines which are becoming more and more passe. Survey companies need to start finding more Avant guard methods to get more accurate data.
 
Hi Maleth,

Somehow I am having problems to communicate my idea. I am not saying that people change sexual preferences. I am saying that we are tending to become gender blind, unisex. In strong daylight you can' t distinguish anymore the color of the traffic light, so other mechanisms provide priority. And, again, in extreme darkness and oppressive fog, you simply try not to get off the road.

One last point.
The closest connection I can think to homosexuality is mixed marriages (ethnicity as compared to gender). Don't you really see that all these concepts such as ethnicity, gender, and sexuality are getting grayer and grayer by the day in what is probably one of the major achievements of the actual western society. In another post here, was asked how racist is europe... can you connect the dots?
 
Bergin said:
Hi Maleth,

Somehow I am having problems to communicate my idea. I am not saying that people change sexual preferences. I am saying that we are tending to become gender blind, unisex. In strong daylight you can' t distinguish anymore the color of the traffic light, so other mechanisms provide priority. And, again, in extreme darkness and oppressive fog, you simply try not to get off the road.

One last point.
The closest connection I can think to homosexuality is mixed marriages (ethnicity as compared to gender). Don't you really see that all these concepts such as ethnicity, gender, and sexuality are getting grayer and grayer by the day in what is probably one of the major achievements of the actual western society. In another post here, was asked how racist is europe... can you connect the dots?
Click to expand...

Sorry, I don't get this either. I think sexuality is hard-wired in your brain. You're either sexually aroused by people of your own gender or you're not. If you're not, it doesn't matter how acceptable it is or fashionable or how much you love certain women as friends, as I do my women friends. I don't want to have sex with them, period. It has never once entered my mind, and I've been in "intimate" situations with them, on numerous trips, for example.

When most women watch an erotic scene in a movie, for example, they're not fantasizing caressing the beautiful actress, they're fantasizing being her so they can be with that man. That's what all that teen-age girl hysteria for certain actors is all about. As LeBrok pointed out, men carry around their own barometer. It either gets "activated" or it doesn't, and by puberty you know your sexual orientation by that alone. You might hide it, but you know it. Not to be too gross about it, but there are all sorts of experiments done on women as well as men measuring erotic "response", and it bears this out.

If someone can easily contemplate wanting to have sex with their same gender friends, then that person is probably either gay or bi-sexual, and there's nothing wrong with that.

There's absolutely no correlation to things like racism. It's not impossible that I'd be attracted to a part black man, but I won't ever be attracted to a part black woman.

That's why I think all this concern about Hollywood putting so many gay relationships out there is so unnecessary. Relax guys. Look at the numbers for gays and lesbians combined even today. They're a very decided minority, and they're not going to increase because it's fashionable or whatever. We are who we are in this matter imo.
 
Hi Angela

Just for the sake of philosophy: what would the barometer tell regarding a hermaphrodite? (maybe a transgender ). Actually would be really curious to know about experiments. So for me the main question is: if you are aroused by a transgender, what is your sexual preference?
Now try to put this scenario in a teenager environment... that is my all point I think.

Again, there is neither good or bad in it, but I do see it as a great change and sign of acceptance.



All i am sayi
 
Bergin said:
Hi Angela

Just for the sake of philosophy: what would the barometer tell regarding a hermaphrodite? (maybe a transgender ). Actually would be really curious to know about experiments. So for me the main question is: if you are aroused by a transgender, what is your sexual preference?
Now try to put this scenario in a teenager environment... that is my all point I think.

Again, there is neither good or bad in it, but I do see it as a great change and sign of acceptance.



All i am sayi
Click to expand...

There are the exceptions and there are the rules. One should not perceive the exceptions as rules.
 
Bergin said:
Hi Angela

Just for the sake of philosophy: what would the barometer tell regarding a hermaphrodite? (maybe a transgender ). Actually would be really curious to know about experiments. So for me the main question is: if you are aroused by a transgender, what is your sexual preference?
Now try to put this scenario in a teenager environment... that is my all point I think.

Again, there is neither good or bad in it, but I do see it as a great change and sign of acceptance.



All i am sayi
Click to expand...

I totally agree with you that it is much more acceptable today. I also agree with you that there is more experimentation among young people today. I just don't think it really affects your actual sexual orientation or your future life to any large degree.

From what I recall reading some years ago, most men in these studies are only sexually aroused by pictures or videos of women. The minority of men who were only or also aroused by pictures or videos of male sexual activity, when asked, identified as homosexual or bisexual. I don't think you can fake your physical response when you're hooked up to monitors.

It was different for women. A lot of them were aroused by any sexual activity, although not by just photos of naked men, or women, for that matter. If I'm not mistaken, some researchers took it to mean most women, unlike men, are inherently bi-sexual. If the latter is true then I guess I'm the exception. I don't necessarily agree with that interpretation, however. I think it has to be looked at in context. Perhaps it is the activity, even the relationship between the parties which is arousing, but that doesn't necessarily mean most women don't have a decided preference. I do agree, however, that there are probably more women than men who could be either with a man or a woman. With men, I think it's usually either women or men, with fewer having a more fluid sexuality. That's just my subjective impression from the people I know, of course.

I'm sure google scholar would have these studies, and probably more current ones.
 
Angela said:
I totally agree with you that it is much more acceptable today. I also agree with you that there is more experimentation among young people today. I just don't think it really affects your actual sexual orientation or your future life to any large degree.

From what I recall reading some years ago, most men in these studies are only sexually aroused by pictures or videos of women. The minority of men who were only or also aroused by pictures or videos of male sexual activity, when asked, identified as homosexual or bisexual. I don't think you can fake your physical response when you're hooked up to monitors.

It was different for women. A lot of them were aroused by any sexual activity, although not by just photos of naked men, or women, for that matter. If I'm not mistaken, some researchers took it to mean most women, unlike men, are inherently bi-sexual. If the latter is true then I guess I'm the exception. I don't necessarily agree with that interpretation, however. I think it has to be looked at in context. Perhaps it is the activity, even the relationship between the parties which is arousing, but that doesn't necessarily mean most women don't have a decided preference. I do agree, however, that there are probably more women than men who could be either with a man or a woman. With men, I think it's usually either women or men, with fewer having a more fluid sexuality. That's just my subjective impression from the people I know, of course.

I'm sure google scholar would have these studies, and probably more current ones.
Click to expand...

This study isn't based on hooking people up to machines, but it seems pretty legit. It's interest lies mostly in the fact that people are reporting on actual sexual contact. I'd caution, though, that the "lifetime" numbers are unlikely to be accurate as they probably include a lot of adolescent fumbling around and experimentation.

https://contexts.org/blog/sexual-orientation-versus-behavior-different-for-men-and-women/

I wouldn't take the Kenzey numbers as reliable. From what I remember, he was testing a lot of prison inmates. Of course they would have had more same sex encounters.

Wiki doesn't have much, although it gives some data by country. Even though they seem to be random samples, they're on-line surveys or paper and pen surveys. Still...It seems to me that the number of those who've reported same sex activity rounds out to about 6-7% of the population. The number drops if the researchers specifically include intercourse. "Actual" homosexuality is probably a little lower. Anyway, it seems to be well under 10%, although in certain professions, for example, it's going to be higher.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_sexual_orientation

Gallup: Americans over-estimate the frequency of homosexuality.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/183383/americans-greatly-overestimate-percent-gay-lesbian.aspx

The numbers may be slightly higher than the surveys show, however.
 
Maleth said:
Many butch (Masculine) Lesbians act pretty much like boys even pre puberty. Some can be so obvious (fight, play football, in love with fast cars and so on) that I do not understand how on earth can anyone think that the environment can bring this on.
Click to expand...
Not every masculine woman is a lesbian and not every lesbian is masculine. Also I think that among women bisexuality is more common than homosexuality. And bisexuality is more common among women than among men.
 
LeBrok said:
In your case, you might be in a group of bisexual people, who can chose a sex to identify with. This actually can make all the sexuality subject a bit muddy to understand. If you extrapolate your feelings on other people you can come to the conclusion that everybody can make similar choices. The problem is that most of us can't. For example, I'm a strictly hetero man. I never played with dolls, though I had access to, and I never cared about women clothes either. Pretty much from onset of puberty I immediately knew I was sexually attracted to women only. Nobody taught me to be attracted to women, nobody taught me how to pump my blood to my penis to get excited when seeing a woman. The reaction was always spontaneous, often surprising (when in wrong moment), uncontrollable and simply automatic. No choise. This could be only explained by my brain being hardwired to recognize feminine beauty as sexual beauty. Also, I never fantasized about touching other a man, being in relationship with a man, kissing a man. I never had smallest erection looking at naked handsome young man. Never. No choice again. Obviously no man sexual beauty compartment in my brain to activate my desire for them.
Now, I can easily understand a gay man, who by design of his brain, have brain architecture in sexuality compartment like a women. In this case he will get sexually excited seeing young handsome man, not a woman. He will have no choice. You see, we all carry male and female brain "schematics" in our genes. Y chromosome makes male brain to be built a bit different than female, and this includes sexual department. Which tells you which sex to be attracted to. Genetic mistakes happen very often and it is conceivable that some people will have mixed female/male mixture of brain architecture. This problem was exacerbated in humans due to arranged marriages in the past. Even intolerance against gays in previous decades. I know few gays that still pretend to be hetero in their relationships. I know few from my high school who never had girlfriends and eventually became priests. I also know couple who finally stopped pretending and divorced to live with boyfriends. I know many of these people from way back, and I doubt that they made a conscious free choice to become gay.

Who would want to make their lives more difficult, go against family, religious preaching, becoming laughing stock of neighborhood, being beaten up by bullies, harder to find mates, and create problems having children, if they had a choice?

Even if epigenetics has something to do with sexuality, it is still genetics, and give no choice to individuals.
Click to expand...
I'm not I'm just like any other straight man, I love women and have never even considered changing that but my point is that sexual desire is sexual desire. If we let it control us we can all behave like animals. Dogs will hump objects, humans legs, male dogs, and mate with female dogs. Bonobos our closest relatives are essentially bi sexual. Exclusive homosexuality is almost never found in the animal kingdom and even ancient Greeks and Romans didn't have it. As teenagers pumped up with hormones many weird and strange things can turn you on. You can see a pencil and it reminds u of something sexual and can turn you on. It all depends how you look at things. When someone looks at a hole he can either look at it as an innocent hole or as a sexual object. Everything is in the mind. Just the fact that lesbians have to use male objects to have sex and even sex between men has to resemble sex between men and women by one receiving and one giving we can already see that it's all an immitation of the natural relationship between men and women. This is also exhibited by homosexual couples where one will play the masculine role and one the feminine role. Ive literally seen male gay couples walking around in NY where one dressed like a women and the other behaved like a dominant masculine man. All of this talk about it being hardwired into their brains is nonsense. Many gay men are extremely masculine and not effeminate at all. The same with some lesbian women who are very feminine and not masculine at all. And to the comments about gay men being only attracted to men it's also nonsense George Michael even said he was physically attracted to women and slept with many of them but he didn't feel connections in the relationship also a gay guy I knew at work said the same thing. People are trying to oversimplify something that can't be simplified. What we can say for sure is though is that if you are a 100% normal man with no deformation then your body is literally designed for a women's and the same for 100 percent healthy women being designed for a man's. This is a biological fact and the fact that gay men can sleep with gay women and have 100 % healthy normal children attests to that. I'm speaking about a natural secular design.
 
srdceleva said:
I'm not I'm just like any other straight man, I love women and have never even considered changing that but my point is that sexual desire is sexual desire. If we let it control us we can all behave like animals. Dogs will hump objects, humans legs, male dogs, and mate with female dogs. Bonobos our closest relatives are essentially bi sexual. Exclusive homosexuality is almost never found in the animal kingdom and even ancient Greeks and Romans didn't have it. As teenagers pumped up with hormones many weird and strange things can turn you on. You can see a pencil and it reminds u of something sexual and can turn you on. It all depends how you look at things. When someone looks at a hole he can either look at it as an innocent hole or as a sexual object. Everything is in the mind. Just the fact that lesbians have to use male objects to have sex and even sex between men has to resemble sex between men and women by one receiving and one giving we can already see that it's all an immitation of the natural relationship between men and women. This is also exhibited by homosexual couples where one will play the masculine role and one the feminine role. Ive literally seen male gay couples walking around in NY where one dressed like a women and the other behaved like a dominant masculine man. All of this talk about it being hardwired into their brains is nonsense. Many gay men are extremely masculine and not effeminate at all. The same with some lesbian women who are very feminine and not masculine at all. And to the comments about gay men being only attracted to men it's also nonsense George Michael even said he was physically attracted to women and slept with many of them but he didn't feel connections in the relationship also a gay guy I knew at work said the same thing. People are trying to oversimplify something that can't be simplified. What we can say for sure is though is that if you are a 100% normal man with no deformation then your body is literally designed for a women's and the same for 100 percent healthy women being designed for a man's. This is a biological fact and the fact that gay men can sleep with gay women and have 100 % healthy normal children attests to that. I'm speaking about a natural secular design.
Click to expand...
Again you made a cardinal mistake assuming that all people feel like you do. Your sexual examples of everything making a young man aroused are completely strange to me. I had couple of friends like this, though.
Anyway, did you managed to read some of scientific research I pointed you to?
 
LeBrok said:
Again you made a cardinal mistake assuming that all people feel like you do. Your sexual examples of everything making a young man aroused are completely strange to me. I had couple of friends like this, though.
Anyway, did you managed to read some of scientific research I pointed you to?
Click to expand...
Well I think we all can only judge the world from our own perspective.

I didn't see any studies directly addressed to me but I'll go and look through the thread and read them.
 
srdceleva said:
Well I think we all can only judge the world from our own perspective.
Click to expand...
How come only? We people can communicate rather precisely with each other and by this we can learn experience, knowledge, feelings, point of view of others. I appreciate your perspective and Maleth and incorporated them in understanding other people, understanding human nature. There was a time in my life when I was trying to understand others through only my experiences. A lot of conflicting conclusions and not much progress.

I didn't see any studies directly addressed to me but I'll go and look through the thread and read them.
Click to expand...
Like the ones pointing to feminine architecture of gay brain?
 
LeBrok said:
How come only? We people can communicate rather precisely with each other and by this we can learn experience, knowledge, feelings, point of view of others. I appreciate your perspective and Maleth and incorporated them in understanding other people, understanding human nature. There was a time in my life when I was trying to understand others through only my experiences. A lot of conflicting conclusions and not much progress.

Like the ones pointing to feminine architecture of gay brain?
Click to expand...
Yes of course it's good to hear and consider other peoples perspectives, and I hope I am always open and trying to do that. I just meant that at the end of the day, we can all only come to conclusions by the way we perceive and see things. Even when we try our best to understand other peoples perspectives our conclusions still end up being interpreted to how we perceive things.

Ok I see what you mean I somehow didn't see that post it was separate from the other one you addressed to me. I'll read them tomorrow .
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 32579 times.

Back
Top