Y-DNA of ethnic Poles from Greater Poland (West-Central Poland)

[Tomenable]

For more details, check this 2013 paper (15 page long PDF document):

http://www.amsik.pl/archiwum/3_2013/3_13d.pdf

Table I. (page 2) - Information about the Y-SNPs, the nucleotide polymorphism and amplicon size.

Table II. (pages 3 - 10) - 17 Y-STR haplotypes for the Greater Poland population, haplogroups and frequency.

Table III. (page 11) - Allele frequencies at 17 Y-STRs in the Greater Poland population.

Table IV. (page 12) - Haplotypes and frequencies obtained by using 8 Y-SNPs in the Greater Poland population.

Table V. (page 13) - Frequencies of the alleles and haplotype diversity/discrimination indices by using of 8 Y-SNPs in the Greater Poland population.

Table VI. (page 13) - The repeated Y-STR haplotypes (Ht); the haplotypes obtained by using the markers Y-SNPs and their frequencies in the population of the Greater Poland region.

Table VII. (page 14) - AMOVA pairwise distances based on Ost values between the East and South Croatian, Lithuania, Ukraine, Russian and Polish populations.

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And here is the summary of results (from pages 10 and continuation on page 14):

R1a1-SRY 1532.2 (n = 119; 59%)
K-M9 (n = 38; 19%)
R1b1-M467 (n = 30; 15%)
IJ-P123, P125 (n = 8; 4%, n = 6; 3%)

But the study is from 2013 so these names for markers are probably outdated).

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Can you tell me what is this K-M9 haplogroup, which is present among as many as 19% of Greater Poles ???

The remaining haplogroups also recquire "translation" to modern terms and a breakdown for subclades...

 

[Sile]

For more details, check this 2013 paper (15 page long PDF document):

http://www.amsik.pl/archiwum/3_2013/3_13d.pdf

Table I. (page 2) - Information about the Y-SNPs, the nucleotide polymorphism and amplicon size.

Table II. (pages 3 - 10) - 17 Y-STR haplotypes for the Greater Poland population, haplogroups and frequency.

Table III. (page 11) - Allele frequencies at 17 Y-STRs in the Greater Poland population.

Table IV. (page 12) - Haplotypes and frequencies obtained by using 8 Y-SNPs in the Greater Poland population.

Table V. (page 13) - Frequencies of the alleles and haplotype diversity/discrimination indices by using of 8 Y-SNPs in the Greater Poland population.

Table VI. (page 13) - The repeated Y-STR haplotypes (Ht); the haplotypes obtained by using the markers Y-SNPs and their frequencies in the population of the Greater Poland region.

Table VII. (page 14) - AMOVA pairwise distances based on Ost values between the East and South Croatian, Lithuania, Ukraine, Russian and Polish populations.

============================

And here is the summary of results (the study is from 2013 so these names for markers are probably outdated):

R1a1-SRY 1532.2 (n = 119; 59%)
K-M9 (n = 38; 19%)
R1b1-M467 (n = 30; 14%)
IJ-P123 (n = 8; 4%)
IJ-P125 (n = 6; 3%)

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Can you tell me what is this K-M9 haplogroup, which is present among 19% of Greater Poles ???

K-M9 is approx 50000 old and is split between K1 which is the T and L group or the K2 group.
K2 splits into K2a which is markers X, N and O
and
K2b group which is P

P splits later into M, S, R and Q

basically , they where too lazy to test further into the M9 line .......................to me a useless paper for results

 

[Tomenable]

basically , they where too lazy to test further into the M9 line .......................to me a useless paper for results

But maybe someone is able to guess what were those K-M9 people basing on data provided in Tables I. - VII. ???

 

[Tomenable]

Anyway, this paper found 15% (30 out of 201) R1b in Greater Poland. Plus further 19% K-M9 (some of which can be R1b, AFAIK).

So Eupedia's map for R1b needs to be modified, because it shows only 5% - 10% of R1b in Greater Poland:

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b_World.png

Compare that map above with the location of Greater Poland Voivodeship (from which these 201 samples were collected):

http://s7.postimg.org/815xm8rt5/Greater_Poland_3.png

There is more than 5% - 10% of R1b in this region. According to this paper, at least 15% (30 out of 201), plus maybe K-M9.

Basing on SNPs from this website:

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

It seems that some of this K-M9 may turn out to be for example R1b-U106(xM467), R1b-P312 and R1b-L23(xP312,U106).

 

[Tomenable]

There is generally a huge scarcity of data from Greater Poland. This is the only paper on Y-DNA among Greater Poles that I am aware of, so far. And Greater Poland is an important region as it was the cradle of Polish Kingdom, and two historical capital cities of Poland are located here (Poznań and Gniezno).

Yet for some reason in most studies samples from Poland are not being collected in this region but in other areas (strange).

In this particular study, however, we have a huge sample of 201 men from this crucial region!

 

[Maciamo]

Anyway, this paper found 15% (30 out of 201) R1b in Greater Poland. Plus further 19% K-M9 (some of which can be R1b, AFAIK).

So Eupedia's map for R1b needs to be modified, because it shows only 5% - 10% of R1b in Greater Poland:

Please check your data before you post this kind of thing. The Y-DNA data I gathered for Poland comprises 2740 samples (as mentioned in the Y-DNA tables), divided by region whenever available. Why should I modify the map because the frequencies are contradicted by a minor study of 201 samples, which does not even gives regional variations ?

FYI, there ahas been many papers on Polish Y-DNA : Kayser 2005 (n=913), Pepinski 2006, Wozniak 2007, Rebala 2013 (n=643) and Klosov 2013 (n=825). I also included data from Europe-wide or wider regional studies with Polish samples, such as Rosser 2000, Semino 2000, Tambets 2004 and Battaglia 2008.

Sometimes I feel like people don't take my work seriously enough. Likewise, if the map shows regional variations in percentages within a country it means that I have data supporting such variations. It's not just my imagination ! If a country shows homogeneous frequencies for a haplogroup (which is unlikely in reality), it means that I do not have regional data for that country.

 

[Tomenable]

The Y-DNA data I gathered for Poland comprises 2740 samples

Very few (if any) of these samples are from the region of Greater Poland, as far as I know.

If I am wrong then could you provide approximate regional breakdown for these 2740 ???

 

[Tomenable]

For example Kayser 2005 had 913 samples from Poland, of which 0 (zero) from the region of Greater Poland.

If your database of 2740 includes 913 from Kayser, then it means that it is 34.3% of your entire database.

Yet, this 34.3% of your entire database includes absolutely no samples from Greater Poland Voivodeship.

Let's add that Greater Poland Voivodeship (from which these 201 samples come from) has 3,5 million inhabitants.

 

[Tomenable]

FYI, there ahas been many papers on Polish Y-DNA : Kayser 2005 (n=913), Pepinski 2006, Wozniak 2007, Rebala 2013 (n=643) and Klosov 2013 (n=825). I also included data from Europe-wide or wider regional studies with Polish samples, such as Rosser 2000, Semino 2000, Tambets 2004 and Battaglia 2008.

All of Kayser's 913 samples come from Wroclaw (101), Warsaw (121), Lublin (112), Gdansk (150), Cracow (100), Szczecin (105), Suwalki (82) & Bydgoszcz (142).

So his samples represent Eastern and Southern Poles, and maybe partially Northern Poles (though Gdansk and Bydgoszcz have very mixed populations).

They don't represent Western, Central & South-Eastern Poles (no samples from Greater Poland, Lodz, Swietokrzyskie, Slaskie, Podkarpackie, etc. Voivodeships).

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I will check where did the remaining authors you quoted (Pepinski, Wozniak, Rebala, Klosov, etc.) take their samples from.

But - AFAIK and IIRC - they also did not take their samples from Greater Poland (I would probably remember if they did).

 

[Tomenable]

I don't recall reading about any samples from Poznań, or from Wielkopolska in general.

Apart from these 201 samples from this 2013 study, of course.

All of Kayser's 913 samples come from Wroclaw (101), Warsaw (121), Lublin (112), Gdansk (150), Cracow (100), Szczecin (105), Suwalki (82) & Bydgoszcz (142).

Let's check what is the origin of population in these cities (as I wrote, they are mostly Eastern & Southern Poles):

Compare these locations to the map posted below:

In the map below A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, J, K = areas acquired by Poland after World War 2.

Wroclaw is located in area J
Gdansk is located in area E
Szczecin is located in area G

Warsaw is located in Mazovia
Cracow & Lublin are in Lesser Poland
Suwalki is in Suwalki Region

Bydgoszcz is located in Cuiavian-Pomeranian Voivodeship (part of the historical region of Cuiavia - which is sometimes included as Greater Poland in its broad sense - but not part of modern Greater Poland Voivodeship). Most of modern Lodz Voivodeship can also be counted as part of historical Greater Poland.

Map (green parts of pie charts = ethnic Poles who came from areas which are now parts of Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia, Russia):

===================================

And two more maps:

1) Historical regions within modern borders of Poland:

Historical Greater Poland (Wielkopolska):

Sometimes also violet area to the south-east (Ziemia Sieradzka + Łęczycka + Wieluńska) was counted as part of Wielkopolska, as well as Kujawy:

2) Modern voivodeships (+main cities of each of them):

Modern Voivodeships (Wielkopolskie = the core of historical Greater Poland; Łódzkie = Ziemia Sieradzka + Łęczycka + Wieluńska):

Kujawsko-Pomorskie = historical Kujawy + Ziemia Chełmińska + Ziemia Dobrzyńska (see above):

 

[Tomenable]

I have also not seen (so far) any samples of Y-DNA from Polish Slavic Upper Silesians.

So Wielkopolans and Silesians get largely ignored. I could only see a study on Kashubians.

Upper Silesia = Opolskie + Śląskie. Most of the population is native (from pre-1945 stock).

In the map of 1950 population I posted above "autochthons" = native pre-1939 population.

 

[Tomenable]

Sometimes I feel like people don't take my work seriously enough. Likewise, if the map shows regional variations in percentages within a country it means that I have data supporting such variations. It's not just my imagination ! If a country shows homogeneous frequencies for a haplogroup (which is unlikely in reality), it means that I do not have regional data for that country.

Why do you take it personally ???

Maciamo, I am not blaming you for a mistake in this map (I highly appreciate your maps).

I am blaming researchers of Y-DNA for not researching Y-DNA in Greater Poland.

The reason why you assumed 5% - 10% for Greater Poland is because you had not data for this region, I suppose (because there simply is no sufficient data for it). So I suggest you add these 201 samples to your database, and update your map. But if you already have samples from Greater Poland, could you please share with me what they say? I would be glad if you could share this data with me.

I have been searching for a study with data for Greater Poland for the last several months, but could not find anything.

Just like there is also no study on Y-DNA haplogroups among ethnic Polish minority in Lithuania.

I will check these studies that you listed, but IIRC - no of them had samples from Wielkopolska in large numbers.

 

[Tomenable]

OK, I have checked some of the studies that you listed as your sources for Polish Y-DNA:

Kayser 2005 = 913 of which 0 from Greater Poland
Pepinski 2006 = 718 total / 186 Poles from North-Eastern Poland, 0 from Greater Poland
Wozniak 2007 = 274 (132 from Bydgoszcz, 142 from Kashubia), 0 from Greater Poland
Rebala 2013 = only Kashubia, Kociewie, Kurpie (again no samples from Greater Poland)

So there are absolutely no samples from Greater Poland in these studies.

I have not yet checked the remaining ones that you listed:

Klosov 2013, Rosser 2000, Semino 2000, Tambets 2004, Battaglia 2008

Are there any samples from this region there ??? I really doubt this.

 

[Tomenable]

I started to search for more papers on Polish Y-DNA. I found for example this:

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=267630

http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973(13)00249-4/fulltext

https://www.infona.pl/resource/bwmeta1.element.elsevier-4551ffc8-6f3d-3e77-9672-bb40d3ccaebf

The objective of the research was to provide a comprehensive database of autosomal microsatellite loci included in AmpFlSTR NGM PCR kit for a population of Poland considering possible genetic differentiation of a forensic interest. Fifteen STR markers were analyzed in 2041 unrelated individuals residing in eight geographically different regions [of Poland].

And also:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15749370

Population genetic data for the 15 STRs included in the AmpFlSTR Identifiler kit were obtained from a sample of 168 unrelated individuals of the ethnic group of Polish Tatars residing in the Northeastern Poland. Significant differences revealed in relation to the autochthonous Poles by using R x C test as well as F(ST) and F(IS) estimates suggest that the ethnic group of Polish Tatars is a distinct genetic community.

And also:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16221537

Allele frequencies for 10 STRs included in the AmpFlSTR SGM Plus kit were determined in a population sample of 668 unrelated individuals living in western Poland.

Here from the Lodz Region (which is also under-represented in most studies)!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23760603

The paper is focused on population data for 15 polymorphic STR loci included in the NGM(TM) amplification kit, obtained from a sample of 800 individuals from the Lodz region of Poland.

===========================

And here many more similar papers:

http://150.254.179.40/cgi-bin/exper...&mask=2&F_00=02&V_00=Abreu-G%B3owacka+Monica+

 

[Tomenable]

study of 201 samples, which does not even gives regional variations ?

What are you even talking about ???

It does say from which region are these 201 samples: from Greater Poland Voivodeship.

Which is this region here:

Greater Poland (Polonia Maior) is not like "Greater Germany". It is a historical region which is only part of Poland:

Greater Poland, often known by its Polish name Wielkopolska [vjɛlkɔˈpɔlska] ( listen) (German: Großpolen; Latin: Polonia Maior) is a historical region of west-central Poland. Its chief city is Poznań.

I think you misunderstood the meaning.

 

[Sile]

Why do you take it personally ???

Maciamo, I am not blaming you for a mistake in this map (I highly appreciate your maps).

I am blaming researchers of Y-DNA for not researching Y-DNA in Greater Poland.

The reason why you assumed 5% - 10% for Greater Poland is because you had not data for this region, I suppose (because there simply is no sufficient data for it). So I suggest you add these 201 samples to your database, and update your map. But if you already have samples from Greater Poland, could you please share with me what they say? I would be glad if you could share this data with me.

I have been searching for a study with data for Greater Poland for the last several months, but could not find anything.

Just like there is also no study on Y-DNA haplogroups among ethnic Polish minority in Lithuania.

I will check these studies that you listed, but IIRC - no of them had samples from Wielkopolska in large numbers.

why would research confuse the results by testing for greater Poland, ?
research will test within the current national boundries

why I agree it will be handy, I can only see issues if it was tested and announced as you want it

 

[Tomenable]

Why would research confuse the results by testing for greater Poland, ?
research will test within the current national boundries

LOL. Greater Poland is a region located within the current boundaries of Poland.

Read all posts, not just some of them. Greater Poland is this region (red color):

 

[Tomenable]

Greater Poland = the Oldest part of Poland = Polonia Maior:

Greater Poland formed the heart of the 10th-century early Polish state, sometimes being called the "cradle of Poland". Poznań and Gniezno were early centres of royal power (...) Because Greater Poland was the settlement area of the Polans and the core of the early Polish state, the region was at times simply called "Poland" (Latin Polonia). The more specific name is first recorded in the Latin form Polonia Maior in 1257, and in Polish ("w Wielkej Polszcze") in 1449. Its original meaning was the Older Poland, as opposed to Lesser Poland (Polish Małopolska, Latin Polonia Minor), a region in south-eastern Poland with its capital at Kraków which became the main center of the state later.

Greater Poland comprises much of the area drained by the Warta River and its tributaries, including the Noteć River. The region is distinguished from Lesser Poland with the lowland landscape, and from both Lesser Poland and Mazovia with its numerous lakes. In the strict meaning, Wielkopolska covers an area of about 33,000 square kilometres (13,000 sq mi), and has a population of 3.5 million. In the wider sense, it has almost 60,000 square kilometres (23,000 sq mi), and 7 million inhabitants.

The region's main metropolis is Poznań, near the centre of the region, on the Warta. Other cities are Kalisz to the south-east, Konin to the east, Piła to the north, Ostrów Wielkopolski to the south-east, Gniezno to the north-east, and Leszno to the south-west. In the wider sense, it comprises also another big metropolis of Łódź (along with Zgierz and Pabianice) and lesser of Bydgoszcz, as well as cities of Włocławek, Piotrków Trybunalski, Tomaszów Mazowiecki, Bełchatów, Inowrocław and Sieradz.

 

[Maciamo]

Sorry I wasn't familiar with the term 'Greater Poland'. I thought it referred to a territory at least as big as modern Poland, not one region within it.

 

[Tomenable]

Well, no problem, it can be confusing!

I should have made it clearer in the thread title.

I think the English translation is rather unfortunate (in Polish it is Wielko-Polska which is rather "Great-Poland" or maybe "Large-Poland").

In most other cases "Greater" refers to historically largest territories of various nations, like for example Greater Serbia, Greater Germany, etc.

While in case of Great(er) Poland - Polonia Maior - it is only one province, roughly corresponding to West-Central Poland.

Anyway, I hope this data will be helpful ???