Tabaccus Maximus
Tabaccus Maximus
- Messages
- 169
- Reaction score
- 22
- Points
- 0
- Ethnic group
- Galo-Germanic Atlantic Fringe
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R1b - SRY 2627
- mtDNA haplogroup
- H1a
I am trying to understand the reluctance by some to associate Bell-Beaker people with Indo-Europeans.
So I would like to know given the experience and opions of those on this forum, what 'specific' attributes, from
any discipline, would indicate that the Beaker folk were not Indo-European?
And as a ground rule, don't offer amateur hour 'a lot of Basque people are R1b therefore, blah, blah' [throwup]
So, let me begin with those arguments in favor of a IE origin of the Beaker folk...
1) Beaker burials appear in single-grave and under a tumulus. The desceased appears on his side, usually facing a particular direction, common to early IE's. In his hand is a weapon, which probably had a significance similar to the Saxon Saxe, indicating his transition to manhood and that he was a free man and not a slave. The bow and other rich grave goods seem standard. I would argue that the positioning of the body along a particular axis indicates a particular set of religious beliefs common to 'on the side, crouched, direction positioned people (IE in my opinion) where the alignment to a heavenly body such as Saturn, Jupitar, Mars, etc., was important and so the position of the body will naturally vary among likely IE derived cultures across three and a half continents.
2) The skeletal features are not disagreable with IE, although no one cranial type seems to be standard. One thing seems seems fairly certain though; the Beaker folk were foreign to Western Europe.
3) The very early results of several studies seem to point to R1b and several clades of mtdna H spreading from Iberia with bell-beaker culture. Autosomally, you could also correlate lactose tolerance with the same folks using a map. The hotest area of lactose tolerance on Earth just so happens to overlay, exactly, the places where R1b and H are most common, in Atlantic Europe.
Although the exact location of the secondary products revolution may be difficult to pinpoint exactly, it surely wasn't Atlantic Europe and was more likely the Near East.
4) Not only was cattle herding and dairy production important to Beakers, Barley and Beer appears to be equally important; important enough that it is the single lasting memorial we have of them. The barley and cattle both have their genetic origin in the near East.
5) I find it interesting that a number of linguistic models have put the divergence point of Proto-Italo-Celtic in the realm of, oh I don't know, maybe c. 2900 B.C.? Ok, maybe not that precise, but within a limited range that seems to fall within the time frame of the first Iberian settlements.
Looking at the migration models of Beaker folk from Iberia through Central Europe, the Alps and
the British Islands, it's easy to imagine how Italic diverged and how continental Celitic diverged from Insular celtic. It also probably offers the best explanation for the formation of very early proto-Germanic, where a Beaker superstrate imposed itself on a Corded Ware folk in the Northern contact zone.
6) It's also worth pointing out that Western European languages share some features with the Anatolian and Tocharian languages, both of which, again, probably originate in the Near East.
So I would like to know given the experience and opions of those on this forum, what 'specific' attributes, from
any discipline, would indicate that the Beaker folk were not Indo-European?
And as a ground rule, don't offer amateur hour 'a lot of Basque people are R1b therefore, blah, blah' [throwup]
So, let me begin with those arguments in favor of a IE origin of the Beaker folk...
1) Beaker burials appear in single-grave and under a tumulus. The desceased appears on his side, usually facing a particular direction, common to early IE's. In his hand is a weapon, which probably had a significance similar to the Saxon Saxe, indicating his transition to manhood and that he was a free man and not a slave. The bow and other rich grave goods seem standard. I would argue that the positioning of the body along a particular axis indicates a particular set of religious beliefs common to 'on the side, crouched, direction positioned people (IE in my opinion) where the alignment to a heavenly body such as Saturn, Jupitar, Mars, etc., was important and so the position of the body will naturally vary among likely IE derived cultures across three and a half continents.
2) The skeletal features are not disagreable with IE, although no one cranial type seems to be standard. One thing seems seems fairly certain though; the Beaker folk were foreign to Western Europe.
3) The very early results of several studies seem to point to R1b and several clades of mtdna H spreading from Iberia with bell-beaker culture. Autosomally, you could also correlate lactose tolerance with the same folks using a map. The hotest area of lactose tolerance on Earth just so happens to overlay, exactly, the places where R1b and H are most common, in Atlantic Europe.
Although the exact location of the secondary products revolution may be difficult to pinpoint exactly, it surely wasn't Atlantic Europe and was more likely the Near East.
4) Not only was cattle herding and dairy production important to Beakers, Barley and Beer appears to be equally important; important enough that it is the single lasting memorial we have of them. The barley and cattle both have their genetic origin in the near East.
5) I find it interesting that a number of linguistic models have put the divergence point of Proto-Italo-Celtic in the realm of, oh I don't know, maybe c. 2900 B.C.? Ok, maybe not that precise, but within a limited range that seems to fall within the time frame of the first Iberian settlements.
Looking at the migration models of Beaker folk from Iberia through Central Europe, the Alps and
the British Islands, it's easy to imagine how Italic diverged and how continental Celitic diverged from Insular celtic. It also probably offers the best explanation for the formation of very early proto-Germanic, where a Beaker superstrate imposed itself on a Corded Ware folk in the Northern contact zone.
6) It's also worth pointing out that Western European languages share some features with the Anatolian and Tocharian languages, both of which, again, probably originate in the Near East.