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Tomenable
11-02-16, 17:30
A subclade of I2a1 called I2a1b2a1, defined by SNP CTS10228, shows a very strong correlation with the distribution of Slavic peoples. Moreover, the time of most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) for males carrying this subclade, is estimated by YFull as just 2200 years ago (ybp), shortly before Christ:

http://yfull.com/tree/I-L621/

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html

https://lundiak.wordpress.com/2015/01/09/i2...aka-i-cts10228/ (https://lundiak.wordpress.com/2015/01/09/i2a1b2a1-aka-i-cts10228/)

I'm not sure what percent of entire I2a1 in Europe belongs to I2a1b2a1 - but surely in Slavic and neighbouring countries it is the majority. I guess, that at over a dozen million males carry this subclade (while in total all subclades of I2a1 are carried in Slavic countries by an estimated 20 million males and in neighbouring countries by another close to 6 million). Some of the most basal subclades of CTS10228 as well as CTS4002 were found in Polish people.

This sample (Y-Full number YF03513) is from Świętokrzyskie Voivodeship (SK) in Poland (PL):

I-CTS4002* - id:YF03513 POL [PL-SK]

In FTDNA this kit has identification number N113464, it belongs to a male from Moskorzew:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moskorzew

Another basal sample from Poland is from Subcarpathian (Podkarpackie = PK) Voivodeship:

I-CTS10228* id:YF01476 POL [PL-PK]

================================================== ======

The route from haplogroup I2, via I2a, I2a1 (P37), I2a1b2 (L621) up to this very young but very numerous I2a1b2a1 (CTS10228):

http://s13.postimg.org/ossn8zu7r/I2a1b2a1.png

http://s13.postimg.org/ossn8zu7r/I2a1b2a1.png

Here a map showing the distribution of I2a1b2 (L621):

Vast majority of L621 is also under CTS10228, while men with more basal subclades of L621 are relatively few:
The map posted below is courtesy of user Gravetto-Danubian from Anthrogenica:

http://s16.postimg.org/7ttndgt8l/Hg_I_L_621_spatial_frequency_B.jpg

http://s16.postimg.org/7ttndgt8l/Hg_I_L_621_spatial_frequency_B.jpg

For comparison a map showing all of I2a1 (P37):

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

Here an alternative map of I2a1b, but a very old one (from O. Balanovsky 2008):

At that time I1b was the name for what is today known as I2a1b (M423):

http://i.imgur.com/YIV0TQD.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/YIV0TQD.jpg

In Ukraine about 20.5% - 22% of all males are carriers of I2a1 - probably great majority of them belong to subclade I2a1b2a1:

http://s21.postimg.org/ukyhut6pj/Ukraina_Y_DNA.jpg

http://s21.postimg.org/ukyhut6pj/Ukraina_Y_DNA.jpg

According to Kushnierevich 2013, in the region of Polesia (Belarus-Ukraine borderland), 26% of males (56 out of 217) carry I2a1.

In Russia over 1/10 of men carry I2a1. In Slovakia - ca. 1/6. In Czech Rep. - ca. 1/10. In Slovenia - as many as in Ukraine (over 1/5). In Macedonia - up to 1/4. In Serbia - ca. 1/3. This marker correlates with Slavic people just as strongly as R1a, in some regions even more strongly:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Tomenable
11-02-16, 17:45
According to Y-Full, this subclade formed already 5500 years ago, but existed in very marginal numbers throughout the next 3300 years (ca. 130 generations) - starting a more serious demographical expansion only around 2200 years ago (TMRCA according to Y-Full). I suppose, that between 5500 ybp and 2200 ybp, carriers of this clade lived as a small group of people in the region of Polesia (also known as the Pripet Marshes), which most likely was a kind of refugium for them. Only around year 200 BC they probably started moving out of Polesia, and started to increase in numbers, mixing with neighbouring R1a groups and forming the Proto-Slavic community (who then started their famous expansion several centuries later).

Today frequency of I2a1 is still higher in Polesia (ca. 26%) than in neighbouring regions of Belarus (ca. 17%) or Ukraine (ca. 20%).

singingfalls
11-02-16, 18:17
Here is a current rendering of my genetics that are located in the heart of the geographical area you describe. FTDNA has cts10228 as my terminal clade. YFull S17250+ and Y4882*
Overview: http://www.singingfalls.com/dna.html
and this image specifically: 7619

Please excuse the subjective and personal side of the site. Great great grandfather was from Khrabuzna, Khmelnytskyl, Ukraine.

gyms
11-02-16, 18:22
Finally ,you have access to I2a1b... aDNA.Wow!

LeBrok
12-02-16, 04:41
A subclade of I2a1 called I2a1b2a1,

http://s16.postimg.org/7ttndgt8l/Hg_I_L_621_spatial_frequency_B.jpg



http://i.imgur.com/YIV0TQD.jpg
l (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml)
It doesn't look particularly West Slavis. Either West Slavs come from a different tribe, with very low level of L621 or West Slavs are Slavicized locals.

Tomenable
14-02-16, 20:42
Here is a current rendering of my genetics that are located in the heart of the geographical area you describe. FTDNA has cts10228 as my terminal clade. YFull S17250+ and Y4882*
Overview: http://www.singingfalls.com/dna.html
and this image specifically: 7619

Please excuse the subjective and personal side of the site. Great great grandfather was from Khrabuzna, Khmelnytskyl, Ukraine.

Great and informative website / blog Singingfalls, thank you!


Either West Slavs come from a different tribe, with very low level of L621 or West Slavs are Slavicized locals.

Probably from a different branch / tribe of Slavs, with less I2a.

But all Slavic groups assimilated (Slavicized) some locals as well.

MOESAN
25-02-16, 20:55
I've just a modest theory: Y-I2a1b was present in all Balkans and Carpathians and it bearers for the most were pushed or retrated at first Neolithic people arrival into mountainous regions. In West (Dalmatia, Dinaric Alps, for the most) they lived longer at the mergins of newcomers, staying in little numbers. in East, they were progressively acculturated (when?) and took some profit of the Tripolye Cucuteniculture before being incorporated in the Slavs culture,underrunning a strong demographic development after sedentization of these Slavs. I think they could have worked in the separation of Slavs and Balts. Czechs and Yugoslavs (and Bulgarians) are "less" slavic in origin, spite showing distinct history one from another.

singingfalls
12-05-16, 17:17
FTDNA data base has confirmed my terminal SNP to be I-A7358. Updates here: http://www.singingfalls.com/dna.html#ydna_updates There are three individuals in the database currently with this SNP. It is also listed in the Slovakia-DNA and carpatho-rusyn groups.

Miroslav
02-03-17, 23:17
See my post #137 at "I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians" or #1189 at "How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?" where argued that the age of formation and TMRCA of I-CTS10228 and I-S17250 does not correlate with consideration that it survived since the Chalcolithic only in area of Poland- Belarus-Ukraine, the ethnogenesis of the Slavic people, Slavic expansion in Eastern Europe i.e. migration from Eastern Europe toward Balkan between 550-750 CE.

ngc598
03-03-17, 13:05
I suppose, that between 5500 ybp and 2200 ybp, carriers of this clade lived as a small group of people in the region of Polesia (also known as the Pripet Marshes), which most likely was a kind of refugium for them. Only around year 200 BC they probably started moving out of Polesia, and started to increase in numbers, mixing with neighbouring R1a groups and forming the Proto-Slavic community (who then started their famous expansion several centuries later).

Today frequency of I2a1 is still higher in Polesia (ca. 26%) than in neighbouring regions of Belarus (ca. 17%) or Ukraine (ca. 20%).

The L621 map suggests that the origin was in the Dnepr-Dnestr-Pontos area, from where it spread in all directions. When a part of it came to the Adria as a bareer, this clade accumulated there by means of continued immigration of this tribe. If the map is 'right' STR data should be able to prove a cline of L621 diversity between south-western Ukraine and the west balkan.

It doesn't look particularly West Slavis. Either West Slavs come from a different tribe, with very low level of L621 or West Slavs are Slavicized locals.
West-Slavs are genetically only to a smaller degree real Slavs. Being dominantly of the M458 clade they were slavisized during the expansion in the first millenium AD.

IronSide
03-03-17, 17:01
What do you think caused this lineage to expand so rapidly after 3000 years of insignificance ? I had a theory but was immediately ridiculed for it in some other thread I started, which is Elite dominance, whoever this guy was that most modern I2a1b2a1 descend from, He had a lot of male offspring, and his descendants had a lot of male offspring themselves, they probably practised polygamy for this rapid expansion to become possible, they were not your average simple peasant, he was definitely a king of some sort, someone important, maybe ruling a majority R1a tribe that spoke proto-Slavic, this lineage would have been the forefather for many Slavic dynasties in their future expansions.

LeBrok
03-03-17, 18:06
What do you think caused this lineage to expand so rapidly after 3000 years of insignificance ? I had a theory but was immediately ridiculed for it in some other thread I started, which is Elite dominance, whoever this guy was that most modern I2a1b2a1 descend from, He had a lot of male offspring, and his descendants had a lot of male offspring themselves, they probably practised polygamy for this rapid expansion to become possible, they were not your average simple peasant, he was definitely a king of some sort, someone important, maybe ruling a majority R1a tribe that spoke proto-Slavic, this lineage would have been the forefather for many Slavic dynasties in their future expansions.
This, and keep in mind that Balkans were quite depopulated in Dark Ages, so it was easier for a small group to experience unrestricted and fast growth, when better times presented themselves.

LeBrok
03-03-17, 18:08
The L621 map suggests that the origin was in the Dnepr-Dnestr-Pontos area, from where it spread in all directions. When a part of it came to the Adria as a bareer, this clade accumulated there by means of continued immigration of this tribe. If the map is 'right' STR data should be able to prove a cline of L621 diversity between south-western Ukraine and the west balkan.

West-Slavs are genetically only to a smaller degree real Slavs. Being dominantly of the M458 clade they were slavisized during the expansion in the first millenium AD.Do you have a genetic sample of proto-Slav to be so sure of your conclusion?

ngc598
03-03-17, 20:46
Do you have a genetic sample of proto-Slav to be so sure of your conclusion?

Well, I mislaid my time-travelling machine, so I can't fetch you the proto-slav sample (if such people even ever existed...), but as an educated guess the R1a-makeup of peoples/nations with westslavic languages may suffice.
http://s016.radikal.ru/i334/1507/fb/9df9e79da0fb.png (http://s016.radikal.ru/i334/1507/fb/9df9e79da0fb.png)
In this table you have
...the Poles (Поляки) with 26.2% (= 17.2% L260 and 9.4% M458xL260) of M458 vs. the whole Z280 clade of 26.8%
...the Czech (Чехи) with 22.3% (= 11.7+10.6) of M458 vs. 15.0% Z280
...the Sorbs (Лужичане) with 56.9% (= 33.3+23.6) of M458 vs. 8.3% Z280.
I don't have data for Slovaks, but the Family Tree site lists about the same amount of M458 to CTS1211, not a strong evidence with such biased data, but at least a hint on the direction.

Cosmin Malus Dacus
04-03-17, 09:43
When LeBrok enters a post it's over.

srdceleva
04-03-17, 13:11
The L621 map suggests that the origin was in the Dnepr-Dnestr-Pontos area, from where it spread in all directions. When a part of it came to the Adria as a bareer, this clade accumulated there by means of continued immigration of this tribe. If the map is 'right' STR data should be able to prove a cline of L621 diversity between south-western Ukraine and the west balkan.

West-Slavs are genetically only to a smaller degree real Slavs. Being dominantly of the M458 clade they were slavisized during the expansion in the first millenium AD.

Not sure where you came to that conclusion considering R1a m458 is pretty distinctively more common in Slavic populations and not in non Slavic nations. Auch eine lustige Bemerkung von einem Österreicher . Ihr habt so viele slawische Herkunft, dass manchmal frage ich mich wie ihr nicht eine slawische Sprache spricht. R1a erreicht fast 40 Prozent der Bevölkerung in Steiermark und die Hälfte von Wien haben alle tchechische Nachnamen.

srdceleva
04-03-17, 13:28
Slovakia has pretty high rates of I2a and besides Ukrainians probably has the highest rates from all north slavs. Eastern Slovakia especially. My guess is there were two sort of Slavic groups living next to eachother one going from north western Ukraine into Belarus and another south of it going from west/central Ukraine into east Slovakia and Romania . The former having much higher rates of R1a and the the latter being dominated by I2a

ngc598
04-03-17, 15:45
Not sure where you came to that conclusion considering R1a m458 is pretty distinctively more common in Slavic populations and not in non Slavic nations.
I don't deny that. There is just one thing - language is not the same as genetics. Slavic languages were born about 2000 years ago and there is not much dispute among linguists that it originated in the Balkan region, genetically most likely in the Z280>CTS1211>CTS3402(>Y33) subgroup.
http://oi60.tinypic.com/23m8pd2.jpg
Maybe this image gives you the picture. The 'West-Slavs' (in pink) as an M458 group are genetically distinct from the Balto-Slav group (in green), but Balts are not Slavs, and they are closer to the Slavs than the 'West-Slavs', which means that the latter cannot be Slavs in the strict sense of the word. The age of the slavic language family is about 2000-2500 years, while the separation between the M458 and the whole Z280 branch is about 4700 years take or leave 5-10%. The most convenient explanation is that the 'West-Slavic' M458 branch was slavisized and had not spoken a slavic language initially.


Auch eine lustige Bemerkung von einem Österreicher . Ihr habt so viele slawische Herkunft, dass manchmal frage ich mich wie ihr nicht eine slawische Sprache spricht. R1a erreicht fast 40 Prozent der Bevölkerung in Steiermark und die Hälfte von Wien haben alle tchechische Nachnamen.
Haha, that's just a matter of time! As Austrians have unlearned to make babies and slavic naturalized citizens even that out, there is no doubt that Austria sooner or later will become a balkan province. Sorry to tell you, but the Slovak citizens in Eastern Austria aren't doing the baby job either, so no South-Slovakia in future!

srdceleva
04-03-17, 16:13
I don't deny that. There is just one thing - language is not the same as genetics. Slavic languages were born about 2000 years ago and there is not much dispute among linguists that it originated in the Balkan region, genetically most likely in the Z280>CTS1211>CTS3402(>Y33) subgroup.
http://oi60.tinypic.com/23m8pd2.jpg
Maybe this image gives you the picture. The 'West-Slavs' (in pink) as an M458 group are genetically distinct from the Balto-Slav group (in green), but Balts are not Slavs, and they are closer to the Slavs than the 'West-Slavs', which means that the latter cannot be Slavs in the strict sense of the word. The age of the slavic language family is about 2000-2500 years, while the separation between the M458 and the whole Z280 branch is about 4700 years take or leave 5-10%. The most convenient explanation is that the 'West-Slavic' M458 branch was slavisized and had not spoken a slavic language initially.

[B]
Haha, that's just a matter of time! As Austrians have unlearned to make babies and slavic naturalized citizens even that out, there is no doubt that Austria sooner or later will become a balkan province. Sorry to tell you, but the Slovak citizens in Eastern Austria aren't doing the baby job either, so no South-Slovakia in future!

Your argument makes zero sense. Poland is dominated by M458 and they genetically cluster extremely close to Belarusians, south Russians, and Ukrainians. Slovaks cluster closest to south eastern poles and western ukrainians. Slovaks aren't even completely m458 but share more R1a in common with eastern slavs and Slovenians. Also it's no surprise that Baltic people share common ancestry with slavs as the supposed ancestral group from both linguistic groups was Balto-Slavic and they have had a lot of contact historically from Eastern slavs. If western slavs weren't slavs originally then why does R1a-m458 drop drastically among non Slavic nations?

From seeing your comment you must be Yugoslavian living in Austria, also steirmark having 40 percent R1a is not from recent Slavic immigrants the nations ancestry is heavily Slavic. Keep dreaming about Slavic languages starting in the Balkans.

LeBrok
04-03-17, 18:16
I don't deny that. There is just one thing - language is not the same as genetics. Slavic languages were born about 2000 years ago and there is not much dispute among linguists that it originated in the Balkan region, genetically most likely in the Z280>CTS1211>CTS3402(>Y33) subgroup.

Maybe this image gives you the picture. The 'West-Slavs' (in pink) as an M458 group are genetically distinct from the Balto-Slav group (in green), but Balts are not Slavs, and they are closer to the Slavs than the 'West-Slavs', which means that the latter cannot be Slavs in the strict sense of the word. The age of the slavic language family is about 2000-2500 years, while the separation between the M458 and the whole Z280 branch is about 4700 years take or leave 5-10%. The most convenient explanation is that the 'West-Slavic' M458 branch was slavisized and had not spoken a slavic language initially.


[B]Haha, that's just a matter of time! As Austrians have unlearned to make babies and slavic naturalized citizens even that out, there is no doubt that Austria sooner or later will become a balkan province. Sorry to tell you, but the Slovak citizens in Eastern Austria aren't doing the baby job either, so no South-Slovakia in future!

Your comments are very emotionally charged, and pivot around Balkano-Slavic nationalism. I find you more romantic than realist. I don't think we can have any rational discussion with you.

ngc598
04-03-17, 21:24
From seeing your comment you must be Yugoslavian living in Austria
Again, I'm amused. My only Slavic relation is that I learned a few Russian sentences years ago to communicate with a co-worker. But I'm flattered that I can pass as a Serbian/Yugoslav nationalist. That's a new thing to me!

Maybe you take a second look on the graphic I posted above. I don't agree with the claim 'He speaks a Slavic language, therefore he is a Slav. This is Pan-Slavism. Defining the term 'Slavs' is the task here. Are the people 'suspect' to be Slavs the descendents of the tribes who became known to history in the 6th century AD or not? So you get the following possibilities:
1. Both M458 and the whole Z280 clade are Slavs, Balts included. If you define it this way, I don't have a problem with it, but I guess Balts will see it very differently.
2. M458 are the real Slavs, who are mostly called Venedi in the antique world. Then I have the problem to explain the obvious fact that the CTS1211 people are quite surely also Slavs. So the slavisation has to go from north of the Carpaths towards the east and south. I don't know if this is supported by any archeological data, genetic maps or linguistic models.
3. CTS1211 or a subclade of it are the real Slavs. The first mentioning of the Slavs was after 500 AD, when tribes called Sklabenoi brought some trouble on Justinian's empire, which was at the Black Sea coast of the Balkan. Linguists give an approximate time of the proto-slavic language (defined by not being devided in west-, east or south slavic) from the 5th to 9th century AD, which fits in the time frame of their first 'appearance'. There may be a connection between the activities of the Sarmatians from about the 3rd century BC on, at the northern Pontos coast, and the movement of the tribes, which a few centuries later were to become known as Slavs, and I don't see it as a problem for my understanding if they came more from the west ukrainian coast. I just believe that they came from somewhere between the Dnepr mouth and the lower Danube (roughly - don't make a millimeter work out of this on your map!). The west balkan is NOT the place of Slavic origin, that's known for centuries!
4. There is another possibility though to combine M458 with the south eastern Slavic tribes. If M458 and those CTS1211 subclades merged after the split between Balts and Slavs, this could have been the origin of the Slavic language and the name of the Slavs. I don't have evidence that this happened, but it is not beside the point. Bulgaria has a quite decent number of M458 except for its north-west, this would fit equally well to the historical references, but I have no idea if the time frame of such a possible merging can be met.


Your comments are very emotionally charged, and pivot around Balkano-Slavic nationalism.
Specify!

I find you more romantic than realist.
Was that a compliment? People say I am so boring rationalist...

I don't think we can have any rational discussion with you.
Whatever floats your boat...

Miroslav
04-03-17, 22:56
This, and keep in mind that Balkans were quite depopulated in Dark Ages, so it was easier for a small group to experience unrestricted and fast growth, when better times presented themselves.

Balkan was not depopulated in the Dark Ages as previously, historically, thought - archeological excavations in the territory of Yugoslavia could not and did not confirm any mass migration, actually, exactly the opposite - that there was no mass depopulation (confirmed continuity) and there was no mass migration and expansion, especially not in the 6-8th century when is dated the Slavic migration. The idea of depopulated Balkan or "partially empty house" was the idea of Yugoslavism or Pan-Slavism from the 19th century, it was a romantic idea that the South Slavs were ''pure'' Slavs who settled in an empty ''homeland''. It's a debunked academic dogma.

srdceleva
04-03-17, 23:11
Balkan was not depopulated in the Dark Ages as previously, historically, thought - archeological excavations in the territory of Yugoslavia could not and did not confirm any mass migration, actually, exactly the opposite - that there was no mass depopulation (confirmed continuity) and there was no mass migration and expansion, especially not in the 6-8th century when is dated the Slavic migration. The idea of depopulated Balkan or "partially empty house" was the idea of Yugoslavism or Pan-Slavism from the 19th century, it was a romantic idea that the South Slavs were ''pure'' Slavs who settled in an empty ''homeland''. It's a debunked academic dogma.

When eye witness accounts from ancient Greeks at the time say "grass would not grow because so many slavs had invaded" I find it hard to believe there wasn't a migration of slavs into the area. I don't believe the Balkans was completely depopulated but I do think south slavs are at least partially descended from from Slavic migrations into the area. Weather Yugoslav nationalists agreed with that is irrelevant. If Hitler said the sky was blue he'd still be right regardless whether he was a lunatic or not.

LeBrok
05-03-17, 00:50
When eye witness accounts from ancient Greeks at the time say "grass would not grow because so many slavs had invaded" I find it hard to believe there wasn't a migration of slavs into the area. I don't believe the Balkans was completely depopulated but I do think south slavs are at least partially descended from from Slavic migrations into the area. Weather Yugoslav nationalists agreed with that is irrelevant. If Hitler said the sky was blue he'd still be right regardless whether he was a lunatic or not.
Right, not mentioning that all Roman and Greek historians missed all the Slavic tribes lurking in Balkans, speaking "weird" language, till 5th century BC.

Miroslav
06-03-17, 05:30
When eye witness accounts from ancient Greeks at the time say "grass would not grow because so many slavs had invaded" I find it hard to believe there wasn't a migration of slavs into the area. I don't believe the Balkans was completely depopulated but I do think south slavs are at least partially descended from from Slavic migrations into the area. Weather Yugoslav nationalists agreed with that is irrelevant. If Hitler said the sky was blue he'd still be right regardless whether he was a lunatic or not.

I did not write that there was no Slavic migration into the area. South Slavs are partially descendants of the arriving Slavs - but the frequency of R1a in their nations (average 15-25%) is more than enough for imposition of foreign language and identity to the natives - and in the review I provided (which is an extensive consideration by scholars) it is one of the most probable scenarios. Historial sources can not be literally and uncritically accepted (we can easly find similar quotes which were not true) - yet were by the historians, while it was more than well known, especially from the time of Yugoslavian historiography and archeology, that the empirical evidence and consideration provided by the archeologists did not support the historians' ideological fabrication about a huge mass migration and vastly depopulated Balkans. What I am pointing to is the need for neutrality and scientific approach - there's still lack of evidence and we should not make and jump to any final conclusion or take only one POV based on that.

Milan.M
23-04-17, 13:15
When eye witness accounts from ancient Greeks at the time say "grass would not grow because so many slavs had invaded" I find it hard to believe there wasn't a migration of slavs into the area. I don't believe the Balkans was completely depopulated but I do think south slavs are at least partially descended from from Slavic migrations into the area. Weather Yugoslav nationalists agreed with that is irrelevant. If Hitler said the sky was blue he'd still be right regardless whether he was a lunatic or not.
"Grass would not grown" even much more from Hunic invasions,Gothic and so on. Good to mention that at that time your ancestors were known as Wends and not Sklavenoi(Slavs) from lower Danube,make difference.Still counting the "Slavic" conquest or migration but not connected to you anyway.Hunic invasions were much more devastating than any other invasion. According to ancient sources the Avars slept with wife's and daughters of the Wends,that is west slavs,does that make you Avar,taking this too literate you must be at least partly,considering the Avar domination of central Europe,yet the Hungarians or the Hun's?

Bergin
23-04-17, 16:25
The effects of the slavic and huns are pretty visible in the IBD. http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555#s5 (see Supplementary fig s12)
For Albanians it was an near-extinction event, and most of the actual population derives from the group of survivals that peaks with the slavic wave nearly 1500 ya.

I would expect some trace of it at that time period in all populations that resided previously on the slavic path.
Please guys, don't make it a political discussion.

Tomenable
23-04-17, 17:07
West-Slavs are genetically only to a smaller degree real Slavs. Being dominantly of the M458 clade they were slavisized during the expansion in the first millenium AD.

R1a-M458, I2a-Din and R1a-Z280 most likely were all parts of Proto-Slavs:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33931-Another-view-of-steppe-ancestry-Pagani-et-al/page2?p=506905&viewfull=1#post506905

Fatherland
16-06-17, 21:15
Informative thread and I fully agree!

Trojet
17-06-17, 00:00
A subclade of I2a1 called I2a1b2a1, defined by SNP CTS10228, shows a very strong correlation with the distribution of Slavic peoples. Moreover, the time of most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) for males carrying this subclade, is estimated by YFull as just 2200 years ago (ybp), shortly before Christ:

http://yfull.com/tree/I-L621/

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html

https://lundiak.wordpress.com/2015/01/09/i2...aka-i-cts10228/ (https://lundiak.wordpress.com/2015/01/09/i2a1b2a1-aka-i-cts10228/)

I'm not sure what percent of entire I2a1 in Europe belongs to I2a1b2a1 - but surely in Slavic and neighbouring countries it is the majority. I guess, that at over a dozen million males carry this subclade (while in total all subclades of I2a1 are carried in Slavic countries by an estimated 20 million males and in neighbouring countries by another close to 6 million). Some of the most basal subclades of CTS10228 as well as CTS4002 were found in Polish people.

This sample (Y-Full number YF03513) is from Świętokrzyskie Voivodeship (SK) in Poland (PL):

I-CTS4002* - id:YF03513 POL [PL-SK]

In FTDNA this kit has identification number N113464, it belongs to a male from Moskorzew:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moskorzew

Another basal sample from Poland is from Subcarpathian (Podkarpackie = PK) Voivodeship:

I-CTS10228* id:YF01476 POL [PL-PK]

================================================== ======

The route from haplogroup I2, via I2a, I2a1 (P37), I2a1b2 (L621) up to this very young but very numerous I2a1b2a1 (CTS10228):

http://s13.postimg.org/ossn8zu7r/I2a1b2a1.png

http://s13.postimg.org/ossn8zu7r/I2a1b2a1.png

Here a map showing the distribution of I2a1b2 (L621):

Vast majority of L621 is also under CTS10228, while men with more basal subclades of L621 are relatively few:
The map posted below is courtesy of user Gravetto-Danubian from Anthrogenica:

http://s16.postimg.org/7ttndgt8l/Hg_I_L_621_spatial_frequency_B.jpg

http://s16.postimg.org/7ttndgt8l/Hg_I_L_621_spatial_frequency_B.jpg

For comparison a map showing all of I2a1 (P37):

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

Here an alternative map of I2a1b, but a very old one (from O. Balanovsky 2008):

At that time I1b was the name for what is today known as I2a1b (M423):

http://i.imgur.com/YIV0TQD.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/YIV0TQD.jpg

In Ukraine about 20.5% - 22% of all males are carriers of I2a1 - probably great majority of them belong to subclade I2a1b2a1:

http://s21.postimg.org/ukyhut6pj/Ukraina_Y_DNA.jpg

http://s21.postimg.org/ukyhut6pj/Ukraina_Y_DNA.jpg

According to Kushnierevich 2013, in the region of Polesia (Belarus-Ukraine borderland), 26% of males (56 out of 217) carry I2a1.

In Russia over 1/10 of men carry I2a1. In Slovakia - ca. 1/6. In Czech Rep. - ca. 1/10. In Slovenia - as many as in Ukraine (over 1/5). In Macedonia - up to 1/4. In Serbia - ca. 1/3. This marker correlates with Slavic people just as strongly as R1a, in some regions even more strongly:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Thanks for this! Great information.
In today's age of Next Generation Sequencing and ancient DNA, evidence is surely pointing in this direction.

Yetos
17-06-17, 23:48
Ducchy of Carinthia

the first mention ever of Slavic language and people,

Kingdom of Antes
the other first mention of possible Slavs

among the the Havars Αβαροι


What are talking now?

that Slovenes were not Slavs but Illyrians
or that Antes were not Slavs but Germans,

if old I2a2 Din is not Slavic then it might be Gothic,
since we know that Goths lived in Crimaia and Ukraine

ba97200
13-07-17, 09:34
What do you make of the I-A2512 rare branch of the I-CTS10228 Dinaric haplogroup? So far from ftdna bigY tests it seems that we have a movement to Greece about 2100 years ago and so far all I-A2512 who got tested with BigY have Greek origins plus the Jewish subcluster that was formed about 1000 years later (most likely a backmigration to the area around Poland-Ukraine due to the Crusades)

DuPidh
13-07-17, 11:47
Ducchy of Carinthia

the first mention ever of Slavic language and people,

Kingdom of Antes
the other first mention of possible Slavs

among the the Havars Αβαροι


What are talking now?

that Slovenes were not Slavs but Illyrians
or that Antes were not Slavs but Germans,

if old I2a2 Din is not Slavic then it might be Gothic,
since we know that Goths lived in Crimaia and Ukraine

The Word Sloven means Slav, in Slavic languages. That's what they call themselves Sloven. Present day Slovens are Slav and Illyrians like all south Slavs

DuPidh
13-07-17, 12:03
When eye witness accounts from ancient Greeks at the time say "grass would not grow because so many slavs had invaded" I find it hard to believe there wasn't a migration of slavs into the area. I don't believe the Balkans was completely depopulated but I do think south slavs are at least partially descended from from Slavic migrations into the area. Weather Yugoslav nationalists agreed with that is irrelevant. If Hitler said the sky was blue he'd still be right regardless whether he was a lunatic or not.

Documents of the time show that between 4th and 5th century there was a massive plague in the Balkans. Population of the Balkans was devastated and had not time to recover for one century to stop Slavs coming. Another document of the time paints the waives of coming Slavs with that of locust, so many in numbers that whenever they were going no green was left from their horses and livestock.

Daemon2017
15-07-17, 13:30
By the way, where is the biggest subclades diversity of CTS10228?

singingfalls
15-07-17, 16:22
Go here for the most recent breakdown of I2 genetics. http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

YFULL has a lot detail of I2 origins and you can deduct the admixture from that perhaps. https://yfull.com/tree/I-L621/
(https://yfull.com/tree/I-L621/)

Nik
19-07-17, 09:23
What do you make of the I-A2512 rare branch of the I-CTS10228 Dinaric haplogroup? So far from ftdna bigY tests it seems that we have a movement to Greece about 2100 years ago and so far all I-A2512 who got tested with BigY have Greek origins plus the Jewish subcluster that was formed about 1000 years later (most likely a backmigration to the area around Poland-Ukraine due to the Crusades)
I'd like to know more about this branch too. Interesting.

Kingslav
19-07-17, 09:30
I'd like to know more about this branch too. Interesting.

There no exists Jewish subcluster I-CTS10228, nice try. You can try prove me wrong but your research will lead to dead end.

Nik
19-07-17, 12:39
There no exists Jewish subcluster I-CTS10228, nice try. You can try prove me wrong but your research will lead to dead end.
Who mentioned the Jewish cluster?

Who said I'm trying to prove you wrong?

And who's talking to you anyway?

Kingslav
19-07-17, 13:50
Who mentioned the Jewish cluster?

Who said I'm trying to prove you wrong?

And who's talking to you anyway?


I am clearing any confusion about I2A-DIN, for people who might have interest in discussion.

I must add user ba97200 has an extensive knowledge and track record with a grand total of 1 post on eupedia.com. Lol. And decided to share their very important wisdom about apparent new findings of "Jewish Origins" of Y-DNA haplogroup I-CTS10228 in a convenient time.

Nik
19-07-17, 14:26
I am clearing any confusion about I2A-DIN, for people who might have interest in discussion.

I must add user ba97200 has an extensive knowledge and track record with a grand total of 1 post on eupedia.com. Lol. And decided to share their very important wisdom about apparent new findings of "Jewish Origins" of Y-DNA haplogroup I-CTS10228 in a convenient time.
Yeah, you're doing a great service to this forum. Clearing confusions n stuff about the I2a-Din master race that adapted to the cold weather and spread the tall genes around the Balkans.

Let's just end it here.

DuPidh
19-07-17, 14:38
Yeah, you're doing a great service to this forum. Clearing confusions n stuff about the I2a-Din master race that adapted to the cold weather and spread the tall genes around the Balkans.

Let's just end it here.
Tall genes connected with I2a? Bolloni! Slavic Macedonia or Bulgaria or South Serbia are over 30% I2a. Tall people are hard to find. Only Illyrics mixing with Slavs did produce tallness, which means Slavs did not bring it, but was among the illyrians

Nik
19-07-17, 14:42
Tall genes connected with I2a? Bolloni! Slavic Macedonia or Bulgaria or South Serbia are over 30% I2a. Tall people are hard to find. Only Illyrics mixing with Slavs did produce tallness, which means Slavs did not bring it, but was among the illyrians
Why are you replying to me?

Kingslav
19-07-17, 14:48
Tall genes connected with I2a? Bolloni! Slavic Macedonia or Bulgaria or South Serbia are over 30% I2a. Tall people are hard to find. Only Illyrics mixing with Slavs did produce tallness, which means Slavs did not bring it, but was among the illyrians

Sure lets go there,
Can you give me proofs connected with Illyrians being tallest haplogroup?
A link, reference, research paper, anything? Please show me this.

Kingslav
19-07-17, 15:16
Tall genes connected with I2a? Bolloni! Slavic Macedonia or Bulgaria or South Serbia are over 30% I2a. Tall people are hard to find. Only Illyrics mixing with Slavs did produce tallness, which means Slavs did not bring it, but was among the illyrians

I2A is tallest recorded Haplogroup. Slavic Haplogroup. Read what is title of the thread.

DuPidh
19-07-17, 17:16
Sure lets go there,
Can you give me proofs connected with Illyrians being tallest haplogroup?
A link, reference, research paper, anything? Please show me this.
Proof: Moldova, Romania, Ukraine, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Hungary, South Serbia have above 25% of their male lineages I2a. Tall population is about 10% of I2a proportion. Only in Illyric lands the proportion is overwhelmed. If tallness was connected with I2a haplogroup what about with tall females in Dinaric Alps. Do Slavic females have male Y chromosome? Live with it! Dinaric Alps were inhabited by Gheg type of Illyrian stock who are tall and skinny. Conclusion: Tallness was an illyric trait passed unfortunately to Slavs.

DuPidh
19-07-17, 17:18
Why are you replying to me?

Because you seem to unwillingly support a big lie that Slavs try to sneak in this forum

Nik
19-07-17, 17:54
Because you seem to unwillingly support a big lie that Slavs try to sneak in this forum
Which one is that?

Kingslav
19-07-17, 19:35
Proof: Moldova, Romania, Ukraine, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Hungary, South Serbia have above 25% of their male lineages I2a. Tall population is about 10% of I2a proportion. Only in Illyric lands the proportion is overwhelmed. If tallness was connected with I2a haplogroup what about with tall females in Dinaric Alps. Do Slavic females have male Y chromosome? Live with it! Dinaric Alps were inhabited by Gheg type of Illyrian stock who are tall and skinny. Conclusion: Tallness was an illyric trait passed unfortunately to Slavs.

This is your opinion hahaha. I said give me proof, I want some facts. This not truth what you said about Illyrians, only for you. Serbian women and other South Slavic women tall cause the I2A-DIN genes lives in their autosomal. Just cause they dont have Y-Haplogroup doesnt mean female doesnt inherit autosomal from father...seems like we have some experts online today lmao. In ancient times these women fought along us I2A-DIN brothers they were referred to as "Amazons" female warriors and we fight against Illyrians same as now. Gheg stock I havent stop laughing since I started write this. Tall and lanky I am.

ba97200
22-07-17, 08:44
here's my 2nd post :-) i2aproject blogspot writes:

The I-L621 tree also shows a new branch called I-A14877, part of I-A2512. This new branch contains a man from Greece, as well as a large family from New Mexico, USA. These men are very likely descended from a man named Juan Griego who was born in Greece and who came to New Mexico with the first Spanish expedition in 1598. In fact the entire I-A2512 branch contains only Greek families, the New Mexico families, an old Eastern European Jewish branch (I-A11372), and one puzzling result: an anonymous man from the Chuvash Republic, Russian Federation who was part of a scientific study. The Chuvash man is A7134+ meaning he is distantly related to the New Mexico/Greek I-A14877 branch, and much more distantly related to the Jewish and other Greek branches. There are a few Greek men in our project who belong to I-A2512 and who have not done Big Ys. If these men do Big Ys, I think we will learn about several new branches of I-A2512 and many new SNPs in these branches.

Apparantly there is a number of Askenazi Jews that have been tested with I2A-DIN and they belong to the I-A11372 subgroup. They probably had nothing to do with the Middle East, most likely their ancestors lived in the Byzantine empire but they belonged to a religious-Jewish minority.

You can also check the L621 tree from BigY results in ftdna


I am clearing any confusion about I2A-DIN, for people who might have interest in discussion.

I must add user ba97200 has an extensive knowledge and track record with a grand total of 1 post on eupedia.com. Lol. And decided to share their very important wisdom about apparent new findings of "Jewish Origins" of Y-DNA haplogroup I-CTS10228 in a convenient time.

ba97200
22-07-17, 18:14
check out I-A11372 subcluster at I2 fdna project or i2aproject blog, you'll be surprised... It has more to do with religion rather than ethnicity though i think
There no exists Jewish subcluster I-CTS10228, nice try. You can try prove me wrong but your research will lead to dead end.

Kingslav
22-07-17, 20:41
check out I-A11372 subcluster at I2 fdna project or i2aproject blog, you'll be surprised... It has more to do with religion rather than ethnicity though i think

Only one sample found in the study, Jewish people were in areas with I2A-DIN so rare mixing occured. This does not represent Slavs as a population. Saying this is cheap shot. If you want answers to these questions order dna test and check Ashkenazi %, for me Ashkenazi 0.00%.

ba97200
22-07-17, 22:15
i have no Ashkenazi either in my autosomal ethnicity estimate (it has almost nothing to do with our paternal ancestor since eg in the year 1000 AD our paternal ancestor was only 1 out of 2 billion ancestors - yes there werent 2 billion people by that time some of our ancestors had common ancestors etc) , nevertheless in the Ftdna I2 project there are 7 Jewish bigY tests and a total of 36 Jewish members A2512>A10959> Presumed Y23116. Most likely their ancestors lived in the Byzantine empire and moved to North East Europe about 1000 years ago since A2512 and A10959 have only been tested so far on Greeks.

Anyway i don't belong to the Y23116 branch so it's not my interest. As far as the topic, 3 out of 4 branches of I-CTS10228 are probably good indicators of a movement from NorthEast Europe to the Balkans in the early ADs so it could be an indication of Slavic migration. The 4th branch, A2512 shows an earlier migration to Greece in the last centuries BC.


Only one sample found in the study, Jewish people were in areas with I2A-DIN so rare mixing occured. This does not represent Slavs as a population. Saying this is cheap shot. If you want answers to these questions order dna test and check Ashkenazi %, for me Ashkenazi 0.00%.

ba97200
22-07-17, 22:16
i have no Ashkenazi either in my autosomal ethnicity estimate (it has almost nothing to do with our paternal ancestor since eg in the year 1000 AD our paternal ancestor was only 1 out of 2 billion ancestors - yes there werent 2 billion people by that time some of our ancestors had common ancestors etc) , nevertheless in the Ftdna I2 project there are 7 Jewish bigY tests and a total of 36 Jewish members A2512>A10959> Presumed Y23116. Most likely their ancestors lived in the Byzantine empire and moved to North East Europe about 1000 years ago since A2512 and A10959 have only been tested so far on Greeks.

Anyway i don't belong to the Y23116 branch so it's not my interest. As far as the topic, 3 out of 4 branches of I-CTS10228 are probably good indicators of a movement from NorthEast Europe to the Balkans in the early ADs so it could be an indication of Slavic migration. The 4th branch, A2512 shows an earlier migration to Greece in the last centuries BC.

Dema
14-11-17, 07:50
This is map some Croat guy made:

I2a-CTS10228

https://imghost.io/images/2017/09/22/i2a_ver2.png


R1a + I2a-CTS10228:

https://imghost.io/images/2017/09/22/r1a_i2a_ver2.png

http://www.forum.hr/showpost.php?p=65689225&postcount=182

JajarBingan
22-11-17, 14:51
This is map some Croat guy made:

I2a-CTS10228


http://www.forum.hr/showpost.php?p=65689225&postcount=182

It's absolutely inaccurate, at least for Romania.
I know this since I keep a database of Romanian results from different regions of the country. The results come mostly from academic journals.

Here's how it should be for I2a more or less.

https://i.imgur.com/2EXJ6II.gif

ph2ter
29-11-17, 16:56
It would be very nice that you list those scientific articles.

From "Y-Chromosome Analysis in Individuals Bearing the Basarab Name of the First Dynasty of Wallachian Kings":

Of 38 individuals from Dolj, 5 is I-P37 ->13%
11 from Mehedinti, 1 is P37 ->9%
50 form Cluj, 6 are P37 ->12%
50 from Brasov. 13 are P37->26%

From "Paleo-Balkan and Slavic Contributions to the Genetic Pool of Moldavians: Insights from the Y Chromosome"
Piatra Neamt 41%

These numbers are pretty different from the numbers on your map.

Vlad82
29-11-17, 19:18
Romania-Vrancea 11
28
3
10.71%


Romania-Calarasi, Lalomita, Constanca 11
59
13
22.03%


Romania -Olt, Prahova, Teleorman, Dambovita, Arges 11
35
11
31.43%


Romania - Mehedinti and Dolj 9
46
6
13.04%


Romania-Ploiesti (Prahova) 4
36
11
30.56%


Romania - Constanta 4
31
10
32.26%


Romania: Piatra-Neamt and Buhusi 12
54
22
40.7%


Romania - Brasov 5
50
13
26.00%


Romania- Cluj 5
50
6
12.00%


Romania-Oradea 13
73
17
23.29%


Moldova (South)- Karahasani 12
71
12
16.90%


Moldova (North)- Sofia 12
54
14
25.93%



My statistic for Romania and Moldova

ABC123
30-11-17, 09:36
I2a1b2a1 (I-CTS10228) - a strong marker of alien invasion

ph2ter
30-11-17, 11:25
I made the new maps according to Vlad82 data, but have no rights to post links, images or anything until I reach 10 posts. Sorry...

Ralphie Boy
05-12-17, 04:05
The 4th branch, A2512 shows an earlier migration to Greece in the last centuries BC.

I'm not sure that the TMRCA indicates a migration time, but A2512 seems interesting in that it seems to be almost all Greeks, Jews and a few Latinos. That's what is seen in Family Tree's YDNA I2 haplogroup project. What can account for this?

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=yresults

ph2ter
07-12-17, 11:24
There is also a Chuvash sample of A2512. I think that A2512 had mingled with the Greeks and Jewish proselytes in some of the Greek colonies around Crimea and in the Bosporan Kingdom (Tanais, Chersonus, Phanagoria, Pontic Olbia, Tyras, Panticapaeum). Later, the Jews endend in Poland, the Greeks in Greece (the Latin man in Mexico came from Greece), and the Chuvash people picked up A2512 in its way from northern Caucasus along Volga to Chuvash Republic.

Ralphie Boy
10-12-17, 08:58
After a short look at the FTDNA Haplogroup I2a Project, I am almost certain that I am I-A2512. I will need to expand the markers to confirm it. I took the Y-DNA test a long time ago.

Vlad82
10-12-17, 10:48
After a short look at the FTDNA Haplogroup I2a Project, I am almost certain that I am I-A2512. I will need to expand the markers to confirm it. I took the Y-DNA test a long time ago.

Could you tell us something more about your paternal line, e.g. region of origin?

Ralphie Boy
10-12-17, 23:49
Could you tell us something more about your paternal line, e.g. region of origin?

From the Peloponnese. three out of four of the Greeks in the haplogroup tree who are A2512 are from the Peloponnese.

I took only the 25 marker test, and I perfectly match another A2512 at 25 markers. I need to expand and take another test to confirm what looks like A2512 and even find the A2512 subclade.

So now we have a possibility that a different clade came to Greece from the north earlier than the Slavic invasion period. Until a few days ago I had no idea there was this interesting branch of I2a-Dinaric.

Ralphie Boy
11-12-17, 00:39
three out of four of the Greeks in the haplogroup tree who are A2512 are from the Peloponnese.

Sorry I made a mistake. I meant three out of four A2512 Greeks in the FTDNA Haplogroup I2A Project made it into the haplogroup tree. The fourth one is just A2512 with no subclade. That one didn't make it into the tree. Three are from the Peloponnese.

Here is the tree.

https://tinyurl.com/ycwt77ks

Here again is the project.

https://tinyurl.com/y9lopbjq

Azzurro
12-12-17, 01:25
From the Peloponnese. three out of four of the Greeks in the haplogroup tree who are A2512 are from the Peloponnese.

I took only the 25 marker test, and I perfectly match another A2512 at 25 markers. I need to expand and take another test to confirm what looks like A2512 and even find the A2512 subclade.

So now we have a possibility that a different clade came to Greece from the north earlier than the Slavic invasion period. Until a few days ago I had no idea there was this interesting branch of I2a-Dinaric.

I've been saying this for awhile but I think A2512 that went to Greece was probably originally a Scythian.

Ralphie Boy
12-12-17, 03:35
I've been saying this for awhile but I think A2512 that went to Greece was probably originally a Scythian.

Could it have been someone from the Bastarnae people? They seemed to have originated near or in the I2a homeland. Plus, they are reported to have been involved in Balkan warfare right around the time of the TMRCA of A2512, a hundred or so years BC.

Azzurro
12-12-17, 04:53
Could it have been someone from the Bastarnae people? They seemed to have originated near or in the I2a homeland. Plus, they are reported to have been involved in Balkan warfare right around the time of the TMRCA of A2512, a hundred or so years BC.

It could be but did the Bastarnae end as South as the Peloponnese?

Vlad82
12-12-17, 17:27
From the Peloponnese. three out of four of the Greeks in the haplogroup tree who are A2512 are from the Peloponnese.

I took only the 25 marker test, and I perfectly match another A2512 at 25 markers. I need to expand and take another test to confirm what looks like A2512 and even find the A2512 subclade.

So now we have a possibility that a different clade came to Greece from the north earlier than the Slavic invasion period. Until a few days ago I had no idea there was this interesting branch of I2a-Dinaric.

Thank you for reply Ralphie
Raf has explained distribution of haplogroups in Greece (Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin, page 11). I2a is high in Arcadia (20%) and Northern Peloponnese (25%).
On FTdna for Southern Greece we have following results:
S17250:
1x Z16971 -Kythira
3x PH908 (DYS448=19) Athens, Geraki, Kosmas
Y4460:
1 x Y4460* -Lagkadia
Z17855:
1x Z17855 Corinth

A2512:
2x A2512>A10959 -Arcadia and Sparta
1x A2512>A7134 - Messina
2x S17250- ,Y4460- ,Z17855- need A2512 – Arcadia and Zante

There are two dinaric north Y25 (one probably yours, other unknown location) which very likely belong to A2512. Also, a result on Ysearch, (from Diakopi or Dhiakopion, Greece) has close matches in A2512.
There are 3 more dinaric north results from Southern Greece (2x Peloponnese, 1x Agrinio), for them I cannot give any prediction about deeper subclade. The one from Agrionio is very interesting because have 9 or 10 markers of 111 tested that are slightly out of modal for dinaric.
In my opinion A2512 has started to spread around Mediterranean from Peloponnese. Except one from Thasos, rest of positive on this SNP are from The Peloponnese and islands around it. This branch has been also found in Spain, among Jews and Chuvash people from Russia. Tested A2512+ from Spain have Greek origin, also Jewish people might have paternal line from Greece according to Yfull tree.
A man from Chuvashia has completed a Big Y recently (I think) and he is assigned to A2512>A7134, maybe analysis of his results gives us an approximate time when A2512 in Southern Greece and East Europe split up. At least 3 branches of A2512 are present in Greece with TMRCA 2200 years, so very likely a group of people came there in period between 100. BC and 500 A.D

Ralphie Boy
13-12-17, 03:45
Thank you for reply Ralphie
Raf has explained distribution of haplogroups in Greece (Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin, page 11). I2a is high in Arcadia (20%) and Northern Peloponnese (25%).
On FTdna for Southern Greece we have following results:
S17250:
1x Z16971 -Kythira
3x PH908 (DYS448=19) Athens, Geraki, Kosmas
Y4460:
1 x Y4460* -Lagkadia
Z17855:
1x Z17855 Corinth

A2512:
2x A2512>A10959 -Arcadia and Sparta
1x A2512>A7134 - Messina
2x S17250- ,Y4460- ,Z17855- need A2512 – Arcadia and Zante

There are two dinaric north Y25 (one probably yours, other unknown location) which very likely belong to A2512. Also, a result on Ysearch, (from Diakopi or Dhiakopion, Greece) has close matches in A2512.
There are 3 more dinaric north results from Southern Greece (2x Peloponnese, 1x Agrinio), for them I cannot give any prediction about deeper subclade. The one from Agrionio is very interesting because have 9 or 10 markers of 111 tested that are slightly out of modal for dinaric.
In my opinion A2512 has started to spread around Mediterranean from Peloponnese. Except one from Thasos, rest of positive on this SNP are from The Peloponnese and islands around it. This branch has been also found in Spain, among Jews and Chuvash people from Russia. Tested A2512+ from Spain have Greek origin, also Jewish people might have paternal line from Greece according to Yfull tree.
A man from Chuvashia has completed a Big Y recently (I think) and he is assigned to A2512>A7134, maybe analysis of his results gives us an approximate time when A2512 in Southern Greece and East Europe split up. At least 3 branches of A2512 are present in Greece with TMRCA 2200 years, so very likely a group of people came there in period between 100. BC and 500 A.D

Thanks so much for keeping track of and providing us with I-CTS10228 data for Greeks.

Aspar
03-03-18, 22:52
I don't know why some say that I-CTS10228 has TMRCA of 2200 ybp, when on the YFULL tree, I see something else:
I just checked the YFULL tree and for this particular subclade, the TMRCA is 3800 ybp.
Are there any updates about this subclade?
If so, than there will be big questions about the theory "not native in the Balkans"...

hrvat22
03-03-18, 23:19
I don't know why some say that I-CTS10228 has TMRCA of 2200 ybp, when on the YFULL tree, I see something else:
I just checked the YFULL tree and for this particular subclade, the TMRCA is 3800 ybp.
Are there any updates about this subclade?
If so, than there will be big questions about the theory "not native in the Balkans"...

Prove with something that CTS10228 is native in the Balkans. For now as far I know subclade CTS10228 has a source in White Croatia or today's southeastern Poland and southwestern Ukraine. How will be in the future I do not know

Aspar
04-03-18, 00:37
I am just asking weather someone knows about this change?
And I am not saying that this haplo is native to the Balkans, but there is a chance some subbranches of it to have been in the Balkans before the Slavs came in if TMRCA is true!

hrvat22
04-03-18, 10:13
There are probably some subbranches native in the Balkans, we have to look in Albanian and Italian population. If Slavs arrived to Balkans (7th century) someone had to go towards Albania and Italy. In any case we have to wait. What we know for now is that and possible Balkans subbranches of I-CTS10228 have a source in southeastern Poland and southwestern Ukraine. It is for now.

Ownstyler
05-03-18, 04:17
Most South Slavs of I2a today belong to I-S17250. It has a TMRCA of 1850 YBP. Two things can be observed in relation to it, into I-Y3120, many belong to Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, etc. There is greater diversity in that area, which means that I-S17250 probably formed there, around 2200 years ago. But if you look below, into I-S17250, Poland, Ukraine and Belarus have almost none of it. That means I-S17250 moved out of the Poland-Ukraine region around the time of the TMRCA and then expanded, although the sample is still relatively small. It would be very interesting to get more data from I-S17250 and if more mutations to it can be discovered, then this theory could be tested: if all the newer mutations are in the Balkans, but none or very few are in Poland and Ukraine, then it would be settled that it came to the Balkans with the Slavs. Even as it is now though, there is fairly strong evidence for it.

As for other clades, there are very few Balkan I2a clades other than I-S17250, and even the ones you can find have relatively young TMRCAs. So it seems almost all I2a came in close waves. It is possible some older I2a might have remained since before the Neolithic expansions, but the current data says close to none of it did.

But even if you get new data and find Balkan I2a with higher TMRCA it doesn't necessarily mean it's pre-slavic. The TMRCA would have to be >2000 or 2500 YBP, but it would also have to be rare in the supposed Slavic homeland in Poland and Ukraine, and less diverse than in the Balkans in its older clades. Otherwise, it could well be that many clades from Poland and Ukraine migrated in the 6th century, bringing their TMRCAs with them.

hrvat22
05-03-18, 08:25
Ownstyler (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/54474-Ownstyler)


But if you look below, into I-S17250, Poland, Ukraine and Belarus have almost none of it.

In this area exist I-S17250 subclade, which means that place of origin is probably there.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/polish?iframe=ymap

singingfalls
05-03-18, 17:24
In this area exist I-S17250 subclade, which means that place of origin is probably there.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/polish?iframe=ymap

They need to update the first map. It still designates I-S17250 as I2a2. It should be I2a1b. YFull (http://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/) shows mostly Polish under the I-Y4882. It is a subclade of I-S17250

lyakh
08-03-18, 01:00
S17250 is present in Ukraine, Belarus and Poland, where its frequency is probably lower than among South Slavs. I-Y3120xS17250 is not totally absent among South Slavs, branch Z17855 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z17855/) was found in Montenegro, Bulgaria and Bosnia and Herzegovina.

balkanbro
19-04-18, 04:07
Is it safe to say that S17250 is white croats?

hrvat22
21-04-18, 21:43
Is it safe to say that S17250 is white croats?

Only people in the Balkans whom genetics confirms historical record of migration to Balkans are Croats.

When they establish source of Croatian R1a subclades then we will know exactly.

srdceleva
29-05-19, 00:04
I dont know why there is even much of a debate about slavic ancestry in the balkans. Its clear even from commercial autosomal tests that croatians and bosnians are coming back as literally half slavic if not more for some people when ukrainians and poles are used as proxy for slavic ancestry. Serbs on gedmatch can be modeled as being 50% ukrainian and 50% greek. When people used to speak about genetics and only bring up y haplogroups suddenly back then everyone started claiming south slavs arent genetically slavic. We are now realizing this is b.s. Maybe they arent as slavic as many northern slavs but their slavic ancestry is significant, as mentioned more than half for croatians and bosnians.

hrvat22
29-05-19, 07:29
I dont know why there is even much of a debate about slavic ancestry in the balkans. Its clear even from commercial autosomal tests that croatians and bosnians are coming back as literally half slavic if not more for some people when ukrainians and poles are used as proxy for slavic ancestry. Serbs on gedmatch can be modeled as being 50% ukrainian and 50% greek. When people used to speak about genetics and only bring up y haplogroups suddenly back then everyone started claiming south slavs arent genetically slavic. We are now realizing this is b.s. Maybe they arent as slavic as many northern slavs but their slavic ancestry is significant, as mentioned more than half for croatians and bosnians.

How do you mean half Slavic? Today's Slovenes mostly have pre-Turkish Y genetics, probably with German (Austrian) R1b influence.

Therefore that there was no migration from east Balkan ( Turkish period) to Croatia the main haplotypes of Croatians would have been R1a and I2a ie. genetics that were brought from White Croatia or Carpatians to Balkans.

markod
29-05-19, 08:41
How do you mean half Slavic? Today's Slovenes mostly have pre-Turkish Y genetics, probably with German (Austrian) R1b influence.

Therefore that there was no migration from east Balkan ( Turkish period) to Croatia the main haplotypes of Croatians would have been R1a and I2a ie. genetics that were brought from White Croatia or Carpatians to Balkans.

Non-Slavic ancestry in South Slavs mostly came with females. It won't show up in the Y-DNA.

Dreptul Valah
29-05-19, 08:50
Non-Slavic ancestry in South Slavs mostly came with females. It won't show up in the Y-DNA.


I really don't buy it, lot of I2a was redistributed by the Vlachs into the South-Slav population,with further Paleo-Balkan dilution of the gene poll, a"Re-Slavization", and ,in the same time,further genetic drift,explaining the small amount of R1a.


Read Yugoslav papers,about the gradual disappearance (until 16th-17th c.) of the Vlachs( and Vlach military class) from the Serbian state.

hrvat22
29-05-19, 10:29
I really don't buy it, lot of I2a was redistributed by the Vlachs into the South-Slav population,with further Paleo-Balkan dilution of the gene poll, a"Re-Slavization", and ,in the same time,further genetic drift,explaining the small amount of R1a.


Read Yugoslav papers,about the gradual disappearance (until 16th-17th c.) of the Vlachs( and Vlach military class) from the Serbian state.

I2a exist and in the Vlachs but I2a branches originally coming to Balkans with Croats and other Slavs.
If Slavs are asimilated into Vlachs(Macedonia, Bulgaria, Greece etc) they probably married Balkan women but we first need to see MtDNA as evidence for all Slavic groups in the Balkans.

hrvat22
29-05-19, 10:32
Non-Slavic ancestry in South Slavs mostly came with females. It won't show up in the Y-DNA.

Do you have any MtDNA evidence?

Dreptul Valah
29-05-19, 10:51
I2a exist and in the Vlachs but I2a branches originally coming to Balkans with Croats and other Slavs.
If Slavs are asimilated into Vlachs(Macedonia, Bulgaria, Greece etc) they probably married Balkan women but we first need to see MtDNA as evidence for all Slavic groups in the Balkans.


What if,Slavs/I2a were ultimately*assimilated into the Byzantine army and Constantinople nobility too?


I mean ,Constantinople is in/near the Balkans,maybe it had more I2a in the past,like today's Greece,with the Anatolization taking place with Turks(native Anatolian Greek acolytes).


EDIT

*
I have edited my post,added "ultimately".

hrvat22
29-05-19, 10:58
What if,Slavs/I2a were assimilated into the Byzantine army and Constantinople nobility too?

Possible, but they are still coming from direction of Carpatians to the Balkans. When we find out which younger I2a, R1a subbranches are exist in the Balkans then we will know more.


I mean ,Constantinople is in/near the Balkans,maybe it had more I2a in the past,like today's Greeks,with the Anatolization taking place with Turks(native Anatolian Greeks acolytes).

For now we do not know it yet because we do not have genetic data to prove it, but ultimately everything is possible.

Dreptul Valah
29-05-19, 11:11
, but ultimately everything is possible.
I already edited my post.


EDIT

No,it's not,even if Captain Picard and Einstein said it,but taking "risks"in interesting situations, that is really possible.

markod
29-05-19, 11:48
Do you have any MtDNA evidence?

Mtdna is really bad for tracking intra-European migrations. You need to familiarize yourself with the fundamentals.

hrvat22
29-05-19, 12:13
I already edited my post.


EDIT


No,it's not,even if Captain Picard and Einstein said it,but taking "risks"in interesting situations, that is really possible.

You may have been on a good track because Byzantium needed an alliance or Slav warriors at that time, still the Avars are in Pannonia. If we follow De Administrando Imperio Croatians are invited to fight Avars. But there are some Slavs who attack Byzantine, some Slavs who living in Byzantine etc etc. Maybe genetics or archaeogenetics says more in the future.

hrvat22
29-05-19, 12:16
Mtdna is really bad for tracking intra-European migrations. You need to familiarize yourself with the fundamentals.

How do you know then that Slavs married Balkan women when you make no evidence?

markod
29-05-19, 12:17
How do you know then that Slavs married Balkan women when you make no evidence?

Look at any PCA and tell me why South Slavs generally do not plot with other Slavs.

hrvat22
30-05-19, 15:53
Look at any PCA and tell me why South Slavs generally do not plot with other Slavs.

This is visible and if we follow Y DNA but I was asking you specific Balkans MtDNA which Croatian women have.