I2a1b2a1 (I-CTS10228) - a strong marker of Slavic expansion

From seeing your comment you must be Yugoslavian living in Austria
Again, I'm amused. My only Slavic relation is that I learned a few Russian sentences years ago to communicate with a co-worker. But I'm flattered that I can pass as a Serbian/Yugoslav nationalist. That's a new thing to me!

Maybe you take a second look on the graphic I posted above. I don't agree with the claim 'He speaks a Slavic language, therefore he is a Slav. This is Pan-Slavism. Defining the term 'Slavs' is the task here. Are the people 'suspect' to be Slavs the descendents of the tribes who became known to history in the 6th century AD or not? So you get the following possibilities:
1. Both M458 and the whole Z280 clade are Slavs, Balts included. If you define it this way, I don't have a problem with it, but I guess Balts will see it very differently.
2. M458 are the real Slavs, who are mostly called Venedi in the antique world. Then I have the problem to explain the obvious fact that the CTS1211 people are quite surely also Slavs. So the slavisation has to go from north of the Carpaths towards the east and south. I don't know if this is supported by any archeological data, genetic maps or linguistic models.
3. CTS1211 or a subclade of it are the real Slavs. The first mentioning of the Slavs was after 500 AD, when tribes called Sklabenoi brought some trouble on Justinian's empire, which was at the Black Sea coast of the Balkan. Linguists give an approximate time of the proto-slavic language (defined by not being devided in west-, east or south slavic) from the 5th to 9th century AD, which fits in the time frame of their first 'appearance'. There may be a connection between the activities of the Sarmatians from about the 3rd century BC on, at the northern Pontos coast, and the movement of the tribes, which a few centuries later were to become known as Slavs, and I don't see it as a problem for my understanding if they came more from the west ukrainian coast. I just believe that they came from somewhere between the Dnepr mouth and the lower Danube (roughly - don't make a millimeter work out of this on your map!). The west balkan is NOT the place of Slavic origin, that's known for centuries!
4. There is another possibility though to combine M458 with the south eastern Slavic tribes. If M458 and those CTS1211 subclades merged after the split between Balts and Slavs, this could have been the origin of the Slavic language and the name of the Slavs. I don't have evidence that this happened, but it is not beside the point. Bulgaria has a quite decent number of M458 except for its north-west, this would fit equally well to the historical references, but I have no idea if the time frame of such a possible merging can be met.

LeBrok said:
Your comments are very emotionally charged, and pivot around Balkano-Slavic nationalism.
Specify!
LeBrok said:
I find you more romantic than realist.
Was that a compliment? People say I am so boring rationalist...
LeBrok said:
I don't think we can have any rational discussion with you.
Whatever floats your boat...
 
This, and keep in mind that Balkans were quite depopulated in Dark Ages, so it was easier for a small group to experience unrestricted and fast growth, when better times presented themselves.

Balkan was not depopulated in the Dark Ages as previously, historically, thought - archeological excavations in the territory of Yugoslavia could not and did not confirm any mass migration, actually, exactly the opposite - that there was no mass depopulation (confirmed continuity) and there was no mass migration and expansion, especially not in the 6-8th century when is dated the Slavic migration. The idea of depopulated Balkan or "partially empty house" was the idea of Yugoslavism or Pan-Slavism from the 19th century, it was a romantic idea that the South Slavs were ''pure'' Slavs who settled in an empty ''homeland''. It's a debunked academic dogma.
 
Balkan was not depopulated in the Dark Ages as previously, historically, thought - archeological excavations in the territory of Yugoslavia could not and did not confirm any mass migration, actually, exactly the opposite - that there was no mass depopulation (confirmed continuity) and there was no mass migration and expansion, especially not in the 6-8th century when is dated the Slavic migration. The idea of depopulated Balkan or "partially empty house" was the idea of Yugoslavism or Pan-Slavism from the 19th century, it was a romantic idea that the South Slavs were ''pure'' Slavs who settled in an empty ''homeland''. It's a debunked academic dogma.

When eye witness accounts from ancient Greeks at the time say "grass would not grow because so many slavs had invaded" I find it hard to believe there wasn't a migration of slavs into the area. I don't believe the Balkans was completely depopulated but I do think south slavs are at least partially descended from from Slavic migrations into the area. Weather Yugoslav nationalists agreed with that is irrelevant. If Hitler said the sky was blue he'd still be right regardless whether he was a lunatic or not.
 
When eye witness accounts from ancient Greeks at the time say "grass would not grow because so many slavs had invaded" I find it hard to believe there wasn't a migration of slavs into the area. I don't believe the Balkans was completely depopulated but I do think south slavs are at least partially descended from from Slavic migrations into the area. Weather Yugoslav nationalists agreed with that is irrelevant. If Hitler said the sky was blue he'd still be right regardless whether he was a lunatic or not.
Right, not mentioning that all Roman and Greek historians missed all the Slavic tribes lurking in Balkans, speaking "weird" language, till 5th century BC.
 
When eye witness accounts from ancient Greeks at the time say "grass would not grow because so many slavs had invaded" I find it hard to believe there wasn't a migration of slavs into the area. I don't believe the Balkans was completely depopulated but I do think south slavs are at least partially descended from from Slavic migrations into the area. Weather Yugoslav nationalists agreed with that is irrelevant. If Hitler said the sky was blue he'd still be right regardless whether he was a lunatic or not.

I did not write that there was no Slavic migration into the area. South Slavs are partially descendants of the arriving Slavs - but the frequency of R1a in their nations (average 15-25%) is more than enough for imposition of foreign language and identity to the natives - and in the review I provided (which is an extensive consideration by scholars) it is one of the most probable scenarios. Historial sources can not be literally and uncritically accepted (we can easly find similar quotes which were not true) - yet were by the historians, while it was more than well known, especially from the time of Yugoslavian historiography and archeology, that the empirical evidence and consideration provided by the archeologists did not support the historians' ideological fabrication about a huge mass migration and vastly depopulated Balkans. What I am pointing to is the need for neutrality and scientific approach - there's still lack of evidence and we should not make and jump to any final conclusion or take only one POV based on that.
 
When eye witness accounts from ancient Greeks at the time say "grass would not grow because so many slavs had invaded" I find it hard to believe there wasn't a migration of slavs into the area. I don't believe the Balkans was completely depopulated but I do think south slavs are at least partially descended from from Slavic migrations into the area. Weather Yugoslav nationalists agreed with that is irrelevant. If Hitler said the sky was blue he'd still be right regardless whether he was a lunatic or not.
"Grass would not grown" even much more from Hunic invasions,Gothic and so on. Good to mention that at that time your ancestors were known as Wends and not Sklavenoi(Slavs) from lower Danube,make difference.Still counting the "Slavic" conquest or migration but not connected to you anyway.Hunic invasions were much more devastating than any other invasion. According to ancient sources the Avars slept with wife's and daughters of the Wends,that is west slavs,does that make you Avar,taking this too literate you must be at least partly,considering the Avar domination of central Europe,yet the Hungarians or the Hun's?
 
The effects of the slavic and huns are pretty visible in the IBD. http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555#s5 (see Supplementary fig s12)
For Albanians it was an near-extinction event, and most of the actual population derives from the group of survivals that peaks with the slavic wave nearly 1500 ya.

I would expect some trace of it at that time period in all populations that resided previously on the slavic path.
Please guys, don't make it a political discussion.
 
Informative thread and I fully agree!
 
A subclade of I2a1 called I2a1b2a1, defined by SNP CTS10228, shows a very strong correlation with the distribution of Slavic peoples. Moreover, the time of most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) for males carrying this subclade, is estimated by YFull as just 2200 years ago (ybp), shortly before Christ:

http://yfull.com/tree/I-L621/

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html

https://lundiak.wordpress.com/2015/01/09/i2...aka-i-cts10228/

I'm not sure what percent of entire I2a1 in Europe belongs to I2a1b2a1 - but surely in Slavic and neighbouring countries it is the majority. I guess, that at over a dozen million males carry this subclade (while in total all subclades of I2a1 are carried in Slavic countries by an estimated 20 million males and in neighbouring countries by another close to 6 million). Some of the most basal subclades of CTS10228 as well as CTS4002 were found in Polish people.

This sample (Y-Full number YF03513) is from Świętokrzyskie Voivodeship (SK) in Poland (PL):

I-CTS4002* - id:YF03513 POL [PL-SK]

In FTDNA this kit has identification number N113464, it belongs to a male from Moskorzew:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moskorzew

Another basal sample from Poland is from Subcarpathian (Podkarpackie = PK) Voivodeship:

I-CTS10228* id:YF01476 POL [PL-PK]

========================================================

The route from haplogroup I2, via I2a, I2a1 (P37), I2a1b2 (L621) up to this very young but very numerous I2a1b2a1 (CTS10228):

http://s13.postimg.org/ossn8zu7r/I2a1b2a1.png

I2a1b2a1.png


Here a map showing the distribution of I2a1b2 (L621):

Vast majority of L621 is also under CTS10228, while men with more basal subclades of L621 are relatively few:
The map posted below is courtesy of user Gravetto-Danubian from Anthrogenica:

http://s16.postimg.org/7ttndgt8l/Hg_I_L_621_spatial_frequency_B.jpg

Hg_I_L_621_spatial_frequency_B.jpg


For comparison a map showing all of I2a1 (P37):

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

Haplogroup_I2a.gif


Here an alternative map of I2a1b, but a very old one (from O. Balanovsky 2008):

At that time I1b was the name for what is today known as I2a1b (M423):

http://i.imgur.com/YIV0TQD.jpg


YIV0TQD.jpg


In Ukraine about 20.5% - 22% of all males are carriers of I2a1 - probably great majority of them belong to subclade I2a1b2a1:

http://s21.postimg.org/ukyhut6pj/Ukraina_Y_DNA.jpg

Ukraina_Y_DNA.jpg


According to Kushnierevich 2013, in the region of Polesia (Belarus-Ukraine borderland), 26% of males (56 out of 217) carry I2a1.

In Russia over 1/10 of men carry I2a1. In Slovakia - ca. 1/6. In Czech Rep. - ca. 1/10. In Slovenia - as many as in Ukraine (over 1/5). In Macedonia - up to 1/4. In Serbia - ca. 1/3. This marker correlates with Slavic people just as strongly as R1a, in some regions even more strongly:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Thanks for this! Great information.
In today's age of Next Generation Sequencing and ancient DNA, evidence is surely pointing in this direction.
 
Ducchy of Carinthia

the first mention ever of Slavic language and people,

Kingdom of Antes
the other first mention of possible Slavs

among the the Havars Αβαροι


What are talking now?

that Slovenes were not Slavs but Illyrians
or that Antes were not Slavs but Germans,

if old I2a2 Din is not Slavic then it might be Gothic,
since we know that Goths lived in Crimaia and Ukraine
 
What do you make of the I-A2512 rare branch of the I-CTS10228 Dinaric haplogroup? So far from ftdna bigY tests it seems that we have a movement to Greece about 2100 years ago and so far all I-A2512 who got tested with BigY have Greek origins plus the Jewish subcluster that was formed about 1000 years later (most likely a backmigration to the area around Poland-Ukraine due to the Crusades)
 
Ducchy of Carinthia

the first mention ever of Slavic language and people,

Kingdom of Antes
the other first mention of possible Slavs

among the the Havars Αβαροι


What are talking now?

that Slovenes were not Slavs but Illyrians
or that Antes were not Slavs but Germans,

if old I2a2 Din is not Slavic then it might be Gothic,
since we know that Goths lived in Crimaia and Ukraine

The Word Sloven means Slav, in Slavic languages. That's what they call themselves Sloven. Present day Slovens are Slav and Illyrians like all south Slavs
 
When eye witness accounts from ancient Greeks at the time say "grass would not grow because so many slavs had invaded" I find it hard to believe there wasn't a migration of slavs into the area. I don't believe the Balkans was completely depopulated but I do think south slavs are at least partially descended from from Slavic migrations into the area. Weather Yugoslav nationalists agreed with that is irrelevant. If Hitler said the sky was blue he'd still be right regardless whether he was a lunatic or not.

Documents of the time show that between 4th and 5th century there was a massive plague in the Balkans. Population of the Balkans was devastated and had not time to recover for one century to stop Slavs coming. Another document of the time paints the waives of coming Slavs with that of locust, so many in numbers that whenever they were going no green was left from their horses and livestock.
 
By the way, where is the biggest subclades diversity of CTS10228?
 
What do you make of the I-A2512 rare branch of the I-CTS10228 Dinaric haplogroup? So far from ftdna bigY tests it seems that we have a movement to Greece about 2100 years ago and so far all I-A2512 who got tested with BigY have Greek origins plus the Jewish subcluster that was formed about 1000 years later (most likely a backmigration to the area around Poland-Ukraine due to the Crusades)
I'd like to know more about this branch too. Interesting.
 
I'd like to know more about this branch too. Interesting.

There no exists Jewish subcluster I-CTS10228, nice try. You can try prove me wrong but your research will lead to dead end.
 
There no exists Jewish subcluster I-CTS10228, nice try. You can try prove me wrong but your research will lead to dead end.
Who mentioned the Jewish cluster?

Who said I'm trying to prove you wrong?

And who's talking to you anyway?
 
Who mentioned the Jewish cluster?

Who said I'm trying to prove you wrong?

And who's talking to you anyway?


I am clearing any confusion about I2A-DIN, for people who might have interest in discussion.

I must add user ba97200 has an extensive knowledge and track record with a grand total of 1 post on eupedia.com. Lol. And decided to share their very important wisdom about apparent new findings of "Jewish Origins" of Y-DNA haplogroup I-CTS10228 in a convenient time.
 

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