Again, I'm amused. My only Slavic relation is that I learned a few Russian sentences years ago to communicate with a co-worker. But I'm flattered that I can pass as a Serbian/Yugoslav nationalist. That's a new thing to me!From seeing your comment you must be Yugoslavian living in Austria
Maybe you take a second look on the graphic I posted above. I don't agree with the claim 'He speaks a Slavic language, therefore he is a Slav. This is Pan-Slavism. Defining the term 'Slavs' is the task here. Are the people 'suspect' to be Slavs the descendents of the tribes who became known to history in the 6th century AD or not? So you get the following possibilities:
1. Both M458 and the whole Z280 clade are Slavs, Balts included. If you define it this way, I don't have a problem with it, but I guess Balts will see it very differently.
2. M458 are the real Slavs, who are mostly called Venedi in the antique world. Then I have the problem to explain the obvious fact that the CTS1211 people are quite surely also Slavs. So the slavisation has to go from north of the Carpaths towards the east and south. I don't know if this is supported by any archeological data, genetic maps or linguistic models.
3. CTS1211 or a subclade of it are the real Slavs. The first mentioning of the Slavs was after 500 AD, when tribes called Sklabenoi brought some trouble on Justinian's empire, which was at the Black Sea coast of the Balkan. Linguists give an approximate time of the proto-slavic language (defined by not being devided in west-, east or south slavic) from the 5th to 9th century AD, which fits in the time frame of their first 'appearance'. There may be a connection between the activities of the Sarmatians from about the 3rd century BC on, at the northern Pontos coast, and the movement of the tribes, which a few centuries later were to become known as Slavs, and I don't see it as a problem for my understanding if they came more from the west ukrainian coast. I just believe that they came from somewhere between the Dnepr mouth and the lower Danube (roughly - don't make a millimeter work out of this on your map!). The west balkan is NOT the place of Slavic origin, that's known for centuries!
4. There is another possibility though to combine M458 with the south eastern Slavic tribes. If M458 and those CTS1211 subclades merged after the split between Balts and Slavs, this could have been the origin of the Slavic language and the name of the Slavs. I don't have evidence that this happened, but it is not beside the point. Bulgaria has a quite decent number of M458 except for its north-west, this would fit equally well to the historical references, but I have no idea if the time frame of such a possible merging can be met.
Specify!LeBrok said:Your comments are very emotionally charged, and pivot around Balkano-Slavic nationalism.
Was that a compliment? People say I am so boring rationalist...LeBrok said:I find you more romantic than realist.
Whatever floats your boat...LeBrok said:I don't think we can have any rational discussion with you.