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kingjohn
05-07-19, 12:04
this is for you granny :)

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/687384v1 (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/687384v1)


a small map of proto -bulgarians homeland and there migration

https://i.imgur.com/f19urqD.png


https://i.imgur.com/xK6ylhV.png

Wonomyro
06-07-19, 00:04
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/687384v1 (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/687384v1)


The conclusions are very strange.

td120
06-07-19, 00:38
Feel free to share your concerns when you have the time.

kingjohn
06-07-19, 01:33
maybe the Bulgars were a Turkic tribe and not Iranian related like sarmatians who lived in the pontic steppe , if modern bulgarians have no siberian and turkic admixture which they lack autosomally 🤔
So maybe the Bulgarian invaders were elite who were few in numbers and the 7 slavic tribes who lived in Bulgaria posed there language on them ...🤔

Wonomyro
06-07-19, 01:38
Feel free to share your concerns when you have the time.

This sentence:


However, contemporary Bulgarians have received their Minoan component mostly through population exchange with Byzantium and their Bronze age Thracian component trough admixture/population exchange with early medieval Slavs and Croats. The signal that distinguished contemporary Bulgarians from the other Balkan nations is the unique signature of SM-Alan people, who appear amongst the direct precursors of contemporary Bulgarians.

Is it possible that contemporary Bulgarians owe their Thracian component to medieval "Slavs and Croats". Slavs arrived at about the same time as Bulgarians.

(Btw. Croats ARE Slavs but ok).

Wonomyro
06-07-19, 01:42
maybe the Bulgars were a Turkic tribe and not Iranian related like sarmatians who lived in the pontic steppe , if modern bulgarians have no siberian and turkic admixture which they lack autosomally 🤔
So maybe the Bulgarian invaders were elite who were few in numbers and the 7 slavic tribes who lived in Bulgaria posed there language on them ...🤔


That's what we all believed, I think.

Yetos
06-07-19, 02:32
maybe the Bulgars were a Turkic tribe and not Iranian related like sarmatians who lived in the pontic steppe , if modern bulgarians have no siberian and turkic admixture which they lack autosomally ������
So maybe the Bulgarian invaders were elite who were few in numbers and the 7 slavic tribes who lived in Bulgaria posed there language on them ...������

I too share this knoledge
Balgurs (5 clans) were a kind of Central Asian pop, possibly Turkic,
they came same tiime with Severi Slavs from today Ukraine
Severi took the inland road to Veliko Tyrnovo
Balgurs took the coastal wave to Russe
Maybe I am wrong

Wonomyro
06-07-19, 03:39
It is very likely that the Bronze-age Thracian samples used in this study are not good representatives of the paleobalkan population of Bulgaria before the great migrations. Something is missing here. The steppe component that made Bulgarians distinct is probably not from Bulgars but from some earlier migration.

Ownstyler
06-07-19, 10:18
Don't take this study too seriously. There are no new samples and most populations it deals with are only represented by unjustified proxies (for example, they use modern Croatians to represent Medieval Slavs). Most importantly, their only method of comparison is PCA, which is very unreliable with limited data.

voloh
06-07-19, 14:39
It is very likely that the Bronze-age Thracian samples used in this study are not good representatives of the paleobalkan population of Bulgaria before the great migrations. Something is missing here. The steppe component that made Bulgarians distinct is probably not from Bulgars but from some earlier migration.

Could SZ1 be a pre-Slavic Bulgarian? it's between the Thracian sample and Scythians
it's JX1962641 on gedmatch


more ancient samples from the Balkans and Hungary.

https://i.imgur.com/PPOfsU4.png

ancient samples from all of Europe.

https://i.imgur.com/QYl4jjM.png

bigsnake49
06-07-19, 17:39
First there are not many ancient Thracian samples. At least not enough to make definitive conclusions. Now this is total speculation on my part but I think that current Bulgarians are a mix of local Balkanites and Bulgars. There is probably bigger Bulgar influence the more North you go. Also remember that associated with each invading party there were hangers-on of indeterminate ancestry.

torzio
06-07-19, 20:53
First there are not many ancient Thracian samples. At least not enough to make definitive conclusions. Now this is total speculation on my part but I think that current Bulgarians are a mix of local Balkanites and Bulgars. There is probably bigger Bulgar influence the more North you go. Also remember that associated with each invading party there were hangers-on of indeterminate ancestry.

you need to check the huge study on

https://i.postimg.cc/tTzBKnJM/t1a-malek.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

just google Malak Presvalets Dna .....there are many articles ...............all ancient sample

Aspar
06-07-19, 21:55
I think there are many wrong conclusions made out in this paper...

First of all, at first I was happy and thought there will be some new ancient and medieval Balkan samples but there were none and all what those Bulgarian scientists did were making conclusions based on PCA!!!

The biggest joke is when I read that the the Tracian element comes from the Croats...

I think the BA Thracian sample they used to make such a conclusion is the one with R-Z93 subclade: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/38106-Bronze-Age-Bulgaria
On the PCA this sample might plot close to Croats but when you look more in depth in the admixture components, you will see that this sample is very different from Croats, no wonders tho, it's a BA sample with Yamnaya ancestry.

Also, saying that the Bulgarians can be modeled also as EEF and Caucasian-ANE mix instead of WHG-EEF-ANE, which comes from the Pontic steppe and owning that mix to the proto-Bulgars makes little sense as that would mean that the proto-Bulgars mixed with fully preserved EEF to form the modern Bulgarian nation!

Although there is a clear bias and desire to make a more significant connection with the proto-Bulgars, that wouldn't be the case IMHO!
The modern Bulgarians are clearly ancient Balkan and medieval Slavic mix more than anything with a small West Asian or Caucasian input which might come from the proto-Bulgars or might not, probably not since this West Asian or Caucasian input is visible in all modern Balkan nations!

And BA Bulgaria is hardly the best sample to use if trying to model the modern Bulgarians but that would probably be the IA Bulgaria which was similar to Mycenaeans: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/37958-Iron-Age-Balkan-DNA-on-GEDmatch

A model using Eurogenes G25:

red = ancient Balkan
blue = medieval Slavic

[1] "distance%=1.5125"


Bulgarian


CZE_Early_Slav,27
BGR_IA,24.4
HUN_Avar_Szolad,22
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,17.6
Anatolia_IA,6.8
Tatar,2.2

OR even better:

[1] "distance%=1.4058"


Bulgarian


CZE_Early_Slav,26.8
BGR_IA,23
HUN_Avar_Szolad,22.6
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,14.8
Balkar,7.2
Anatolia_IA,5.6

Krum
06-07-19, 22:39
The latest study on mitochondrial DNA from Thracian paleogenetic material and Proto-Bulgarian from pagan burials 8-10 century The survey was conducted in 2016. in Florentine University, whose laboratory is specialized in the study of the paleogenetic material. The tables of the report show the mitochondrial hippology of the respective samples of Proto-Bulgarian and Thracian genetic material, as well as a comparison of paleo DNA with that of 36 modern European populations. Page 31, Table 2- Results from the Bulgarian probes tested. Page 32, Table 3-Results from Thracian samples. Page40, Table 10 - Number of individuals belonging to mDNA hippocarpins and subgroups in the samples of 37 populations included in the PCA analysis.Under number 37 - Proto-Bulgarian samples. Page 43, Table 11 - under number 37 - Thracian paleo-probes. The comparison is made between the results of the study of Proto-Bulgarians, Thracians and 37 populations from Europe and Asia. The comparison is based on 22 halo logs (H *,H5, HV0, HV, R0a, JT, U1, U2e, U3, U4, U5a, U5b, U6, U7, U8, U *, K, N1, N2, X, M and L). Samples of proto-Bulgarians and Thracians in this analysis are grouped into a single table, the number and ratio of halo logs not changing. Table 12 lists 36 populations from Europe and Asia with which they are compared
Proto-Bulgarians and Thracians. Discuss the data obtained from the PCA (Principal Component Analysis) analysis of the results of all samples
The comparative analysis between Proto-Bulgarians, Thracians and contemporary Bulgarians shows their position among the populations of Europe and Asia. The graph of the PCA analysis (Figure 32) indicates where the populations are and their proximity to other populations. The Proto-Bulgarians are in close proximity to the modern Bulgarians, which confirms theirs
kinship and continuity. In the immediate vicinity are Croats, Hungarians and the population of Central Italy. In close proximity are Romanians, Northern Italians, southern Italians, Sicilians and Greeks. They are distant from the Thracians, showing a lack of kinship and continuity between them according to the initial data on the Thracians. The Proto-Bulgarians are also remote from Turks, Tatars, Chuvashi, Udmurti, Comi, Bashkir, Morvini and others. There is also a lack of proximity to Northern and Eastern Europe. The Thracians are close to Austrians, Slovenes, Bosnians. They are distant from Turks, Tatars, Chuvashi, Udmurti, Comi, Bashkir, Morvini and others. http://www.bulgari-istoria-2010.com/booksBG/AVTOREFERAT%20Desislava%20Nesheva.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1 G4J8mtGvl33MphnGX69sZHa2SLNOEQJCoodbaZPuXE8Kg52O3V _mLgMs

eastara
07-07-19, 14:55
This study is very manipulative, they pick only samples which may serve their agenda - i.e modern Bulgarians are mostly descendants of old Bulgars, who were not Central Asian, but North Caucasus tribe.
The only Bronze Age sample they show is in fact Bul4 Yamnaya_Bulgaria_outlier from "The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe" which happens to fall over modern Croats. They completely ignore the rest of the Balkan Bronze age samples, which fall over modern Tuscans and old Minoans. This way the big shift towards Anatolia/Caucasus looks to come much later with the arrivals of the Bulgars. In fact we have a sample Iron Age Bulgaria, which could be used as a more recent proxy for Thracians.
Krum, the latest Nesheva's study about "Thracian" mtDNA is in fact Early Bronze age. As I just said we have a number of full genomes from that era, see some of them discussed here. We have also the Y haplogroups, majority R1a-Z93 and I2-M223 not at all common among Bulgarians nowadays.
In case you need more information about Bulgarian DNA, read this forum:
http://dnagenealogy-bg.org/mybb/index.php