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Maciamo
25-11-03, 17:15
Check this out :
BBC News : Global HIV rates at record high (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3236200.stm)

The global spread of HIV (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/africa/03/aids_debate/html/default.stm)

In summary, 40 million people are infected with HIV worldwide, with 14.000 new cases daily. In Southern African countries, up to 40% of the people are contaminated ! Imagine 4 people out of 10 in the streets with HIV/AIDS. :mad:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/africa/03/aids_debate/img/current_figures_416.gif

jeisan
25-11-03, 17:19
thats crazy. people really should take more care in choosing sex partners...

samuraitora
25-11-03, 17:52
I have been an advocate of AIDS for years now. It is population control. One thing that makes me crazy about living here in the states is all the warnings and disclaimers. Don't put the hair dryer in the shower? why not??? I have a very low tolerence for stupidity!

I can empathise with the people who have it and feel bad. The bad choices I have made are coming back to bite me in the butt too. I just try to make better decisions. I live as safe as I can using the common sense I have.

Sorry for the ranting.

Iron Chef
25-11-03, 20:51
"I have been an advocate of AIDS for years now. It is population control."

You're kidding right? Because if you aren't... then that it is quite possibly the most insensitive and ignorant thing I have ever heard anyone say. Have you ever known someone with full-blown AIDS or witnessed what they and their families have had to go through? I'm guessing not... And to quote yourself at this juncture:

"I have a very low tolerence for stupidity!"

Well, at least we agree on something...

samuraitora
26-11-03, 15:33
I have 2 friends in the hospital with AIDS right now. One of them is going to die with in the next 5 days, says the doctor. In what I wrote, I said I could empathize with these people. I can feel their pain, based on some of the suffering I have had to endure through the years. I donít care to discuss some of the things I have gone through.

I had a friend in the cancer ward in a Chicago hospital. His jaw had to be removed from chewing tobacco and smoking. He had to be fed with a tube and you could see the roof of his mouth, upper teeth, stub where they left part of the tongue, and a few other nasty things. The nurse had to come in and squirt his gaping hole so it wouldnít dry out. I sat with him and was supportive until the day he died. In that time we conversed on many topics, via speech and writing.

One thing we discussed was population control through the history of man. If it werenít for famine, wars, disease, and many other nasty things that can seem inhuman, this place would be well over populated. Not to mention the fact that people are sensitive to things and if they donít exist, there is nothing to be sensitive of. With a lack of stimuli in a negative way, the human race would have basically gone one of two ways. They would be so innocent and naive or they would have created it on their own through boredom and lack of stimulus.

I donít want to ramble on here, but disease, war, and things of that nature are often good in the long run. That is if you can get over your stigmas and out of your little head and look at the big picture!

Elizabeth
26-11-03, 16:22
Originally posted by samuraitora
IOne thing we discussed was population control through the history of man. If it werenít for famine, wars, disease, and many other nasty things that can seem inhuman, this place would be well over populated. Not to mention the fact that people are sensitive to things and if they donít exist, there is nothing to be sensitive of. With a lack of stimuli in a negative way, the human race would have basically gone one of two ways. They would be so innocent and naive or they would have created it on their own through boredom and lack of stimulus.
I don't know much about this at all, but a couple of obvious points : 1). modern, humane family planning techniques now make population control through "natural" methods nearly obsolete (unless you are an advocate of AIDS even in countries that are actually striving for a higher birth rate) 2). a distinction needs to be drawn between human and natural "population control" disasters and plagues. It could be, for instance, that the balance between human and natural, nonrenewable resources is by definition a final, determining population control measure outside the realm of theoretically "preventable" causes or man made acts such as disease, war, etc. Although the boredom issue is a wholly different matter....

samuraitora
26-11-03, 17:05
In response to:
1) If you follow modern family planning population control methods, the people with the biggest families will populate the planet. I am not advocating AIDS and saying that I am happy it is here. I just thing that AIDS is a better population control than War, because people whom contract it (["for the most part"]) deserve it. That may seem short sided, but if your having unprotected sex or utilizing intravenous needles for drug use, you deserve it. No if, ands, or buts. You know the consequences and still are doing it. Like my friend in the hospital, I empathize with his pain and situation, but still blame him for putting himself in the hospital. He knew the consequences of his actions.

2) Is there really much of a distinction? Most humans have the rationalization and intelligence to be able to extend and find new ways to cope with nonrenewable resources depletion. Tornados, Hurricanes, Lightning, Earth Quakes, and things of that nature can be avoided, predicted, but not made extinct. They will, most likely, always be natural disasters.

Elizabeth
26-11-03, 17:34
Originally posted by samuraitora
In response to:
1) If you follow modern family planning population control methods, the people with the biggest families will populate the planet. I am not advocating AIDS and saying that I am happy it is here. I just thing that AIDS is a better population control than War, because people whom contract it (["for the most part"]) deserve it. That may seem short sided, but if your having unprotected sex or utilizing intravenous needles for drug use, you deserve it. No if, ands, or buts. You know the consequences and still are doing it. Like my friend in the hospital, I empathize with his pain and situation, but still blame him for putting himself in the hospital. He knew the consequences of his actions.

Unless you have data showing that wars which kill the most people tend to occur in places most in need of population control ( aside from genocide or so-called ethnic cleansing) I don't think this comparison really goes anywhere. Likewise, whether they "deserve" it or not is a moral judgement that seems unrelated to the need to keep the population under control. It certainly hasn't had that effect in the US anyway with the disproportionally large non-child bearing demographics that have been impacted.



2) Is there really much of a distinction? Most humans have the rationalization and intelligence to be able to extend and find new ways to cope with nonrenewable resources depletion. Tornados, Hurricanes, Lightning, Earth Quakes, and things of that nature can be avoided, predicted, but not made extinct. They will, most likely, always be natural disasters.
I was thinking more of environmental degradation such as overusing the land, the extinction of game used for food or resources such as oil, minerals, etc that are integral to maintaining a community. And now maybe someone more familiar with these issues can step in.

samuraitora
26-11-03, 17:54
Originally posted by Elizabeth
Unless you have data showing that wars which kill the most people tend to occur in places most in need of population control ( aside from genocide or so-called ethnic cleansing) I don't think this comparison really goes anywhere. Likewise, whether they "deserve" it or not is a moral judgement that seems unrelated to the need to keep the population under control. It certainly hasn't had that effect in the US anyway with the disproportionally large non-child bearing demographics that have been impacted.

The reason that this has a valid point is because the population control opens a area for people to migrate to, move to, or utilize. It isn't always accurate or effective. It is a non-denominational population minimizer. Child bearing or not. If they are not here, the resources that would have been utilized on them can now be saved or redistributed. I am not saying that the theory is perfect or that it works well. This is just my opinion.


.
I was thinking more of environmental degradation such as overusing the land, the extinction of game used for food or resources such as oil, minerals, etc that are integral to maintaining a community. And now maybe someone more familiar with these issues can step in.

So, I should be quiet now...ouch...lol
As man, look at what we used 200 years ago, 150, 100, even 50 years ago. We only utilize part of what we need and everyone is freaking out saying that we are going to run out of oil, land, air, and so on.
Land-not an issue with population control and the fact that we can build up or down.
Oil-again, not an issue. We are moving to electric/solar power and 100 years ago didn't even use Gasoline!!! The oil that we did use, came from whales.
Extinction of Game-nonsense. We may make "wild" game extinct, but we can farm more cows, chickens, and pigs than this country could use.
I am not saying your wrong, just enjoying a good debate.
Thank you.

Elizabeth
26-11-03, 18:10
Originally posted by samuraitora
The reason that this has a valid point is because the population control opens a area for people to migrate to, move to, or utilize. It isn't always accurate or effective. It is a non-denominational population minimizer. Child bearing or not. If they are not here, the resources that would have been utilized on them can now be saved or redistributed. I am not saying that the theory is perfect or that it works well. This is just my opinion.
I guess I don't understand the point here. Certainly urban civilization as we know it today couldn't exist had there never been efforts towards eradicating disease, sanitation and such which go hand in hand with improved quality of life that then leads to effective artificial population control through family planning, birth control, etc.



So, I should be quiet now...ouch...lol
As man, look at what we used 200 years ago, 150, 100, even 50 years ago. We only utilize part of what we need and everyone is freaking out saying that we are going to run out of oil, land, air, and so on.
Land-not an issue with population control and the fact that we can build up or down.
Oil-again, not an issue. We are moving to electric/solar power and 100 years ago didn't even use Gasoline!!! The oil that we did use, came from whales.
Extinction of Game-nonsense. We may make "wild" game extinct, but we can farm more cows, chickens, and pigs than this country could use.
I am not saying your wrong, just enjoying a good debate.
Thank you.
Yes, there are ways around it....but then the question becomes what is the need for population control in the first place if more and more people can be sustained at a reasonable level on fewer and fewer natural resources.

samuraitora
26-11-03, 18:49
Elizabeth,
You are fabulous. Thank you. I haven't had a good debate in a long time.

I can't argue/debate with anything that you said. It is a double edge sword. Population control is good, if we don't want to anihilate what we have now. But on the other had, it isn't really neccessary because we can sustain whatever population we grow.

Iron Chef
26-11-03, 19:30
"That is if you can get over your stigmas and out of your little head and look at the big picture!"

You have the gall to call me narrow-minded after making statements like:

"I just thing that AIDS is a better population control than War, because people whom contract it (["for the most part"]) deserve it. That may seem short sided, but if your having unprotected sex or utilizing intravenous needles for drug use, you deserve it."

No, they "deserve" to be educated and informed rather than have a death sentence cast over them. Quit judging people. You're not qualified.

You also contradict yourself by saying in your first reply:

"I have been an advocate of AIDS for years now. It is population control."

And in your third reply:

"I am not advocating AIDS and saying that I am happy it is here."

So which is it? Quit waffling and trying to backpedal your way out (I noticed your recently added "Disclaimer"...). Personally, I find it tragic that in this day and age there are people like you all across America (and the world for that matter) who still cling to archaic and narrow-minded beliefs like yours. But whatever... I think our mutual opinion of each other is pretty clear at this point.
:)

Elizabeth
26-11-03, 20:28
Originally posted by samuraitora
Elizabeth,
You are fabulous. Thank you. I haven't had a good debate in a long time.

I can't argue/debate with anything that you said. It is a double edge sword. Population control is good, if we don't want to anihilate what we have now. But on the other had, it isn't really neccessary because we can sustain whatever population we grow.
Although unfortunately most of the world still doesn't have access to sustainable solutions. And personal responsibility is crucial, it just isn't that different from the situation even in the US with the number of people receiving medical care for smoking, drinking, lack of exercise, unwanted pregnancy and other avoidable public health problems. :(.

silver angel
26-11-03, 20:47
I've had 2 dear friends of mine pass away due to AIDS and HIV. They didn't do anything to deserve it either. It was caused by an outbreak in the blood system for our bleeding disorder that we have (Hemophilia, Von Willebrand's Disease) (We get medicine from the blood)This caused tons of Hemophiliacs to get infected with HIV and eventually AIDS this was in the 80's so one of my friends, Glen who was 34 got news that he was HIV positive and killed himself, due to the shock of it all. And my dear friend Jim Love, died from HIV and complications with the initial disease, Hemophilia. It's been hard for me to get over this.

samuraitora
26-11-03, 21:22
@ Iron Chef
Why is it you think youíre the one I was talking to with the narrow-minded comment? Are you really that special that I should be concerned by or with what you think? It was a general comment; about people whom either don't know or wont know. You don't mean enough to me to slam you. I am not trying to be an @$$. Just making a point. I will be the first to apologize if I screw something up. I have never been called close-minded in my entire life. About whether they deserve it or not has to do if they make stupid choices. If you chose to have unprotected sex, after you have been informed of the AIDS virus, you do deserve it. That is my point. I donít see how that is archaic. That is simple and I teach my son the same thing. If you do something, something else is going to happen. Equal and opposite reactions for every action. He is 4 and seems to understand this better than most of the population of the planet. The fact you implied that I don't like you is ludicrous. I have not told you anything about my feelings towards you. I actually think you are quite intelligent. I donít always agree with you, and I donít see how that is such a problem. If I agreed with everything you said, that would be an issue.

@Everyone
I used the word advocate wrong in my first post. My most sincere apologies to all of you.

@ Elizabeth
I think you just hit it right on the head with saying that personal responsibility is crucial. That is the issue. Most people donít take responsibility for their actions.

@Silver Angel
I am sorry to hear about your friends. Those are the people that I can empathize with. They didnít make a choice to do something that caused their contraction of the virus. They were inflicted with it and that was unfair. I hope you have someone you can talk to, to help you work through this.

Iron Chef
27-11-03, 03:19
"Why is it you think youíre the one I was talking to with the narrow-minded comment? Are you really that special that I should be concerned by or with what you think? It was a general comment; about people whom either don't know or wont know. You don't mean enough to me to slam you."

Let's see... you posted your original reply, I replied to your post, and in the last line of your immediate reply after me you wrote:

"That is if you can get over your stigmas and out of your little head and look at the big picture!"

General comment aimed at no one in particular? Yeah right... Next time don't use "you" and "your" in the same line (three times no less) and maybe it won't be taken out of context...

And re: your last comment about slamming me... LOL, rest assured if I wanted to REALLY let you know how I feel I most certainly would. I have far too much respect for Thomas, this site, and the rest of our members though to do such a thing publicly. Sorry, but when people make comments like yours I have absolute zero tolerance for them. You have your beliefs and I have mine and apparently I am the only one to take issue with your callousness. So be it.
:)

jeisan
27-11-03, 04:11
i dont know what the issue is between you two, but take it up in PMs or whatever its not something that needs to be on the forum.

Iron Chef
27-11-03, 04:19
The "issue" is I don't tolerate people who make comments like "anybody that gets AIDS deserves to die" which is essentially what he's saying. If you don't think I have shown considerable restraint in my replies to date, you are sorely mistaken. I have already stated in my reply above that I would not stoop so low as to publicly slander him on these boards. Don't presume to lecture me on forum etiquette.

jeisan
27-11-03, 04:35
im not lecturing anyone, that was one sentance and it was directed at both you and samuraitora. its not just this thread either, there have been others. i just chose to comment on this one as its the most recent.

Elizabeth
27-11-03, 04:35
I think probably more useful than ranting and name calling is to look at why some groups of people in developing countries particularly continue to engage in these behaviors if they are so aware it is a death sentence and try to address these proactively though social awareness and education. Unfortunately discussions of sex and gender is so culturally sensitive in some places such as South Africa or Asia that is extremely difficult to get past the denial stage, not to mention the lack of health care, testing, free or low cost condoms, clean needles and other practical prevention measures. Women especially are often in untenable situations with husbands that may have picked it up while away for extended periods, but would likely face abuse or worse by refusing sex. Most are uneducated and many forced into prostitution or the sex trade to earn the family wage. If anything has come of this thread, it should bring a much more nuanced awareness then either "most of the 40 million sufferers obviously have a death wish and are completely responsible for their behavior" or that "they all deserve our sympathy equally and without question."

Iron Chef
27-11-03, 04:50
"Ranting and name calling?" I actually thought I was a little more articulate than that...

*sigh* Ok... here's the deal... I do not want to come off as abrupt or brash in my replies but sometimes you just have to take a stand for something you believe in. Like Silver Angel, I too have lost a good many loved ones to AIDS. Did they deserve it? Absolutely not. Who am I or anyone else for that matter, qualified to cast judgment as so? Which is EXACTLY why I take issue with Samuraitora's remarks.

And as far as you're concerned Elizabeth, you can try and dissect this issue like a clinical surgeon with a sterile knife all you want... but for those of us who have lost dear friends to this terrible affliction, we can't be so unemotional in our stance or as unattached as you in our arguments.

You all know me. I am not prone to passionate outbursts or publicly posting with such fervor. But this is an issue I will not back down from. Anyone that says people who get AIDS deserve to die is imho a complete and utter jerk (to put it lightly). Such remarks are a slap in the face to the dignity of my friend's memories and as such, I will not tolerate them.

I am not asking for a retraction, or even an explanation. I am merely stating how I feel on this subject just as he has already done. If people want to force me on this issue be my guest. I will not yield on this one nor will I apologize for anything I have said up to this point.

Satori
27-11-03, 19:04
I've been debating on whether to even put my two cents in on this one ...

@Samuraitora


I just think that AIDS is a better population control than War, because people whom contract it (["for the most part"]) deserve it. That may seem short sided, but if your having unprotected sex or utilizing intravenous needles for drug use, you deserve it. No if, ands, or buts.

I'm really shocked that you would think that anyone on this planet would ever deserve to contract and suffer from AIDS, no matter how they got it. You've stated your reasons and claim to be empathetic, but true empathy does not include judgment and blame, especially among friends. I'm very sorry for your friend's situation. That's a horrible way to die. I'm also surprised that you would think that war is justified as a form of population control. As a peace activist, I can't relate at all to your sentiments about war, but that's an entirely different discussion ...

@SilverAngel

I am so sorry to hear about your friends and your loss. That has to be so very difficult.

@IronChef

I agree with you ... this is a topic that people should feel passionate about, especially those like yourself who have lost friends and loved ones to this terrible disease. There has been too much prejudice surrounding this subject for many years, and it has created even more suffering for those afflicted with this terrible disease.



I have been searching for a couple of articles I have from the mid- to late-'80s on this subject, but unfortunately, I have been unable to locate them (I will keep looking, though). In 1969, a U.S. army general testified in congress that our government was close to developing a virus that would be resistant to any type of antidote. (If I can locate that article, I can provide his exact testimony.) It would appear that either our government or the government of another country succeeded in creating this type of bio/chemical weapon. And it has been horrible to see so many people die as a result. Many people believe the disease spread through the U.S. via immigrants from third world countries that were targeted by this bio/chemical warfare. I know that the thing I found to be most interesting about Maciamo's link and info. provided above is the confirmation of the increase in AIDS cases in Africa and how much it has spread in just the last few years alone. I remember reading several years ago about the fact that most of the cases first reported in Africa were of government workers who were affected, which then spread like wildfire to the surrounding communities. Many of these poor communities don't have the resources to deal with a disease of this magnitude, and as we all know, even highly developed countries have a difficult time dealing with this disease. The games governments play and the sacrifice of human life as a result is simply appalling. If there is anyone to blame for this disease, it is the people who created this virus in the first place, not those who have been afflicted by it, for whatever reason. No one--no matter what they have done or not done--ever deserves this disease...

Iron Chef
27-11-03, 19:32
Well said Satori, I couldn't agree with you more. Thanks for weighing in on this one.

Satori
27-11-03, 20:03
Thanks, IronChef! I just wish I could find those articles. I moved last year, so a lot of my things are still in boxes. I had to downsize from a three-bedroom house with double-car garage to a two-bedroom apt. with no garage or storage space, so you can just imagine. Hopefully, I didn't lose them in the move!

Elizabeth
27-11-03, 20:45
Originally posted by Iron Chef
I am not asking for a retraction, or even an explanation. I am merely stating how I feel on this subject just as he has already done. If people want to force me on this issue be my guest. I will not yield on this one nor will I apologize for anything I have said up to this point.
No one is asking for an apology. I have actually read articles by gay men online though with banner headlines asking this very question "Do we deserve to die?" and a detailing of continuing and pervasive unsafe sex practices around the world by men who know the dangers and still pass the disease along.....so all I'm saying is I don't think the question is meant to be taken so personally or should be out of the realm of discussion.....It is terrible when anyones friend dies, I've had friends die as well, but presumably they weren't putting anyone else's life at risk either.

Satori
27-11-03, 21:31
What's interesting is that most of the cases reported in Africa were (and are) among heterosexuals, not homosexuals.

Speaking of which, I just noticed this article about the increase in AIDS orphans in Africa:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/998443.asp?vts=112720031449

This is really sad. It doesn't sound like the governments over there are doing much to address this problem, so it will most likely continue to get worse.

silver angel
28-11-03, 02:23
Satori you deserve one of my hugs! *hugs* You must be one of the smartest people I know! I've been able to cope witht he losses but my friend Tony is still shaken up from it all. He has AIDS too (from the same outbreak) and he knows that he doesn't have much time left. So everyone is helping him get back on his feet.

Satori
28-11-03, 02:36
Oh my God, poor Tony! I'm sure he's shaken up, especially knowing the same thing is going to happen to him. What a horrible, horrible realization to have to live with! And it has to be so hard on you, knowing you're going to lose him too. You deserve a big hug, and let's both give Tony a hug!! My heart really goes out to him!

silver angel
28-11-03, 20:50
Thanks so much Satori! You're a big help.

Iron Chef
01-12-03, 09:25
Just an FYI:

Today (Dec. 1st) is World AIDS Day. Everybody do yourself a favor and go get tested (for your own peace of mind) if you haven't already done so. Most places can do it for free with the results confidential. It's quick, easy, and painless and can be done in as little as 20 minutes using the OraQuick method which has a 99.6% accuracy rate.

*ends sermon*
:)

samuraitora
01-12-03, 15:37
If I may ask a question with out everyone hating me for what I say.

Is anyone to be held accountable for his or her actions?
If so, are there consequences for their choices?
I was always under the impression that; you make your choice and there are reactions and consequences that follow that choice. If this doesnít apply to all choices and only to the minor ones, please set me straight.

I will not retract what I said. No one even seems to notice the Parentheses, Brackets and Quotation marks around the ďfor the most partĒ. I donít believe that everyone that has the disease deserves it. I am also not passing judgment. This is simple logic, unless you guys straighten me out. I was under the impression that if you are caught speeding, you get a ticket. In the same respect, if you do something to contract AIDS, youíre going to get it. Simple, or so I thought. Why this makes me callous, I am not sure. So, true, I am not a bleeding heart. I donít feel that everyone on this planet deserves to be happy and comfortable all the time and I do hold people accountable for their actions. If this makes me an ass, then so be it. I am an ass.

Satori
02-12-03, 10:29
Originally posted by Samuraitora:
If I may ask a question with out everyone hating me for what I say.

Is anyone to be held accountable for his or her actions?
If so, are there consequences for their choices?
I was always under the impression that; you make your choice and there are reactions and consequences that follow that choice. If this doesn?t apply to all choices and only to the minor ones, please set me straight.

I will not retract what I said. No one even seems to notice the Parentheses, Brackets and Quotation marks around the ?for the most part?. I don?t believe that everyone that has the disease deserves it. I am also not passing judgment. This is simple logic, unless you guys straighten me out. I was under the impression that if you are caught speeding, you get a ticket. In the same respect, if you do something to contract AIDS, you?re going to get it. Simple, or so I thought. Why this makes me callous, I am not sure. So, true, I am not a bleeding heart. I don?t feel that everyone on this planet deserves to be happy and comfortable all the time and I do hold people accountable for their actions. If this makes me an ass, then so be it. I am an ass.


Hi Samuraitora!

While I can't speak for anyone else, I do know that the problem for me wasn't so much whether or not people are held accountable for their actions but, rather, why YOU felt the need to hold them accountable for their actions. It seemed that instead of merely acknowledging your friends' and others' situations and being there for them in their time of need, you were judging them and claiming that they "deserved" what they were experiencing. In other words, you were there for them with judgment, not love and true friendship. There's a big difference between acknowledging something and judging it to be right or wrong, good or bad, positive or negative. Why should it even matter how they got the disease? The fact is, they have it and they need your compassion now more than ever. The reason I said that I was "shocked" was because I was truly shocked by your attitude. Obviously, I haven't read all of your posts at this forum, but of the posts I have read, you always seemed to come across as someone who was pretty laid back and tolerant of most things and people. That is why you shocked me! I guess the question I have is, Why do you feel the need to judge and hold others accountable for their actions? On the one hand, you say, " I am also not passing judgment. " But then you also say, "I do hold people accountable for their actions. If this makes me an ass, then so be it." Yet the whole purpose of viewing situations in a "cause-and-effect" context is to learn from them with respect to our OWN experiences, and not as a license to judge others and their experiences. My first thought all along was that you may have been projecting your own judgment and self-blame onto your friends' situations, and I think you even alluded to the fact that you were basing your judgment on some of your own past experiences that you held yourself accountable for. In that respect, I wonder if maybe you are still harboring a lot of judgment and blame towards yourself for some of your own past actions. As I'm sure you know, we can only be loving towards others to the extent that we love ourselves; we can only be forgiving towards others to the extent that we forgive ourselves; and we can only be compassionate towards others to the extent that we are compassionate with ourselves. Maybe if you focused more on healing the areas within yourself where you may still harbor judgment and blame towards yourself, you could learn to have more compassion, forgiveness, and love for yourself, which you would then be more likely to demonstrate towards others as well. We're all mirrors for each other in life. And while we can't change other people, we can change ourselves by changing our fears, doubts, attitudes, and beliefs. This is just one example, but about 10 or 15 years ago, I dealt with this same type of situation, only in relation to the issue of deception. Whenever someone would lie to me it would really push my buttons! So one day I decided to examine what that was all about. I knew that what we are, we attract, and that whatever we react to strongly in another person or another situation--good or bad--is what we have not yet identified or acknowledged within ourselves. So the first question I asked myself was, Do I lie to other people? No. Next question. Do I lie to myself? Yes ... and usually about the person who's lying to me. So my self-deception attracted deception into my life. And it was then that I realized that the real issue wasn't about deception but about power and control. Because the real question was, Why was I relying so heavily on other people's information? It's all information. Why rely on it? Why give my power away like that? So once I acknowledged those areas within myself, I no longer attracted deception into my life--or if I did experience it, it no longer affected me or pushed my buttons. I would simply look at the person who was lying to me and think to myself, "How interesting. They need to lie to me for some reason." But it wouldn't bother me because I didn't choose to buy into their information. I would simply acknowledge it instead. Anyway, my point is, maybe if you explored more fully your own judgment and blame towards yourself, you might not be so judgmental towards others' experiences. Because, frankly, it sounds to me like your friends need your love and understanding, not your judgment, at this very difficult time in their lives.


Satori
:)

samuraitora
02-12-03, 15:26
Thanks for the input Satori. There are quite a few glistening gems for thought in there. I understand where youíre coming from with the loving others as much as yourself and such. This I believe to a certain extent. I care more, am more compassionate, and empathizes with and for others more so than with my self. I am very hard on my self because I come from an abusive background. I was beaten a few times a day for the first 8 years of my life and mental tortured for the next 20. This is not an excuse for my actions, just a side note, so you can dive into the psyche of John.

You hit the nail right on the head. I apologize for coming across as the judge of these people. It wasnít meant that way. If I hold people accountable, does that make me the judge? I donít think I am the exicutioner either. I am just a spectator in this crazy thing we call life. Was there a manual passed out that I missed? Just Kidding!!! There are rules and one that I have notice over my 29 years is that if you do something, something else is going to happen.

Satori
03-12-03, 14:33
Hi Samuraitora!


There are rules and one that I have noticed over my 29 years is that if you do something, something else is going to happen.

True, but it's not our place to judge that for others.


If I hold people accountable, does that make me the judge?

Afraid so! Holding someone accountable is definitely judging. Why not simply acknowledge where they are at in their life and leave it at that? As you pointed out, "I am just a spectator in this crazy thing we call life." If so, then merely witness what's going on and refrain from holding anyone "accountable." Let them worry about their own karma, while you worry about yours. Try not to see them or their situation as either good or bad, right or wrong, but, rather, "what is." (Very Zen, by the way!!)


Was there a manual passed out that I missed?

LOL! I feel that way about a lot of things in life!


I am very hard on my self ...

I can relate. I have a very similar background myself, and it seems most of my life has been spent trying to overcome it. I still find myself carrying out other people's punishment at times. It's amazing how ingrained that sort of thing can become. I, too, was always more supportive and understanding of others than I was towards myself. It's taken me years to learn to treat myself as good as--or better--than I treat everyone else. It's tough, though, especially if you were raised in a family where your needs just weren't important, or at least as important as everyone else's. But the easier you are on yourself, the easier you will be on others. It really has to start with yourself first. Sometimes if a person's background and childhood include abusers who were never punished (for most of us, that would be our parents), they will oftentimes vicariously experience situations where, in their minds, justice is finally being carried out against "the bad guy." I've noticed this a lot with prosecutors. A lot of them come from very abusive childhoods, and they feel that when they are able to achieve justice for a client, they somehow achieve justice for themselves as well. Of course, the reality is that they are still suffering and nothing that happens externally is going to fix that. That's why it really doesn't serve anyone's interests for you to hold anyone accountable. That's their job. You can only work on yourself and your own issues and choices in life. And that, alone, can be a full time job! I have a brother-in-law who broke his neck when he was one month shy of turning 25 (this was back in 1979). He and some of his relatives were out on a boat in the Gulf of Mexico, and while he checked the stick that measures the depth of the water on one side of the boat, he failed to check it again on the other side. So when he dove in, he ended up hitting his head on a sandbar and breaking his neck. He is now paralyzed from the chest down, and has only 40% use of his lungs. He has use of his arms and hands, but since he doesn't have much grip strength in his hands, he's considered a quadriplegic (four limbs involved). It's tough, because he will always be haunted by his actions or inactions that day. But what good does that serve anyone? The fact is, he's now paralyzed and that is his life from here on out. I don't judge him, and I would hope he can get to the point where he no longer judges himself (maybe he has). Life is too short to live it with regrets of any kind. Instead, I like the motto: "Live and let live!"

Anyway, hope that helps!

Satori
:)

Elizabeth
03-12-03, 18:49
Originally posted by Satori

I can relate. I have a very similar background myself, and it seems most of my life has been spent trying to overcome it. I still find myself carrying out other people's punishment at times. It's amazing how ingrained that sort of thing can become. I, too, was always more supportive and understanding of others than I was towards myself. It's taken me years to learn to treat myself as good as--or better--than I treat everyone else. It's tough, though, especially if you were raised in a family where your needs just weren't important, or at least as important as everyone else's. But the easier you are on yourself, the easier you will be on others. It really has to start with yourself first. Sometimes if a person's background and childhood include abusers who were never punished (for most of us, that would be our parents), they will oftentimes vicariously experience situations where, in their minds, justice is finally being carried out against "the bad guy." I've noticed this a lot with prosecutors. A lot of them come from very abusive childhoods, and they feel that when they are able to achieve justice for a client, they somehow achieve justice for themselves as well. Of course, the reality is that they are still suffering and nothing that happens externally is going to fix that. That's why it really doesn't serve anyone's interests for you to hold anyone accountable.
I think I understand what you are trying to say, Satori, about the wielding of power externally not healing deep-seated internal wounds, which need forgiveness and understanding and in that sense criminal abusers cannot be "held accountable" for not fulfilling that need in those they've harmed in the same way that your brother should not hold himself accountable for something in which no remediation is now possible.
I'm just not sure in what other senses "accountability" shouldn't be applied. It seems totally justifiable and necessary in legal and work related settings, for instance, where the well-being of other people is concerned that everyone need be responsible for their own performance and ethical conduct. Doesn't mean that there aren't explanations for criminal/mis-behavior or that you shouldn't try to understand it, just that there will be external consequences where appropriate to try and prevent the same thing from happening again. Whether AIDS victims deserve to die or not (are morally accountable for their actions) is also beside the point since it remains a virtual death sentence in many places regardless of the sympathy or understanding they may garner. All you can do really is try to prevent the powerless or unsuspecting from also becoming affected.

Satori
03-12-03, 21:52
Hi Elizabeth,

I agree there needs to be legal liability. I was merely directing my response to Samuraitora's posts about moral accountability, not legal accountability. I don't think it's our place to judge others morally and to hold them accountable in that respect. But legal liability is a whole different animal. That's why I said in one of my earlier posts that if there is anyone to blame for AIDS, it's the people who developed the virus in the first place. With respect to my comments about prosecutors, I was referring to their moral self-righteousness in addition to their duty to carry out justice. In the law, it's important to stay objective and neutral as much as possible, but some people have a tendency to project their own issues into the fray too often. I just think that those who are injured and damaged by this disease need our love, understanding, and compassion, not our judgment.

Satori
:)

samuraitora
04-12-03, 16:25
My thought, just to help me understand, is that we are not supposed to hold people accountable for their actions. The can do anything they want and have no conciquences???

I am not trying to argue, just trying to understand. Judge, I am not trying to be either. They made their decision/choice and the judgement, in this case, was made by nature (not me). I didn't say that they had to get AIDS or anything for what they have done. I just think that they need to be held accountable for thier actions and take responsibility for their deeds.

Satori
04-12-03, 16:43
Judge, I am not trying to be either. They made their decision/choice and the judgement, in this case, was made by nature (not me). I didn't say that they had to get AIDS or anything for what they have done. I just think that they need to be held accountable for thier actions and take responsibility for their deeds.

So you say, although you also posted earlier:


I just think that AIDS is a better population control than War, because people whom contract it (["for the most part"]) deserve it. That may seem short sided, but if your having unprotected sex or utilizing intravenous needles for drug use, you deserve it. No if, ands, or buts.

The point is, you are not being paid to sit on a jury trial, nor are your friends' lives on trial. So why is it that you feel it is your duty to see that they are held accountable for anything in their lives? It's really not your business. Needing to see them pay for something you think they did sounds more like your issues, not theirs. If you are a true friend, you will simply be there for them in their time of need and suspend any and all judgment.

Elizabeth
04-12-03, 16:44
Originally posted by samuraitora
My thought, just to help me understand, is that we are not supposed to hold people accountable for their actions. The can do anything they want and have no conciquences???

I am not trying to argue, just trying to understand. Judge, I am not trying to be either. They made their decision/choice and the judgement, in this case, was made by nature (not me). I didn't say that they had to get AIDS or anything for what they have done. I just think that they need to be held accountable for thier actions and take responsibility for their deeds.
And who is to say they are not after all? It's a very individual matter of course, those who feel they were somehow sexually violated may blame their partner, some may not even be aware of how they got it and on and on. There are a myriad of perspectives and there really isn't any greater accountability that I can see then living with a terminal illness.

buruburu
07-12-03, 04:08
@ Samuraitora

I tried to write a super long passionate reply to prove some of your quotation are very disturbing.
So, staying courteous, I'll only add:
Have you consider a personnal implication of the consequences of war and AIDS contamination? Can you imagine your friend or relatives be victims of this fleau?
The verb "to deserve" is dodgy;;

samuraitora
08-12-03, 16:45
It is a good point...it is dodgy.

I apologize for my comments!
I am done!

Satori
24-12-03, 23:47
Silver Angel,

I've been thinking about your friend, Tony. How is he doing lately? Is he holding up okay? I hope so! Please tell him I am keeping him in my prayers.

Satori

P.S. I saw this photo recently and it reminded me of your moniker, "Silver Angel":

dadako
30-12-03, 22:19
Who here thinks that AIDS might be part of a grander plan?

A few examples are South Africa's chemical weapons tests, explains why whites have a higher tollerence to aids than blacks.

Or some kind of other Chemical weapon, invented during the war.

how about mother nature herself, kicking in some sort of automatic population control.

god?

aliens?

bossel
31-12-03, 04:36
I think that it's quite well established now that HIV originated in Chimps (known as SIV there) & was somehow transferred more or less naturally to human beings in the mid 20th century.

More on the origins of HIV:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2983092.stm

ponynut
24-01-04, 04:36
oh my goodness, ive just read all of the postings and d'you know what? the person posting origonally just doesnt quite gett it! i think satoris comments are excellent, id like to say people with hiv or aids only deserve sympathy-isnt it bad enough having the virus??? they dont need judging after the fact do they dear?, you must be so dissatisfied with life and dissapointed with everyone, i feel for you, tell me- i suffer with M.E and co-incidentally the symptoms are similar to AIDS accept thankfully im told i wont die directly of it, do i deserve it too???, hmmmmm i wonder?, no, im not having a dig actually im quite interested how you figured your conclusions out?, you say shouldnt we be accountable for our actions??? im not sure if we are from the same earth/mental ward here but who told you 'life was fair?' it seems like you feel thats how things should be, sadly they are not, chocolate makes you fat and apparently childbirth hurts, oh cheer up, life is poo sometimes thats a fact, we all make mistakes, people live to make fools of us, sometimes things even go right, my guess is that we were all put on this earth for a reason-i expect youll think im wrong, i dont care really (judge away) i think life is about clearing up mess, ours and other peoples, how well we do depends on how we clear it up!-simple really, if we are abused and are made a mess of its really about clearing up that mess, its not about the person abusing you, you are only in control of your own brain after all, yes sometimes that is the hard part-being in control of it (not in an O.C.D way) anyway, im not digging at you but please put a thought aside for the horrendous reality of some peoples situation and what they have to face, also stop trying to justify stuff-you dont have to be perfect or right, youll wear yourself out! oh and judgement day will come soon enough for all of us dont be too hasty to get there first-enjoy life its too short for any of us-take it easy.

ponynut
24-01-04, 04:54
to bossel... your note about chimps, i have read studies about such theories and conclusions derived from tons of evidence to support that the AIDS virus is derived from chimps, i have also read studies re:Dr f. batmanghelidj, he says that even if (for example) two men without the hiv virus partake of enough a*** sex, they eventually develop a tear and semen enters the blood, he claims that even if the guys dont have it they will eventually succumb to aids like symptoms because the make up of semen is such that it is an immune suppressant(apparently) a protein called sv-iv, i havent read all of this mans studies, but just thought if the subject interests you you may want to check-out his work, he claims to be able to treat aids succesfully as well, after having read his book on the healing properties of water i believe this man to be above board and normal, check him out anyway.

Eternal Wind
24-02-04, 21:07
To what I may think about aids is that Humans are the cause of it,we humans like to have sex,and sex leads to diseases,diseases leads to chaos....and wad we should do now to stop the spread is to have protected sex and prevent prositution etc.know ur partners condition and all this can be prevented...as for a cure?how long will it take to have one? :atchoo:

deborah gormley
25-02-04, 01:58
wow HEATED!!! :box:

every-one has and deserves an oppinion!!! :mad: no matter how crazy or uninformed it may seem,,, I dare not give my opinion,, I just might come out of this debate feeling a little :auch: :confused: :( [email protected] the topic!!! :eek: Have my last "ROLO" . I"m sure AIDS is that far spread around the world that more people than I can Imagion has been touched/will be touched by its effects, lets not pass judgement on how it is contracted? undeserved/deserved!! Its a killer,, lets find a CURE!! instead!!!! :bow: :bow:

Satori
02-03-04, 03:04
I finally found the article I mentioned previously. I was in the middle of packing again, and where did I find the magazine I was looking for? At the bottom of my magazine rack, that's where. Now, who would have thought to look there?! LOL. And I had been looking through boxes of old magazines, silly me. Anyway, here it is:

The Search for the Ultimate Bioweapon

The military has several times expressed its fantasies for new biological weapons. Some of these images are chillingly suggestive of a microbe that would cause AIDS. In 1969, a military official testified before Congress:

"Within the next 5 or 10 years, it would
probably be possible to make a new infective micro-organism which could differ in certain important respects from any known disease-causing organisms. Most important of these is that it might be refractory [resistant] to the immunological and therapeutic processes upon which we depend to maintain our relative freedom from infectious disease."

In a book on CBW written just before the identification of AIDS, two authors commented on this testimony:

"The possibility that such a 'super germ' may have been successfully produced in a laboratory somehwere in the world in the years since that assessment was made is one which should not be too readily cast aside.... This is not an entirely academic speculation. In 1968 Porton Down [the British Army's Biological Warfare Laboratory] and Ft. Detrick collaborated in the successful transfer of genes between different strains of plague bacillus. The research was done 'for purely defensive purposes.'"

...

CBW Tests in the U.S.

Tests of CBW agents, often performed without the knowledge of human subjects, have been carried out for decades on both individuals and entire populations. Many of these programs were exposed in the mid and late 1970s through media and congressional investigations and Freedom of Information lawsuits. The most famous program was MKULTRA, one of several CIA and Army projects seeking to perfect mind control and incapacitating agents. Many of the drugs tested had been rejected by pharmaceutical companies due to their undesirable side effects. In the 1950s and 1960s, scores of such drugs, including LSD, were tested on military personnel and prisoners.

Other common CBW tests included open-air experiments spraying what were claimed to be harmless agents. In 1977, the Army admitted carrying out hundreds of such tests since World War II, including 25 targeting the public. On 48 occasions between 1951 and 1967, the Army employed microbes known to be disease-causing agents in open air tests, and it used disease-causing anti-crop substances 31 times. Some especially outrageous highlights:

* In 1950, the U.S. Navy sprayed a cloud of bacteria over San Francisco. The Navy claimed the bacteria used in the simulated attack were harmless, but many residents came down with pneumonia-like symptoms and one died.

* In 1952 and 1953, clouds of zinc cadmium sulfide were sprayed over Winnipeg, Manitoba; St. Louis, Missouri; Minneapolis, Minnesota; Fort Wayne, Indiana; the Monocacy River Valley in Maryland; and Leesburg, Virginia. Despite claims of harmlessness, a military report noted respiratory problems.

* In 1955, the Tampa Bay area of Florida experienced a sharp rise in whooping cough cases, including 12 deaths, following a CIA bio-war test whose details are still secret, involving bacteria withdrawn from an Army CBW center.

* From 1956 to 1958, in the poor Black communities of Savannah, Georgia, and Avon Park, Florida, the Army carried out field tests with mosquitos that may have been infected with yellow fever. The insects were released into residential areas from ground level and dropped from planes and helicopters. Many people were swarmed by mosquitos and then developed unknown fevers; some died. After each test, Army agents posing as public health officials photographed and tested victims and then disappeared from town.

* From June 7 to 10, 1966, the Army's Special Operations Division dispensed a bacillus throughout the New York City subway system. The Army's report on the experiment noted the existence of subways in the Soviet Union, Europe, and South America.

* In 1968 and 1969, the CIA experimented with the possibility of poisoning drinking water systems by injecting a chemical substance into the water supply of the Food and Drug Administration building in Washington.

* In 1976, the Humane Society of Utah questioned the mysterious deaths of 50 wild horses who had drank from a spring near the U.S. Army's Dugway Proving Ground, a CBW research center.

* One highly suspicious incident that could bear scrutiny as a possible CBW test is the 1978 "mass suicide" of 900 Black North Americans in Jonestown, Guyana. [Footnote: John Judge, a Philadelphia activist who has extensively investigated the incident, notes that many of the drugs found there were the same ones tested under MKULTRA. The Guyanese Chief Medical Examiner testified in court that 80 percent of the bodies he examined showed signs of forcible injections. Jim Jones, the self-proclaimed leader of the "People's Temple" which moved to Guyana from San Francisco, and one of his aides, had CIA connections. The father of Jonestown leader Larry Layton was head of CBW Research at the Army's Dugway Proving Gounds in the 1950s. The elder Layton admitted contributing $25,000 to the People's Temple. According to Judge, "Public exposure (in the mid-1970s) of experiments in U.S. prisons and mental institutions was, in all likelihood, a major impetus for relocating this testing to the jungles of a virtually unknown country."]

CovertAction Information Bulletin, Number 28 (Summer 1987), pp. 34, 37-40.



And here is a link to some very good information on the subject of not only AIDS but the Gulf War Syndrome as well:
http://www.all-natural.com/riley.html

Satori
20-03-04, 10:08
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=69242#post69242

bossel
21-03-04, 02:33
[...]In 1969, a military official testified before Congress:

"Within the next 5 or 10 years, it would
probably be possible to make a new infective micro-organism which could differ in certain important respects from any known disease-causing organisms. Most important of these is that it might be refractory [resistant] to the immunological and therapeutic processes upon which we depend to maintain our relative freedom from infectious disease."
[...]
And here is a link to some very good information on the subject of not only AIDS but the Gulf War Syndrome as well:
http://www.all-natural.com/riley.html
If the US developed such a virus in the 70's they were lacking far behind nature. HIV occurred in humans probably before 1950:
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993718

Quote:
"The HIV-1 virus that has caused the main global pandemic of AIDS started when a Simian Immunodeficiency Virus (SIV) jumped from chimpanzees to humans. This occurred in about 1930 in what is now the Democratic Republic of the Congo."

There is not much doubt that the US developed ABC weapons & tested some of these on their military personnel or even civilians. But I think, that has absolutely no relevance to HIV/AIDS.

Jovialis
03-04-20, 17:23
Check this out :
BBC News : Global HIV rates at record high (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3236200.stm)

The global spread of HIV (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/africa/03/aids_debate/html/default.stm)

In summary, 40 million people are infected with HIV worldwide, with 14.000 new cases daily. In Southern African countries, up to 40% of the people are contaminated ! Imagine 4 people out of 10 in the streets with HIV/AIDS. :mad:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/africa/03/aids_debate/img/current_figures_416.gif

https://i.imgur.com/gCL6QOL.png

https://africanarguments.org/2020/04/03/coronavirus-in-africa-tracker-how-many-cases-and-where-latest/

I think the low-rate of Covid-19 infections in Africa is due to a lack of data collection, and means to do so. However, given the AIDS pandemic, I think the death toll from Covid-19 will be devastating.