Health AIDS spreading fast worldwide

"Ranting and name calling?" I actually thought I was a little more articulate than that...

*sigh* Ok... here's the deal... I do not want to come off as abrupt or brash in my replies but sometimes you just have to take a stand for something you believe in. Like Silver Angel, I too have lost a good many loved ones to AIDS. Did they deserve it? Absolutely not. Who am I or anyone else for that matter, qualified to cast judgment as so? Which is EXACTLY why I take issue with Samuraitora's remarks.

And as far as you're concerned Elizabeth, you can try and dissect this issue like a clinical surgeon with a sterile knife all you want... but for those of us who have lost dear friends to this terrible affliction, we can't be so unemotional in our stance or as unattached as you in our arguments.

You all know me. I am not prone to passionate outbursts or publicly posting with such fervor. But this is an issue I will not back down from. Anyone that says people who get AIDS deserve to die is imho a complete and utter jerk (to put it lightly). Such remarks are a slap in the face to the dignity of my friend's memories and as such, I will not tolerate them.

I am not asking for a retraction, or even an explanation. I am merely stating how I feel on this subject just as he has already done. If people want to force me on this issue be my guest. I will not yield on this one nor will I apologize for anything I have said up to this point.
 
Last edited:
I've been debating on whether to even put my two cents in on this one ...

@Samuraitora

I just think that AIDS is a better population control than War, because people whom contract it (["for the most part"]) deserve it. That may seem short sided, but if your having unprotected sex or utilizing intravenous needles for drug use, you deserve it. No if, ands, or buts.

I'm really shocked that you would think that anyone on this planet would ever deserve to contract and suffer from AIDS, no matter how they got it. You've stated your reasons and claim to be empathetic, but true empathy does not include judgment and blame, especially among friends. I'm very sorry for your friend's situation. That's a horrible way to die. I'm also surprised that you would think that war is justified as a form of population control. As a peace activist, I can't relate at all to your sentiments about war, but that's an entirely different discussion ...

@SilverAngel

I am so sorry to hear about your friends and your loss. That has to be so very difficult.

@IronChef

I agree with you ... this is a topic that people should feel passionate about, especially those like yourself who have lost friends and loved ones to this terrible disease. There has been too much prejudice surrounding this subject for many years, and it has created even more suffering for those afflicted with this terrible disease.



I have been searching for a couple of articles I have from the mid- to late-'80s on this subject, but unfortunately, I have been unable to locate them (I will keep looking, though). In 1969, a U.S. army general testified in congress that our government was close to developing a virus that would be resistant to any type of antidote. (If I can locate that article, I can provide his exact testimony.) It would appear that either our government or the government of another country succeeded in creating this type of bio/chemical weapon. And it has been horrible to see so many people die as a result. Many people believe the disease spread through the U.S. via immigrants from third world countries that were targeted by this bio/chemical warfare. I know that the thing I found to be most interesting about Maciamo's link and info. provided above is the confirmation of the increase in AIDS cases in Africa and how much it has spread in just the last few years alone. I remember reading several years ago about the fact that most of the cases first reported in Africa were of government workers who were affected, which then spread like wildfire to the surrounding communities. Many of these poor communities don't have the resources to deal with a disease of this magnitude, and as we all know, even highly developed countries have a difficult time dealing with this disease. The games governments play and the sacrifice of human life as a result is simply appalling. If there is anyone to blame for this disease, it is the people who created this virus in the first place, not those who have been afflicted by it, for whatever reason. No one--no matter what they have done or not done--ever deserves this disease...
 
Well said Satori, I couldn't agree with you more. Thanks for weighing in on this one.
 
Thanks, IronChef! I just wish I could find those articles. I moved last year, so a lot of my things are still in boxes. I had to downsize from a three-bedroom house with double-car garage to a two-bedroom apt. with no garage or storage space, so you can just imagine. Hopefully, I didn't lose them in the move!
 
Iron Chef said:
I am not asking for a retraction, or even an explanation. I am merely stating how I feel on this subject just as he has already done. If people want to force me on this issue be my guest. I will not yield on this one nor will I apologize for anything I have said up to this point.
No one is asking for an apology. I have actually read articles by gay men online though with banner headlines asking this very question "Do we deserve to die?" and a detailing of continuing and pervasive unsafe sex practices around the world by men who know the dangers and still pass the disease along.....so all I'm saying is I don't think the question is meant to be taken so personally or should be out of the realm of discussion.....It is terrible when anyones friend dies, I've had friends die as well, but presumably they weren't putting anyone else's life at risk either.
 
What's interesting is that most of the cases reported in Africa were (and are) among heterosexuals, not homosexuals.

Speaking of which, I just noticed this article about the increase in AIDS orphans in Africa:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/998443.asp?vts=112720031449

This is really sad. It doesn't sound like the governments over there are doing much to address this problem, so it will most likely continue to get worse.
 
Last edited:
Satori you deserve one of my hugs! *hugs* You must be one of the smartest people I know! I've been able to cope witht he losses but my friend Tony is still shaken up from it all. He has AIDS too (from the same outbreak) and he knows that he doesn't have much time left. So everyone is helping him get back on his feet.
 
Oh my God, poor Tony! I'm sure he's shaken up, especially knowing the same thing is going to happen to him. What a horrible, horrible realization to have to live with! And it has to be so hard on you, knowing you're going to lose him too. You deserve a big hug, and let's both give Tony a hug!! My heart really goes out to him!
 
Just an FYI:

Today (Dec. 1st) is World AIDS Day. Everybody do yourself a favor and go get tested (for your own peace of mind) if you haven't already done so. Most places can do it for free with the results confidential. It's quick, easy, and painless and can be done in as little as 20 minutes using the OraQuick method which has a 99.6% accuracy rate.

*ends sermon*
:)
 
If I may ask a question with out everyone hating me for what I say.

Is anyone to be held accountable for his or her actions?
If so, are there consequences for their choices?
I was always under the impression that; you make your choice and there are reactions and consequences that follow that choice. If this doesn?t apply to all choices and only to the minor ones, please set me straight.

I will not retract what I said. No one even seems to notice the Parentheses, Brackets and Quotation marks around the ?for the most part?. I don?t believe that everyone that has the disease deserves it. I am also not passing judgment. This is simple logic, unless you guys straighten me out. I was under the impression that if you are caught speeding, you get a ticket. In the same respect, if you do something to contract AIDS, you?re going to get it. Simple, or so I thought. Why this makes me callous, I am not sure. So, true, I am not a bleeding heart. I don?t feel that everyone on this planet deserves to be happy and comfortable all the time and I do hold people accountable for their actions. If this makes me an ass, then so be it. I am an ass.
 
Originally posted by Samuraitora:
If I may ask a question with out everyone hating me for what I say.

Is anyone to be held accountable for his or her actions?
If so, are there consequences for their choices?
I was always under the impression that; you make your choice and there are reactions and consequences that follow that choice. If this doesn?t apply to all choices and only to the minor ones, please set me straight.

I will not retract what I said. No one even seems to notice the Parentheses, Brackets and Quotation marks around the ?for the most part?. I don?t believe that everyone that has the disease deserves it. I am also not passing judgment. This is simple logic, unless you guys straighten me out. I was under the impression that if you are caught speeding, you get a ticket. In the same respect, if you do something to contract AIDS, you?re going to get it. Simple, or so I thought. Why this makes me callous, I am not sure. So, true, I am not a bleeding heart. I don?t feel that everyone on this planet deserves to be happy and comfortable all the time and I do hold people accountable for their actions. If this makes me an ass, then so be it. I am an ass.


Hi Samuraitora!

While I can't speak for anyone else, I do know that the problem for me wasn't so much whether or not people are held accountable for their actions but, rather, why YOU felt the need to hold them accountable for their actions. It seemed that instead of merely acknowledging your friends' and others' situations and being there for them in their time of need, you were judging them and claiming that they "deserved" what they were experiencing. In other words, you were there for them with judgment, not love and true friendship. There's a big difference between acknowledging something and judging it to be right or wrong, good or bad, positive or negative. Why should it even matter how they got the disease? The fact is, they have it and they need your compassion now more than ever. The reason I said that I was "shocked" was because I was truly shocked by your attitude. Obviously, I haven't read all of your posts at this forum, but of the posts I have read, you always seemed to come across as someone who was pretty laid back and tolerant of most things and people. That is why you shocked me! I guess the question I have is, Why do you feel the need to judge and hold others accountable for their actions? On the one hand, you say, " I am also not passing judgment. " But then you also say, "I do hold people accountable for their actions. If this makes me an ass, then so be it." Yet the whole purpose of viewing situations in a "cause-and-effect" context is to learn from them with respect to our OWN experiences, and not as a license to judge others and their experiences. My first thought all along was that you may have been projecting your own judgment and self-blame onto your friends' situations, and I think you even alluded to the fact that you were basing your judgment on some of your own past experiences that you held yourself accountable for. In that respect, I wonder if maybe you are still harboring a lot of judgment and blame towards yourself for some of your own past actions. As I'm sure you know, we can only be loving towards others to the extent that we love ourselves; we can only be forgiving towards others to the extent that we forgive ourselves; and we can only be compassionate towards others to the extent that we are compassionate with ourselves. Maybe if you focused more on healing the areas within yourself where you may still harbor judgment and blame towards yourself, you could learn to have more compassion, forgiveness, and love for yourself, which you would then be more likely to demonstrate towards others as well. We're all mirrors for each other in life. And while we can't change other people, we can change ourselves by changing our fears, doubts, attitudes, and beliefs. This is just one example, but about 10 or 15 years ago, I dealt with this same type of situation, only in relation to the issue of deception. Whenever someone would lie to me it would really push my buttons! So one day I decided to examine what that was all about. I knew that what we are, we attract, and that whatever we react to strongly in another person or another situation--good or bad--is what we have not yet identified or acknowledged within ourselves. So the first question I asked myself was, Do I lie to other people? No. Next question. Do I lie to myself? Yes ... and usually about the person who's lying to me. So my self-deception attracted deception into my life. And it was then that I realized that the real issue wasn't about deception but about power and control. Because the real question was, Why was I relying so heavily on other people's information? It's all information. Why rely on it? Why give my power away like that? So once I acknowledged those areas within myself, I no longer attracted deception into my life--or if I did experience it, it no longer affected me or pushed my buttons. I would simply look at the person who was lying to me and think to myself, "How interesting. They need to lie to me for some reason." But it wouldn't bother me because I didn't choose to buy into their information. I would simply acknowledge it instead. Anyway, my point is, maybe if you explored more fully your own judgment and blame towards yourself, you might not be so judgmental towards others' experiences. Because, frankly, it sounds to me like your friends need your love and understanding, not your judgment, at this very difficult time in their lives.


Satori
:)
 
Thanks for the input Satori. There are quite a few glistening gems for thought in there. I understand where you?re coming from with the loving others as much as yourself and such. This I believe to a certain extent. I care more, am more compassionate, and empathizes with and for others more so than with my self. I am very hard on my self because I come from an abusive background. I was beaten a few times a day for the first 8 years of my life and mental tortured for the next 20. This is not an excuse for my actions, just a side note, so you can dive into the psyche of John.

You hit the nail right on the head. I apologize for coming across as the judge of these people. It wasn?t meant that way. If I hold people accountable, does that make me the judge? I don?t think I am the exicutioner either. I am just a spectator in this crazy thing we call life. Was there a manual passed out that I missed? Just Kidding!!! There are rules and one that I have notice over my 29 years is that if you do something, something else is going to happen.
 
Hi Samuraitora!

There are rules and one that I have noticed over my 29 years is that if you do something, something else is going to happen.

True, but it's not our place to judge that for others.

If I hold people accountable, does that make me the judge?

Afraid so! Holding someone accountable is definitely judging. Why not simply acknowledge where they are at in their life and leave it at that? As you pointed out, "I am just a spectator in this crazy thing we call life." If so, then merely witness what's going on and refrain from holding anyone "accountable." Let them worry about their own karma, while you worry about yours. Try not to see them or their situation as either good or bad, right or wrong, but, rather, "what is." (Very Zen, by the way!!)

Was there a manual passed out that I missed?

LOL! I feel that way about a lot of things in life!

I am very hard on my self ...

I can relate. I have a very similar background myself, and it seems most of my life has been spent trying to overcome it. I still find myself carrying out other people's punishment at times. It's amazing how ingrained that sort of thing can become. I, too, was always more supportive and understanding of others than I was towards myself. It's taken me years to learn to treat myself as good as--or better--than I treat everyone else. It's tough, though, especially if you were raised in a family where your needs just weren't important, or at least as important as everyone else's. But the easier you are on yourself, the easier you will be on others. It really has to start with yourself first. Sometimes if a person's background and childhood include abusers who were never punished (for most of us, that would be our parents), they will oftentimes vicariously experience situations where, in their minds, justice is finally being carried out against "the bad guy." I've noticed this a lot with prosecutors. A lot of them come from very abusive childhoods, and they feel that when they are able to achieve justice for a client, they somehow achieve justice for themselves as well. Of course, the reality is that they are still suffering and nothing that happens externally is going to fix that. That's why it really doesn't serve anyone's interests for you to hold anyone accountable. That's their job. You can only work on yourself and your own issues and choices in life. And that, alone, can be a full time job! I have a brother-in-law who broke his neck when he was one month shy of turning 25 (this was back in 1979). He and some of his relatives were out on a boat in the Gulf of Mexico, and while he checked the stick that measures the depth of the water on one side of the boat, he failed to check it again on the other side. So when he dove in, he ended up hitting his head on a sandbar and breaking his neck. He is now paralyzed from the chest down, and has only 40% use of his lungs. He has use of his arms and hands, but since he doesn't have much grip strength in his hands, he's considered a quadriplegic (four limbs involved). It's tough, because he will always be haunted by his actions or inactions that day. But what good does that serve anyone? The fact is, he's now paralyzed and that is his life from here on out. I don't judge him, and I would hope he can get to the point where he no longer judges himself (maybe he has). Life is too short to live it with regrets of any kind. Instead, I like the motto: "Live and let live!"

Anyway, hope that helps!

Satori
:)
 
Satori said:

I can relate. I have a very similar background myself, and it seems most of my life has been spent trying to overcome it. I still find myself carrying out other people's punishment at times. It's amazing how ingrained that sort of thing can become. I, too, was always more supportive and understanding of others than I was towards myself. It's taken me years to learn to treat myself as good as--or better--than I treat everyone else. It's tough, though, especially if you were raised in a family where your needs just weren't important, or at least as important as everyone else's. But the easier you are on yourself, the easier you will be on others. It really has to start with yourself first. Sometimes if a person's background and childhood include abusers who were never punished (for most of us, that would be our parents), they will oftentimes vicariously experience situations where, in their minds, justice is finally being carried out against "the bad guy." I've noticed this a lot with prosecutors. A lot of them come from very abusive childhoods, and they feel that when they are able to achieve justice for a client, they somehow achieve justice for themselves as well. Of course, the reality is that they are still suffering and nothing that happens externally is going to fix that. That's why it really doesn't serve anyone's interests for you to hold anyone accountable.
I think I understand what you are trying to say, Satori, about the wielding of power externally not healing deep-seated internal wounds, which need forgiveness and understanding and in that sense criminal abusers cannot be "held accountable" for not fulfilling that need in those they've harmed in the same way that your brother should not hold himself accountable for something in which no remediation is now possible.
I'm just not sure in what other senses "accountability" shouldn't be applied. It seems totally justifiable and necessary in legal and work related settings, for instance, where the well-being of other people is concerned that everyone need be responsible for their own performance and ethical conduct. Doesn't mean that there aren't explanations for criminal/mis-behavior or that you shouldn't try to understand it, just that there will be external consequences where appropriate to try and prevent the same thing from happening again. Whether AIDS victims deserve to die or not (are morally accountable for their actions) is also beside the point since it remains a virtual death sentence in many places regardless of the sympathy or understanding they may garner. All you can do really is try to prevent the powerless or unsuspecting from also becoming affected.
 
Hi Elizabeth,

I agree there needs to be legal liability. I was merely directing my response to Samuraitora's posts about moral accountability, not legal accountability. I don't think it's our place to judge others morally and to hold them accountable in that respect. But legal liability is a whole different animal. That's why I said in one of my earlier posts that if there is anyone to blame for AIDS, it's the people who developed the virus in the first place. With respect to my comments about prosecutors, I was referring to their moral self-righteousness in addition to their duty to carry out justice. In the law, it's important to stay objective and neutral as much as possible, but some people have a tendency to project their own issues into the fray too often. I just think that those who are injured and damaged by this disease need our love, understanding, and compassion, not our judgment.

Satori
:)
 
My thought, just to help me understand, is that we are not supposed to hold people accountable for their actions. The can do anything they want and have no conciquences???

I am not trying to argue, just trying to understand. Judge, I am not trying to be either. They made their decision/choice and the judgement, in this case, was made by nature (not me). I didn't say that they had to get AIDS or anything for what they have done. I just think that they need to be held accountable for thier actions and take responsibility for their deeds.
 
Judge, I am not trying to be either. They made their decision/choice and the judgement, in this case, was made by nature (not me). I didn't say that they had to get AIDS or anything for what they have done. I just think that they need to be held accountable for thier actions and take responsibility for their deeds.

So you say, although you also posted earlier:

I just think that AIDS is a better population control than War, because people whom contract it (["for the most part"]) deserve it. That may seem short sided, but if your having unprotected sex or utilizing intravenous needles for drug use, you deserve it. No if, ands, or buts.

The point is, you are not being paid to sit on a jury trial, nor are your friends' lives on trial. So why is it that you feel it is your duty to see that they are held accountable for anything in their lives? It's really not your business. Needing to see them pay for something you think they did sounds more like your issues, not theirs. If you are a true friend, you will simply be there for them in their time of need and suspend any and all judgment.
 
samuraitora said:
My thought, just to help me understand, is that we are not supposed to hold people accountable for their actions. The can do anything they want and have no conciquences???

I am not trying to argue, just trying to understand. Judge, I am not trying to be either. They made their decision/choice and the judgement, in this case, was made by nature (not me). I didn't say that they had to get AIDS or anything for what they have done. I just think that they need to be held accountable for thier actions and take responsibility for their deeds.
And who is to say they are not after all? It's a very individual matter of course, those who feel they were somehow sexually violated may blame their partner, some may not even be aware of how they got it and on and on. There are a myriad of perspectives and there really isn't any greater accountability that I can see then living with a terminal illness.
 
@ Samuraitora

I tried to write a super long passionate reply to prove some of your quotation are very disturbing.
So, staying courteous, I'll only add:
Have you consider a personnal implication of the consequences of war and AIDS contamination? Can you imagine your friend or relatives be victims of this fleau?
The verb "to deserve" is dodgy;;
 

This thread has been viewed 31359 times.

Back
Top