Immigration EU proposes "blue card" for skilled immigrants

[Maciamo]

One of Europe's biggest problem is "bad" immigrants, i.e. unskilled, poorly educated immigrants from third world countries, especially those whose culture or religion prevents them from integrating efficiently into European society.

Americans rarely understand the grief of Europeans because they do not know anything similar. The so-called "bad immigrants" in the US nowadays are the Mexicans, who are usually eager to work, eager to integrate, speak a language close to English and are generally Christians, just like the majority of US citizens.

The USA was built on immigration, and immigrants are often well qualified, and even absorb some of the best brains in the world, including from Europe. In such conditions, needless to say that immigration can hardly be regarded as a negative thing in the States.

For Europeans, thanks to the EU, immigration now means "influx of people from outside the EU" (+ other Schengen countries like Norway, Iceland and Switzerland), which basically means people from outside Europe.

As very few other Westerners migrate to Europe (it's usually the other way round, with Europeans leaving for North America or Australia), most of the immigrants come from developping countries.

Franco Frattini, the EU Justice Commissioner, explained that the US was getting 55% of all skilled migrants, and Europe only 5%. 85% of migrants that have not studied beyond high school come to Europe, 5% go to the USA, and 10% elsewhere.

To reverse this trend, he proposes the creation of a blue card, copied on the US green card.

In my opinion, the blue card system should be combined with mass expulsion of unskilled immigrants that have previously been condemned for criminal activities. This is the only way of relieving Europe from the increasingly bad image of immigration, and build a new kind of "quality immigration", like Americans have been enjoying for decades.

 

[Ma Cherie]

I believe you're correct when you say that some Americans don't understand the grief that Europeans are feeling. But then, these complaints are coming mainly from Conservatives who think Mexicans are just coming to the US just steal "American" jobs. And they're not trying to learn English, but people usually don't know how long the waiting lists are for ESL classes. No, they're trying to integrate into American society. Those particular Americans don't realize that. Besides, many businesses can benefit from those "unskilled" Mexican immigrants, because they don't have to pay them as much. But that's another issue.

Now I don't know what's going in Europe and you have these immigrants who aren't trying to integrate into European society. Then again, I still have to wonder, do those immigrants feel they can integrate into European society. I'm wondering are there some issues with discrimination? :? There are many questions, why is Europe attracting this influx of "bad" immigrants?

 

[ErichFranz]

In my opinion, the blue card system should be combined with mass expulsion of unskilled immigrants that have previously been condemned for criminal activities. This is the only way of relieving Europe from the increasingly bad image of immigration, and build a new kind of "quality immigration", like Americans have been enjoying for decades.

Europeans need to grow a backbone. You let these people into your countries (many of them are asylum seekers) and give them money and opportunities and they repay you by gang raping women, committing crime, trying to take over your countries, etc.

WHAT IS THIS SHIT?

 

[^ lynx ^]

Then again, I still have to wonder, do those immigrants feel they can integrate into European society. I'm wondering are there some issues with discrimination?

Wearing burkah's and creating Sharia Council's... they doesn't look like they want to integrate themselves in Europe.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

One of Europe's biggest problem is "bad" immigrants, i.e. unskilled, poorly educated immigrants from third world countries, especially those whose culture or religion prevents them from integrating efficiently into European society.

Americans rarely understand the grief of Europeans because they do not know anything similar. The so-called "bad immigrants" in the US nowadays are the Mexicans, who are usually eager to work, eager to integrate, speak a language close to English and are generally Christians, just like the majority of US citizens.

The USA was built on immigration, and immigrants are often well qualified, and even absorb some of the best brains in the world, including from Europe. In such conditions, needless to say that immigration can hardly be regarded as a negative thing in the States.

For Europeans, thanks to the EU, immigration now means "influx of people from outside the EU" (+ other Schengen countries like Norway, Iceland and Switzerland), which basically means people from outside Europe.

As very few other Westerners migrate to Europe (it's usually the other way round, with Europeans leaving for North America or Australia), most of the immigrants come from developping countries.

Franco Frattini, the EU Justice Commissioner, explained that the US was getting 55% of all skilled migrants, and Europe only 5%. 85% of migrants that have not studied beyond high school come to Europe, 5% go to the USA, and 10% elsewhere.

To reverse this trend, he proposes the creation of a blue card, copied on the US green card.

In my opinion, the blue card system should be combined with mass expulsion of unskilled immigrants that have previously been condemned for criminal activities. This is the only way of relieving Europe from the increasingly bad image of immigration, and build a new kind of "quality immigration", like Americans have been enjoying for decades.

The main problem with "new" U.S. immigrants is that a majority are unskilled and even illiterate in their own languages, not to mention that a good many are illegal and have criminal records in their home countries. The jails in the the U.S. are filled with illegal Latino types who have committed very serious crimes, such as drug running, rape, armed robbery and murder.

To some extent, Europe's immigrant dilemma is even worse, because it's foreigner population is primarily Muslim and unwilling to integrate. A plague that is beginning to destroy traditional European society.

 

[Maciamo]

The main problem with "new" U.S. immigrants is that a majority are unskilled and even illiterate in their own languages, not to mention that a good many are illegal and have criminal records in their home countries. The jails in the the U.S. are filled with illegal Latino types who have committed very serious crimes, such as drug running, rape, armed robbery and murder.

Europe's African immigrants are in majority illiterate too, and I can tell you that Belgian and French jails are filled with Maghreban criminals. In Belgium over 10% of prisoners are Moroccans, although they "only" make 2% of the population. Over 50% of all prisoners are immigrants from poor southern countries.

 

[^ lynx ^]

In Spain, moroccans (and colombians) are overrepresented in our jails as well.

Immigrants make 30% of our prisioners.

 

[Wilhelm]

How can a country like Japan can work so well without immigration ? (they have about 1%) . I know countries like Holland or Belgium are more crowded, they have more density population.
In Norway, the majority of crimes and rapes (90+%) are committed by immigrants or descendants of immigrants

 

[^ lynx ^]

Well Wilhelm, I've heard that Japan is changing its policy on immigration due to the fact that their average population is getting older and older.

Japan has the highest life expectancy in the world... and one of the lowest birth rate.

 

[chris eblana]

i totally agree with the blue cards...i mean other regions of the world like canada, australia and america attract educated and skilled immigrants, while we are left with the freeloaders in europe...they curb the immigration flow when they have not enough potential immigrants of a high level of education that is why their immigration policies work, while europe's fail..they do not contribute much into our society,as they hardly get any jobs,many live off our welfare system. their only use is to the companies that employ them for pitiful wages and make huge profit by exploiting them, and when those companies move to china we are left with thousands of unskilled immigrants that do not want to go back or move to any other country simply because our welfare system is too generous...it is no use..
we need to educate and integrate the ones we already have, and help them get a job and start contributing to the local economy and society,and for the future we need to introduce the blue cards system, so we can control who comes,who goes,and where he goes,and attract how many we need,of what skill and which country needs them.....we need to start having a common immigration policy in EU at last!!

 

[Chris]

This assumes that government knows what its doing. It doesn't:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-highly-skilled-migrants-in-skilled-jobs.html

For those 'highly skilled' immigrants who fail to get the highly skilled job they were supposed to be let in for, what next? Do we revoke their visa or shrug and say 'Oh well, never mind. We meant well.' The latter. Holy smoke.

Kids born and raised here - of all races - can't get call centre jobs because of this nonsense plus the numbers of graduates conned into thinking they HAD to get a degree, who can't get the jobs they thought they now 'deserve', and stats show are working in - call centres.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/educatio...ty-graduates-taking-jobs-in-call-centres.html

In my job, I have to referee non-EU people who are banging on about their rights with my staff. They mostly have Dutch passports, then promptly come to the UK. Have they paid tax to earn their 'rights'? Nope.

Tell you what - the lunatics are running the asylum. Blue card?! That would just figure. If it actually meant getting intelligent immigrants who contribute to European culture instead of trying to supplant it, perhaps, but that's not at all likely as this 'high flyer' demonstrates:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...erhaul-of-websites-hosting-terror-videos.html

 

[Minty]

How can a country like Japan can work so well without immigration ? (they have about 1%) . I know countries like Holland or Belgium are more crowded, they have more density population.
In Norway, the majority of crimes and rapes (90+%) are committed by immigrants or descendants of immigrants

They have been receiving lot of financial help from the US and they are very obedient to the US considering what they have done during WWII and that they couldn't have a "real" military power. Their neighbour China has nuclear, so they must "obey" the US.

Moreover the country is small. Smaller countries tend to have lesser problems!

I think they have 3 percent immigrants. Lynx said that their system now had a problem because they had too many old people and not enough young people, they needed to change it. That is true!

Northern European countries are rich with much less immigrants than Western or Southern Europeen countries. This is so obvious when they rotate the president of EU, we can clearly see that Spain has very different problems than Finland!

 

[Minty]

In Spain, moroccans (and colombians) are overrepresented in our jails as well.

Immigrants make 30% of our prisioners.

I prefer you use the words unskilled immigrants, although in this context I am certain you mean immigrants from Morocco and Colombia.

 

[Minty]

Europe's African immigrants are in majority illiterate too, and I can tell you that Belgian and French jails are filled with Maghreban criminals. In Belgium over 10% of prisoners are Moroccans, although they "only" make 2% of the population. Over 50% of all prisoners are immigrants from poor southern countries.

I have a book from the gendarme's office that confirms this fact. When I mentioned it to my proffessor in my oral exam, she was outraged that I said the crimes in France were mainly done by foreigners. Not foreigners such as Canadians or Japanese but foreigners who came from poor or countries where there has had war or still having war I confirmed!

I then concluded that if people could turn violent just by watching too much violence on television what kind of damage wars could do to a person? Then at that moment she shut up! :grin:

 

[Maciamo]

They have been receiving lot of financial help from the US and they are very obedient to the US considering what they have done during WWII and that they couldn't have a "real" military power. Their neighbour China has nuclear, so they must "obey" the US.

What does this have to do with immigration ?

Moreover the country is small. Smaller countries tend to have lesser problems!

Japan is 13x bigger than Belgium (both in land area and population) and 10x bigger than the Netherlands.

I think they have 3 percent immigrants.

If you are still talking about Japan, it is slightly over 1%. In comparison, the Netherlands, Belgium and France have between 10 and 12% of immigrants nowadays, about 10x more than Japan. And I am not counting immigration from more than 2 generations ago. In France, over 20% of the surnames are foreign.

Northern European countries are rich with much less immigrants than Western or Southern Europeen countries. This is so obvious when they rotate the president of EU, we can clearly see that Spain has very different problems than Finland!

Britain had the highest percentage of foreign-born residents in the EU (about 15% of non-natives). Even Sweden has about 9% of immigrants (without counting other Nordics living in Sweden), including a very sizeable number of refugees from the Middle East and Afghanistan.

In comparison, Portugal has only 1.3% of foreigners and Greece has 0.8%. Spain has a considerable number of foreign residents too, but if you remove people from neighbouring countries, other EU countries (retirees from Britain and Germany), and citizens from former colonies (who can almost all claim some Spanish ancestry), the actual percentage of immigrants is only about 4%. So it is obvious that massive immigration is a problem mostly in northern Europe.

 

[Chris]

So it is obvious that massive immigration is a problem mostly in northern Europe.

To me, it's an issue of wealth. The northern European economies are richer, and attract economic migrants, many of which do not buy into the way of life of their host countries. They're merely there for financial reasons, otherwise levels of integration with the host culture would be much higher than they actually are.

 

[Minty]

What does this have to do with immigration ?

Japan is 13x bigger than Belgium (both in land area and population) and 10x bigger than the Netherlands.

It is a small country, big countries for me are countries like China and the US!

If you are still talking about Japan, it is slightly over 1%. In comparison, the Netherlands, Belgium and France have between 10 and 12% of immigrants nowadays, about 10x more than Japan. And I am not counting immigration from more than 2 generations ago. In France, over 20% of the surnames are foreign.

The Japanese lost in WWII that's why despite that they are bigger than France or Belgium they have no immigrants!

Britain had the highest percentage of foreign-born residents in the EU (about 15% of non-natives). Even Sweden has about 9% of immigrants (without counting other Nordics living in Sweden), including a very sizeable number of refugees from the Middle East and Afghanistan

.

Yes, but the US, Canada Australia etc are Anglophone countries, together it is big, and once you have learnt your English well, you can get jobs in all Anglophone countries!

In comparison, Portugal has only 1.3% of foreigners and Greece has 0.8%. Spain has a considerable number of foreign residents too, but if you remove people from neighbouring countries, other EU countries (retirees from Britain and Germany), and citizens from former colonies (who can almost all claim some Spanish ancestry), the actual percentage of immigrants is only about 4%. So it is obvious that massive immigration is a problem mostly in northern Europe.

I am referring to unskilled or illegal immigrants; it is not possible that Northern Europe has more problems with illegal immigration than Southern Europe. It is too expensive and too cold to live outside without dying of cold, not to mention how exhausting it would be to travel all the way there from the Middle East or Africa!

 

[Maciamo]

It is a small country, big countries for me are countries like China and the US!

So you only have two categories for countries : very big and others (small) ?

Japan is the 10th most populous country on Earth (out of over 200). How can it be small ? Even in land area, it is bigger than Germany.

The Japanese lost in WWII that's why despite that they are bigger than France or Belgium they have no immigrants!

Sorry, I fail to see the slightest connection. Germany and Austria lost WWII too and got a lot of immigrants. Post-WWII Japan had all the necessary prerequisites for strong immigration : a booming economy, a former colonial empire, a free and "democratic" society. The rest of Asia was poor enough until the 1970's or 80's to wish to look for work in Japan. And indeed, 3/4 of all immigrants to Japan come from East Asia (almost only from former colonies, like Korea, Manchuria, Taiwan, the Philippines, Vietnam, Thailand...). The question is why has immigration always been so restricted in Japan compared to Europe ?

Yes, but the US, Canada Australia etc are Anglophone countries, together it is big, and once you have learnt your English well, you can get jobs in all Anglophone countries!

How about Scandinavia, Germany, the Benelux and France ?

I am referring to unskilled or illegal immigrants; it is not possible that Northern Europe has more problems with illegal immigration than Southern Europe. It is too expensive and too cold to live outside without dying of cold, not to mention how exhausting it would be to travel all the way there from the Middle East or Africa!

Yet, there are countless homeless refugees in northern Europe. Many risk their lives by being smuggled illegally into Britain inside cargo ships or trucks passing the Euro Tunnel. There are huge refugee camps on the French side of the Euro Tunnel. Unless they are caught by the authorities in Spain or Italy, illegal immigrants head directly for northern Europe.

It's a common delusion shared by Third World immigrants that the economy is better in northern European countries (it's not always the case, they are huge discrepancies between regions, and Catalonia, the Basque country or northern Italy are certainly better places to make money than the English Midlands or the Nord-Pas-de-Calais).

Many immigrants know that social security is better in some countries than others (like France and Belgium). In Belgium, once naturalised, a citizen can claim unemployment benefits forever (Belgium is the only country in the world where unemployment benefits have no limit in time). That's like paradise for lazy Africans. I once had the chance to access unemployment records for Brussels, and I was shocked to see that over half of all the people getting the dole (unemployment benefits) had African names (including Maghreban ones). Only about 20% of those who received money from the Belgian state had Belgian names. Yet, officially they were all Belgian, as non-Belgian have no right to such benefits. I think that the government should be much tougher on naturalisations, and even require a blood connection to the country (at least one great-grand-parent, or a child or grandchild who has Belgian blood) + proven fluency in one of the national languages + a minimum of 10 years of legal work in the country. The same should be applied in all EU countries to avoid visa-shopping in the countries with easy naturalisation laws).

 

[Minty]

So you only have two categories for countries : very big and others (small) ?
Japan is the 10th most populous country on Earth (out of over 200). How can it be small ? Even in land area, it is bigger than Germany.

However aside from Japan, how many other countries outside of Japan speak Japanese. Which language do they use to do business outside of Japan?
England may be small but how many other countries outside of England are Anglophone countries or use English to communicate with each other for business for politics?

The Japanese wanted what the British had, they tried to conquer Asia but they failed, and hence they lost their place to the Europeans!

Yes but after the war in 1946 Winston churchill who was famous for fighting against the Nazi, proposed the creation of the united states of Europe.

Is there a united States of Asia?

Sorry, I fail to see the slightest connection. Germany and Austria lost WWII too and got a lot of immigrants. Post-WWII Japan had all the necessary prerequisites for strong immigration : a booming economy, a former colonial empire, a free and "democratic" society. The rest of Asia was poor enough until the 1970's or 80's to wish to look for work in Japan. And indeed, 3/4 of all immigrants to Japan come from East Asia (almost only from former colonies, like Korea, Manchuria, Taiwan, the Philippines, Vietnam, Thailand...). The question is why has immigration always been so restricted in Japan compared to Europe ?

You forgot that Germany was cut in half, and during the cold war all the Eastern European countries learnt German instead of English. The vast majority of their immigrants are from Eastern Europe!


Well, the Japanese were very xenophobic, they didn’t want immigrants. Moreover aside from Japan I don't know any other Country who speaks Japanese. Some Koreans, Taiwanese etc may speak Japanese but you can't go to Taiwan or Thailand and just randomly picking people on the streets and expect them to be able to speak Japanese to you, can you? Maybe Korea because they never had a reform unlike in Taiwan that speaking Japanese was prohibited after the war ended, just like the Alsatians were no longer allowed to speak German in schools after the war.

How about Scandinavia, Germany, the Benelux and France ?

Germany's immigrants are mostly from Eastern Europe. Most of the Dutch immigrants are Chinese or Indonesians. Wasn't Indonesia once a Dutch colony? Mind you all the South East Asian countries have Chinese immigrants. Considering the Dutch are so American like I am not surprise that there are lots of Chinese or Indonesians over there! The French language in Europe is rather important right after English, and from what I can see most of the immigrants here are from French's former colonies like North Africa and Vietnam.
Luxembourg has a lot of Portuguese immigrants, I have a friend who married a guy from there, and they made fun of the Portuguese for some reason. In luxembourg people speak German, French, and English all these are useful in Europe anyway!

Yet, there are countless homeless refugees in northern Europe. Many risk their lives by being smuggled illegally into Britain inside cargo ships or trucks passing the Euro Tunnel. There are huge refugee camps on the French side of the Euro Tunnel. Unless they are caught by the authorities in Spain or Italy, illegal immigrants head directly for northern Europe.
It's a common delusion shared by Third World immigrants that the economy is better in northern European countries (it's not always the case, they are huge discrepancies between regions, and Catalonia, the Basque country or northern Italy are certainly better places to make money than the English Midlands or the Nord-Pas-de-Calais).

France is not that cold, not the south, they have much more immigrants down south. Anyway coming from Africa they already know how to speak some French! I met a Chinese girl who went to school there she confirmed to me before I moved to Paris compared to the north she has seen by far more immigrants down there! The winter months are harsh on everyone living in a cold climate---especially if they're homeless.

Many immigrants know that social security is better in some countries than others (like France and Belgium). In Belgium, once naturalised, a citizen can claim unemployment benefits forever (Belgium is the only country in the world where unemployment benefits have no limit in time). That's like paradise for lazy Africans. I once had the chance to access unemployment records for Brussels, and I was shocked to see that over half of all the people getting the dole (unemployment benefits) had African names (including Maghreban ones). Only about 20% of those who received money from the Belgian state had Belgian names. Yet, officially they were all Belgian, as non-Belgian have no right to such benefits. I think that the government should be much tougher on naturalisations, and even require a blood connection to the country (at least one great-grand-parent, or a child or grandchild who has Belgian blood) + proven fluency in one of the national languages + a minimum of 10 years of legal work in the country. The same should be applied in all EU countries to avoid visa-shopping in the countries with easy naturalisation laws).

Yes this I agree! I once witnessed an Algerian girl said to a Japanese girl, that they were nothing like the French, that they cared for each other the French were nothing but cold materialistic racist people who discriminated them. This was really funny! If the North Africans do not like money, why are they here sucking up the French government's money by having lots of children? Moreover Japan is a very wealthy country, all those things that they find attractive from Japan cost a lot of money. They are really a bunch of hypocrite!

 

[Maciamo]

However aside from Japan, how many other countries outside of Japan speak Japanese. Which language do they use to do business outside of Japan?

What does this have to do with the fact that Japan is a big country ? Nowadays almost everybody uses English for business in international contexts - even when a Chinese meets a Korean. But English is only native to England in Europe (though it has become the native language of most people in Wales, Scotland and Ireland).

Anyway, for the sake of the argument, Koreans, Manchus and Taiwanese had to learn Japanese when they were Japanese colonies. Believe it or not, I have met a lot of people who could speak at least some Japanese when I was travelling around Asia (especially in India). In the 1980's and 90's it was very popular for Americans and Australians to learn Japanese for business, when the Japanese economy was still good. Nowadays it's Mandarin. Nevertheless, Japanese is probably still the most popular Asian language learnt in Western countries (I mean learnt for fun, because people are interested in Japanese culture).

The Japanese wanted what the British had, they tried to conquer Asia but they failed, and hence they lost their place to the Europeans!

Wrong reasoning. European powers (chiefly Britain, France, and the Netherlands) had colonised most of Asia, but the Japanese made them lose their colonies. The British Empire started collapsing the day Singapore surrendered to the Japanese. French Indo-China never recovered from the Japanese conquest.

Anyway, what does this have to do with the fact that Japan is a big country and a bigger economic power than any single European country ?

Yes but after the war in 1946 Winston churchill who was famous for fighting against the Nazi, proposed the creation of the united states of Europe.

Is there a united States of Asia?

So what ? What's your point ? There was no EU in the 1950's, 60's and 70's when immigration was at its historical highest in Europe.

You forgot that Germany was cut in half, and during the cold war all the Eastern European countries learnt German instead of English. The vast majority of their immigrants are from Eastern Europe!

I am not talking about East Europeans immigrants to East Germany (of which there were very few). Millions of Turkish immigrants came to work to West Germany during the Cold War years. Nowadays Germany is the country that accepted the most political refugees and asylum seekers in the developed world. To give you an idea, there are now more Third World immigrants/refugees going to Germany than to the USA ! I think this has to do with the sense of culpability that Germans feel towards WWII and the Holocaust. They are trying to be nice to make up for it.

Well, the Japanese were very xenophobic, they didn’t want immigrants.

Can you name a country where people like poor, uneducated, badly-behaved immigrants ?

Moreover aside from Japan I don't know any other Country who speaks Japanese. Some Koreans, Taiwanese etc may speak Japanese but you can't go to Taiwan or Thailand and just randomly picking people on the streets and expect them to be able to speak Japanese to you, can you? Maybe Korea because they never had a reform unlike in Taiwan that speaking Japanese was prohibited after the war ended, just like the Alsatians were no longer allowed to speak German in schools after the war.

With that logic, there shouldn't be any (non-European) immigrants to Germany, the Netherlands or Scandinavia.

Germany's immigrants are mostly from Eastern Europe. Most of the Dutch immigrants are Chinese or Indonesians. Wasn't Indonesia once a Dutch colony?

Indonesia was a Dutch colony, but the Dutch never bothered to teach their language in their colonies. It's surprising that a (half) Malaysian like you doesn't know that the Dutch used Bahasa Melayu as a lingua franca to communicate with the locals in Indonesia. They were the only Europeans who used an indigenous tongue instead of their own. The result is that a language native to Malaysia is now the official language of Indonesia, where it wasn't spoken at all a few centuries ago.

So why did so many Indonesians feel like migrating to the Netherlands, a cold and distant country which language they didn't know ?

By the way, ethnic Indonesians only make up 2.3% of the Dutch population, while other immigrants amount to 15% of the population. There are actually more Turks and almost as many Moroccans as Indonesians in the Netherlands, and neither country has any historical or linguistic tie with the Netherlands.

Luxembourg has a lot of Portuguese immigrants, I have a friend who married a guy from there, and they made fun of the Portuguese for some reason. In luxembourg people speak German, French, and English all these are useful in Europe anyway!

I know, I grew up near Luxembourg. But again, what's your point ? People go to Luxembourg for the money (it's the richest country in the world in GDP per capita). But why weren't there more people going to Japan in the 80's and early 90's when salaries were the highest in the world ?

Yes this I agree! I once witnessed an Algerian girl said to a Japanese girl, that they were nothing like the French, that they cared for each other the French were nothing but cold materialistic racist people who discriminated them. This was really funny! If the North Africans do not like money, why are they here sucking up the French government's money by having lots of children? Moreover Japan is a very wealthy country, all those things that they find attractive from Japan cost a lot of money. They are really a bunch of hypocrite!

Then at least we agree on this.