Dedicated haplogroup pages

[razor]

I would have given THIS item a + but apparently there is a restriction on approval or criticism per diem so I'll do it this way =)))

 

[Maciamo]

Here is a first draft of Haplogroup R1b. I haven't modified the history for over a year, so I should re-read everything once and see if everything is consistent with my current knowledge. I should also make a new subclade tree.

 

[Kardu]

Here is a first draft of Haplogroup R1b. I haven't modified the history for over a year, so I should re-read everything once and see if everything is consistent with my current knowledge. I should also make a new subclade tree.

Loved the draft, one thing though, on the scheme U152 is noted as R1b1a2a1a1b4 and in the table as R1b1a2a1a1b3

 

[Knovas]

I already noticed that in the global distribution there's 5% of R1b in Northwest Africa without especification (mostly in Morocco and some in Tunisia) and then, there's between 1-5% of R-S28 (mostly in Algeria and a bit in Tunisia).

I assume the figure for Tunisia is the same type of R1b in both maps, but ¿which subclade is the Moroccan one? and ¿What happened with Algeria in the global map (absent)?

 

[Maciamo]

Loved the draft, one thing though, on the scheme U152 is noted as R1b1a2a1a1b4 and in the table as R1b1a2a1a1b3

That's because I have already updated the table but not yet the scheme. I will fix it soon.

 

[razyn]

I'm pleased to see Z196 mentioned at last, but would respectfully differ from the description of its most prevalent ancient ethnic group(s). That, and the "highest frequency" data, are based on the fact that those relatively young branches of Z196 were found in the labs (and thus in the literature) long before Z196 itself was identified. However, the very populous "North/South cluster," the L165/S68 subclade of L176.2, and some Z196* remnant populations show little or no Iberian or Gascon concentration. As a very early clade of S116/P312, Z196 has been found in old populations at least as far east as Russia, Poland and Hungary, with a small but apparently early presence in coastal areas of Scandinavia.

 

[Mikewww]

Here is a first draft of Haplogroup R1b. I haven't modified the history for over a year, so I should re-read everything once and see if everything is consistent with my current knowledge. I should also make a new subclade tree.

There are substantial changes in granularity in the R1b-L21/S145 haplogroup. ISOGG is fairly up to date.
http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

An leading edge L21 subclade tree box chart is here http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/

I will try to summarize the more significant subclades of R1b-L21/S145:

L513/DF1/S214 which has further suclades (in order of size) of L193, L705.2 and P66.
L513 is scattered across British Isles but reaches into Sweden, Benelux and France and is associated with the
11-13 Combo cluster. L193 is the largest subclade of L513 and has a preponderance of Scottish Border lineages
and surnames.

Z253 which has the subclades of L226/S168 and L554.
By the far the largest subclade is L226. It is noted as marking Irish III haplotypes and maybe associated with
the Dalcassian clans. Two Z253* people have been found of Iberian descent.

DF21/S192 which as the subclades of Z246, P314.2 and L720 and S190.
DF21 is scattered across the Isles and Benelux and Norway. The largest DF21* cluster appears to be null425 Clan Colla. (EDIT: added Clan Colla comment.) Z246 appears to be the largest SNP marked subclade and includes DF25/S253 underneath it.
S190 is new so there are some unknowns but it is downstream of DF21 and has been found in Little Scots cluster people and it is downstream of DF21.

Z255 which has the large subclade of L159.2/S169.2.
L159.2 is associated with the Irish Sea/Leinster cluster.

L371 which is associated with the Wales I 17-14-10 cluster.

L144

 

[Mikewww]

Almost forgot. The other new news on R1b-L21/S145 is that M222, associated with NW Irish haplotypes, has been found to be downstream of DF23. There is a new major subclade of L21, and it is DF23. M222 is also very common in the lowlands of Scotland besides the north of Ireland. M222 has been found in Germany as well.

 

[Maciamo]

I have created a new phylogenetic tree of R1b. I couldn't place all the deep subclades and also excluded the private mutations.

 

[Knovas]

Looks good Maciamo. I see that in the Italo-Celtic Branch, you prefered not to name the subgroup in the Middle (Basque, Gascon-Catalan). You could use the word "Pyrenees" as reference, just a suggestion.

 

[razyn]

I see that in the Italo-Celtic Branch, you preferred not to name the subgroup in the Middle (Basque, Gascon-Catalan).

Might that have something to do with its not being exclusively Italo-Celtic? There is a rationale for leaving a subgroup off the chart (such as the North/South cluster of Z196) if its SNP has yet to be identified -- although that NS cluster is clearly not of Iberian origin, and is ancestral to M153. More problematic is omission of the parallel Nordic clade L238/S182, and several others, that don't appear to be Italo-Celtic, either. These little lacunae may make P312 still look sort of "Italo-Celtic," much as makeup can make a mature woman's face look sort of young. But the exercise doesn't prove any underlying truth about the theoretical construct. There may also be a little tendency to perceive these terms (including btw my use, for contrast, of "Nordic") as referring to modern ethnic or language groups that didn't yet exist in the early Bronze Age -- when P312/S116 was differentiating, and beginning to migrate (from the east).

[Added in edit: I withdraw the underlined passage above, as L238 has appeared since I posted this earlier today. Thank you, Maciamo. I don't mean to be a pest about this, and will be glad to supply the SNP name for the North/South cluster as soon as that is discovered. I have also added the word exclusively, in bold italic. Certainly, P312 has some Italo-Celtic components. And some that aren't.]

 

[zanipolo]

Might that have something to do with its not being Italo-Celtic? There is a rationale for leaving a subgroup off the chart (such as the North/South cluster of Z196) if its SNP has yet to be identified -- although that NS cluster is clearly not of Iberian origin, and is ancestral to M153. More problematic is omission of the parallel Nordic clade L238/S182, and several others, that don't appear to be Italo-Celtic, either. These little lacunae may make P312 still look sort of "Italo-Celtic," much as makeup can make a mature woman's face look sort of young. But the exercise doesn't prove any underlying truth about the theoretical construct. There may also be a little tendency to perceive these terms (including btw my use, for contrast, of "Nordic") as referring to modern ethnic or language groups that didn't yet exist in the early Bronze Age -- when P312/S116 was differentiating, and beginning to migrate (from the east).

Where does then, M126, M160 and M222 come into effect in the italo-celtic world. From forumdiversity site, these markers seems to be always prevelant in old north italian, swiss families

 

[Maciamo]

I have continued re-working the R1b page and created the page for haplogroup E1b1b.

 

[Maciamo]

Where does then, M126, M160 and M222 come into effect in the italo-celtic world. From forumdiversity site, these markers seems to be always prevelant in old north italian, swiss families

Aren't M160 and M126 supposed to be private mutations ?

 

[elghund]

Thanks for all your work, Maciamo. I didn't realize how much the Y-tree has been advancing until I saw that R1b tree. Those main articles for the various haplogroups are an excellent read. Presentation is good too.

I noticed my quadrant of the R1b tree is being filled in with Z and then a number. For whom is the Z named?

 

[Goga]

For whom is the Z named?

Maybe after Zorro?

 

[Mikewww]

I have created a new phylogenetic tree of R1b. I couldn't place all the deep subclades and also excluded the private mutations.

Thanks, for the update.

I noticed you are missing L165 (S68.) It has its own haplogroup designation from FTDNA and is on the ISOGG public SNP tree as well.

It fits under L176.2 as a peer to M167 (SRY2627).

EthnoAncestry considers it a "Norse Viking" marker.
http://www.ethnoancestry.com/S68.html

Here is the L165 project.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L165Project/default.aspx?section=yresults

 

[Maciamo]

Thanks, for the update.

I noticed you are missing L165 (S68.) It has its own haplogroup designation from FTDNA and is on the ISOGG public SNP tree as well.

It fits under L176.2 as a peer to M167 (SRY2627).

EthnoAncestry considers it a "Norse Viking" marker.
http://www.ethnoancestry.com/S68.html

Here is the L165 project.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L165Project/default.aspx?section=yresults

It was an oversight on my part. It's now corrected. However I doubt that L165/S68 is a Norse marker. Almost all the project members are Scottish. Even if some were to be found in Scandinavia (like L21), it would surely be Scots who moved there in Viking times.

 

[Taranis]

It was an oversight on my part. It's now corrected. However I doubt that L165/S68 is a Norse marker. Almost all the project members are Scottish. Even if some were to be found in Scandinavia (like L21), it would surely be Scots who moved there in Viking times.

We need iron age samples of YDNA from Scandinavia, especially Norway. One sort of gets the impression that it's currently seems to be en vogue to assume that there was a Celtic presence in Scandinavia during the Bronze Age or Iron Age... (which I find very questionable, to say the least).

One addition I'd like to suggest is that in the R1b subclade table, that you add "Chadic" with R1b-V88.

 

[razyn]

One sort of gets the impression that it's currently seems to be en vogue to assume that there was a Celtic presence in Scandinavia during the Bronze Age or Iron Age... (which I find very questionable, to say the least).

Others find the more questionable thing to be the assumption that the clades to which you refer (found farther north than one might expect) are, in fact, Celtic. Or Italo-Celtic. Anyway, that sort of thing is what we hope to resolve better by testing -- both ancient and modern samples. And Y-DNA isn't the only moving target; some of the archaeological, linguistic and other cultural assumptions may turn out not to be dated very correctly, and thus not to match the Y-DNA with which they are (still somewhat speculatively) associated.

I don't see much problem with painting first with a broad brush, and later filling in details (or even major revisions of the picture) as that becomes feasible. And whether or not one has philosophical objections to that process, it's what seems to be happening.