Immigration Islamic clouds are gathering over the EU

[Cimmerianbloke]

Both of you have valid points, but I think we need to think about immigration from a native point of view. Modern immigration has been planned in Europe to counterbalance the fertility rate and make sure working immigrants would participate to the economic development of their host country or, in plain language "pay our pension schemes". There has never been as many immigrants in the EU since its inception in 1947, so we normally should have no doubts about getting comfortable retirement checks. The reality is that most immigrants are not economically viable and cost the host country money through social welfare. Integration has been overlooked and the left parties brand the racist card every time incidents involving muslims and radical islamists. I am always appaled at the difference with chinese immigration, which do not pose any problem wherever they settle. In my opinion, if we need immigration for demographic purposes, we have to focus on quality immigration, like Switzerland and Canada have done in the last decades. Canada relaxed its immigration laws in the last few years and they now experience problems with islamists too. Now, if that is not a pattern...

 

[Mzungu mchagga]

@Antigone

I have long ago quitted talking to Anton, as there is no point in continuing a brainless conversation. I can only repeat myself that I hope he will fit the average life expectancy for males in Russia, so that he won't be haunted by Blacks, Jews and people of different sexual orientation for too long!

I fully agree with Cimmerianbloke's statement, as a way better regulation for immigration is needed. I agree that unbenevicial immigration groups have been invited to Europe, wrong measures have been taken for integration, while too less has been done for integrating those who where capable of it. But let us not blame it on any people! People are just behaving in the way the system pushes or allows them to, and there is no way of humiliating people and coming with racist theories!

 

[Antigone]

Hi Cimmerianbloke & MM,

Yes I agree with you both, the immigration policy in the EU has been a disaster. We all know that the capitalist system that we have in the west cannot thrive without a constant supply of labour and so immigration becomes necessary to meet the demand. However, the numbers and selection process must also be strictly controlled and dependant on the skills that each immigrant can bring to the country or particular community. And it is this that the powers that be in the EU have failed to completely understand, a policy of unregulated immigration with no cap on the numbers allowed to enter per year has lead to overcrowding, housing shortages and welfare systems stretched to the limit with the need to care for everyone. I think they would have been wise to look to the Australian model, where immigration is controlled and strictly regulated with a fixed yearly number of immigrants taken, depending on particular skills and where in the labour force those skills will be most beneficial.

Where Australia (for example) has gone wrong is in the implementation of a multiculturist policy, and this is one of the many areas that Anton fails so miserably to understand. Multiculturism is not immigration per se, multiculturism is a policy that has been adopted to ease the integration of immigrants into the wider community. It encouranges new immigrants to retain their original and full cultural practices and identities in their new home, it seemed ok as an idealogy originally but the practice of it has failed badly as it does not allow the new immigrant to integrate with their adopted enviroment. Multiculturism has not enabled there to be a middle ground for the indigenous population of a country to meet and fully accept the immigrant population and vise versa. I think that for integration to be a success the immigrant must try to leave the past behind at the door and fully adopt the cultural practices of the new country. Extremely difficult for the first generation immigrant I know, but the children especially must be raised in keeping with the customs of their new home.

 

[sparkey]

Multiculturalists often say that racism is peculiar only to the white population.

[citation needed]

Antigone, if you will immigrate to USA someday and your boss in the new workplace will be black then you can meet black racism to yourself easily... even if you have more mediterranean appearance than traditional white.

Black bosses discriminating against white workers isn't a problem I've ever heard of in this country. And in the cases when it happens, the same legal protections exist. I would not be worried if my boss was black. (Actually my boss is of a different culture than I am, and it has never been a problem.)

America isn't a good example of a multicultural society anyway, it's more of a mixed multicultural/melting pot society. There are other countries with less pressure for immigrants to join the predominant culture.

Antigone, do you happen to be a Jew?

You're coming dangerously close to implying that it would be a bad thing if she was, or at least stereotyping a certain ethnicity.

 

[Anton Bear's den]

Don't worry Mzungu, when I will die from old age you will meet already third decade in your cozy grave as a miserably murdered victim in a dark alley by fanatical bearded servant of God. Germany will meet the day of my death by traditional 5 time praying near The Brandenburg Gate and by mass executions of sheeps in courtyards & children's play areas.

You multiculturalists remind me ostriches which had put heads in dust but forgot that their asses still on open air! Ignoring the problem does not help to solve it.

 

[Antigone]

America isn't a good example of a multicultural society anyway, it's more of a mixed multicultural/melting pot society. There are other countries with less pressure for immigrants to join the predominant culture.

In the integration of it's immigrants America has been far more successful than those countries who adopted multiculturism. The US melting pot version is often held as a successful example in debates on the problems of multiculturism in Australia and the UK.

But wasted attempting to explain the finer differences to Anton, the rubbish on Youtube seem to be the only source for his information.

 

[Cimmerianbloke]

I am not convinced the US are such a heaven for immigrants. There is indeed less pressure to integrate the mainstream but I think wild capitalism favorizes the more focused individuals, that are exemples to follow for their community (the American Dream winners). On another hand, because the state is less interventionist, the poorest and the least integrated have no chapter and are rarely heard of. If the whole community would have to support the poorest, like in Europe, it would have triggered social tensions and the US would have gone bust a long time ago.

 

[Anton Bear's den]

[citation needed].

On a subconscious level, multiculturalist propaganda always imply precisely white racism, but somehow always ignore that people with different skin often sick by the same disease.

Black bosses discriminating against white workers isn't a problem I've ever heard of in this country. And in the cases when it happens, the same legal protections exist. I would not be worried if my boss was black. (Actually my boss is of a different culture than I am, and it has never been a problem.)].

You recognized that racism to whites exists in the America. Then the question arises, for which sake is need to import people with non-european culture to Europe? To feel on own skin what racial discrimination means? lol
The compensation from your link don't solve the problem, there will be costs in the court on lawyer, moral hazard and almost nobody will work in the same workplace after the trial with the racist boss.

America isn't a good example of a multicultural society anyway, it's more of a mixed multicultural/melting pot society. There are other countries with less pressure for immigrants to join the predominant culture.

Definitely, say it to local multiculturalists. They lost their connection with reality.
Do America is real "melting pot society"? Yes there many nations, yes there some interracial couples. But still only 1.5% Americans are interracial, is not it? And ethnic groups still prefer people of own race, whites rarely marry black people, asians - latino etc... And today U.S. Congress takes more and more laws to restrict immigration, today already is not enough just to give a birth to a baby on a plane which overflying over the United States for obtaining of U.S. citizenship like many Brazilians mothers did. I bet local forum multiculturalists don't know that while they with a serious mien talk about how immigration in Europe is nice the Obama creating kinda "Great Wall" on the border with Mexico LOL
America's "melting pot" gave first leak when masses of people from Asia started to arrive in USA, Chinatowns is direct proof, mini-states with own laws inside of state.

You're coming dangerously close to implying that it would be a bad thing if she was, or at least stereotyping a certain ethnicity.

I am just asked about nationality and she did not responded. We have saying here: "silence is sign of agreement", so probably she really from Israel. In any case, I am ok with Jews.
But don't forget that immigrant is an interested party. In jurisprudence, court will never take into account the statements of interested party as proof of anything.

 

[Anton Bear's den]

In the integration of it's immigrants America has been far more successful than those countries who adopted multiculturism. The US melting pot version is often held as a successful example in debates on the problems of multiculturism in Australia and the UK.

Antigone don't watch too much Hollywood movies, they are purified from the "daily delights" of melting pot. American "melting pot" started since genocide of indians, 6 dollars for indian adult scalp from the federal government, 3 dollars for indian kid. Add to it segregation, Ku Klux Klan, traditional southern "redneck" racism, ghetto and other feces which can be expected if the U.S. economy continue to weaken.

Yes I agree with you both, the immigration policy in the EU has been a disaster. We all know that the capitalist system that we have in the west cannot thrive without a constant supply of labour and so immigration becomes necessary to meet the demand.

Last time I checked, the average unemployment rate in the EU was about 10%. In Spain - 20-22%, Greece - 16,6%, mainly among young people.

However, the numbers and selection process must also be strictly controlled and dependant on the skills that each immigrant can bring to the country or particular community. And it is this that the powers that be in the EU have failed to completely understand, a policy of unregulated immigration with no cap on the numbers allowed to enter per year has lead to overcrowding, housing shortages and welfare systems stretched to the limit with the need to care for everyone. I think they would have been wise to look to the Australian model, where immigration is controlled and strictly regulated with a fixed yearly number of immigrants taken, depending on particular skills and where in the labour force those skills will be most beneficial.

Do not import the crowds of savages on welfare? That sounds racist, are you nazi Antigone?

Where Australia (for example) has gone wrong is in the implementation of a multiculturist policy, and this is one of the many areas that Anton fails so miserably to understand. Multiculturism is not immigration per se, multiculturism is a policy that has been adopted to ease the integration of immigrants into the wider community. It encouranges new immigrants to retain their original and full cultural practices and identities in their new home, it seemed ok as an idealogy originally but the practice of it has failed badly as it does not allow the new immigrant to integrate with their adopted enviroment. Multiculturism has not enabled there to be a middle ground for the indigenous population of a country to meet and fully accept the immigrant population and vise versa. I think that for integration to be a success the immigrant must try to leave the past behind at the door and fully adopt the cultural practices of the new country. Extremely difficult for the first generation immigrant I know, but the children especially must be raised in keeping with the customs of their new home.

Many Turks in Germany even in 3rd (!) generation do not talk German language.

You talking about immigration and integration but don't talk for which purpose all that is needed for overpopulated 500 million restricted area with limited resources and the employment problem.

 

[Antigone]

Antigone don't watch too much Hollywood movies, they are purified from the "daily delights" of melting pot. American "melting pot" started since genocide of indians, 6 dollars for indian adult scalp from the federal government, 3 dollars for indian kid. Add to it segregation, Ku Klux Klan, traditional southern "redneck" racism, ghetto and other feces which can be expected if the U.S. economy continue to weaken.

You are confusing explanation with personal opinion. Not surprising, it isn't the first time you've failed to understand what has been said here.

Last time I checked, the average unemployment rate in the EU was about 10%. In Spain - 20-22%, Greece - 16,6%, mainly among young people.

It is a pity you didn't bother to quote what I had written after that, then you would have had your answer. But thanks anyway, taking a person's words out of context in order to create an argument is always a sure sign that a person does not have an argument.

Do not import the crowds of savages on welfare? That sounds racist, are you nazi Antigone?.

Once again you completely fail to understand what it is you are reading.

Many Turks in Germany even in 3rd (!) generation do not talk German language.

Like you, having never been to Germany I wouldn't know, nor would I presume judge without first hand personal experience and posting selective crap from Youtube is not proof of anything. You seem to think you know an awful lot about places you have never been and all from watching Youtube! Brilliant logic there.

I am just asked about nationality and she did not responded. We have saying here: "silence is sign of agreement", so probably she really from Israel. In any case, I am ok with Jews.

You asked if I were a Jew, and last time I looked "Jew" is not a nationality. But we have a saying here also "no answer is a stern reply". In other words some things said are too stupid to deserve an answer.

You come on a foreign forum with your racist comments to denegrate foreigners and to foreigners and wonder why people disagree with you! You are not the sharpest knife in the drawer are you?

 

[Mzungu mchagga]

Many Turks in Germany even in 3rd (!) generation do not talk German language.

Bullshit!
There are surely plenty of other things to observe where Turks are not willing to integrate into German society, but I've never met a 3rd generation Turk who didn't speak German fluently. But of course you know things better, do you?

I am speechless when reading your posts (when asking Antigone if she is a Nazi, were you also asking for her nationality?), but there seems nothing much to do. We've already said plenty of times that we favour a controlled immigration policy with more effective integration programmes. But you keep on insisting on our wish to dissolve western society, and post pictures and videos of Blacks and Arabs depicted as savages. But anyways, farewell...

your ultra-liberal-Jewish-Nazi friend!

 

[Anton Bear's den]

Like you, having never been to Germany I wouldn't know, nor would I presume judge without first hand personal experience and posting selective crap from Youtube is not proof of anything. You seem to think you know an awful lot about places you have never been and all from watching Youtube! Brilliant logic there.

I read about situation with immigration in Germany in "Germany Abolishes Itself" book by Thilo Sarrazin. He is German politician (SPD) and former member of the Executive Board of the Deutsche Bundesbank.

You come on a foreign forum with your racist comments to denegrate foreigners and to foreigners and wonder why people disagree with you! You are not the sharpest knife in the drawer are you?

I am not racist and not multiculturalist. I believe in profit, rationalism & egoistic national interests while forum is full of ideologists & brainwashed hypocrites-sanctifiers (not rational "God's dandelions" which always wanna be "good guys", even when it can lead to disaster).
Theme of immigration is actual for almost all countries today. The perspective to be colonised by other people scares me, barbarians will destroy everything. Remember the end of the Roman Empire which was destroyed by flood of barbarian savages.
I have plenty of friends in Western & Northern Europe (natives to these places), they always complain me about "crazy multiculturalists at power" and describe a lot of details, so I know something what is hidden behind the multicultural propaganda curtain. Corresponded also with one ex-military in America and he responded with tons of criticism about America's "melting pot" as well.

Bullshit!
There are surely plenty of other things to observe where Turks are not willing to integrate into German society, but I've never met a 3rd generation Turk who didn't speak German fluently. But of course you know things better, do you?

Yes I know things better

Some quotes from "Germany Abolishes Itself":

"The whole political idiocy is in concealing and disguising, of the true" Ferdinand Lassalle

Since the Second World War were a few decades, which can be called very successful in economic and political life of Germany, which increased the pride of German diligence and industriousness of its citizens, for the continuous growth in living standards and welfare development. 4 large economic crisis - in 1966/67, 1974/75, 1981/82, 2008/09 no destroyed confidence in the strength of their own economic and social development model. Even the impact of globalization, changes in the global balance, pollution and fear of the consequences of climate change will not affect the optimism of the Germans. However, the German optimism and almost decades of serene success worsened the acuteness of vision threat of decomposition within the society.

Germany self-destruct? What an absurd fear many may think when they see this great country with its 80 million inhabitants, located in the heart of Europe, with its cities, industries, automobiles, trade and way of life ... The country is so due to its inhabitants, their lively wit and cultural traditions. Country without people would be only a geographical name. However, the Germans destroy themselves. The net fertility rate 0.7 or less kept for the past 40 years. This means that the generation of grandchildren is numerically less than half generations of grandfathers. The annual birth rate in Germany fell from 1.3 million from the sixties up to 650 000 in 2009. In line with this trend, which is firmly entrenched during four decades, after three generations in 90 years the birth rate in Germany will fall to 200-250 thousand a year. At the same time only half of that number of births will be the descendants of Germans who lived in the mid 60s. The Germans have self-destructed with it. Some see this as just punishment for the people who once gave birth to the SS. Others are comforted by the fact that the little nation is easier to survive and put in an example of Denmark with a population of 5 million inhabitants. Germany then would be in the future, such as Denmark, on a slightly larger area.

Over the past 45 years to talk about the demographic crisis was considered unreasonable. Those who disagreed with the majority which representing all in harmless light, those who was concerned, sooner or later had to admit that he was alone in his opinion, and often got accused of nationalism. In addition, public debates in Germany have a strange paradox: on the one hand, public debate arising from the desire to have fun and enjoy the scandal, on the other hand, in open disputes arise more often euphemisms of political terminology:

• In general, about the effects of low fertility, it was impossible to say if you do not want to fall under suspicion. Now, when the generation of the 60s are worried about their pensions, to talk about it has become possible, but it happened 40 years later than it should have happened.

• Negative speak about the integration of immigrants into society has always been taboo. And not to mention the fact that all people are different, namely, someone less or more intellectually gifted, some lazy, and some diligent, someone more or less morally strong, no one could do. Discussions on the topic of errors in government were also taboo.

• 90% of graduates one year of release might be taught in high school, but only 10% of them are able to study at the Faculty of Mathematics

• We as a people become more stupid, in another way and not say when women choose not to bear children.

• One person is responsible for his behavior, not society. "Those who do not learn - remains illiterate. Who eats a lot - it becomes fat. "These obvious truths are politically incorrect, cruel and even immoral. To say so is unwise, especially if you decide to pursue a career in politics. Assigned trend of politically correct discourse. All this has led to the fact that people just freed from liability for their actions, blaming circumstances:

• The reason that the child is unable to succeed in school - that his parents also have no education.

• In the case of children who are overweight, do not blame the parents with their careless attitude to education and social status of the family.

• If the children of single parents with an educational point of view creates difficulties, then responsible for this the society that does not provide sufficient support "loners." In this case one must ask why so many parents raising a child alone, and what measures are taken to avoid this.

• If the Turkish migrants in the third generation still can not properly speak German, this, of course, to blame the environment, hostile to the integration of immigrants into society. But why such difficulties are not observed with other migrants?

From a sociological point of view is correct, but the banal truth that everything in society is in relationship, developed a tendency - to blame everything for public relations and free themselves from responsibility for itself and own lives.

Political correctness turned out to be more important than questions about the structure and social management, which complicates the analysis of these problems and their treatment. From what I've encountered a wave of indignation, as a senator in the post of Finance at the Berlin Senate, when brought evidence that can be normal, healthy and varied eating based on the amount of the subsistence minimum. Being overweight as a result wrong food should not ascribe to the objective circumstances of life, against which the individual is unable to do anything, but as a result of his own behavior, for which each is responsible himself. Nobody wanted to hear about it, nor those who dealt with this problem, nor politically correct. I still could not understand, when many angry e-mails were sent and letters to the editorial office, but I do not understand why I was attacked when I mention anything in passing in an interview that wearing a sweater at home can help save energy costs, because we need to be less spend on heating.

In the management of political, economic and social development need to include what we want to achieve, as well as a realistic assessment of actual relationships. However, anyone who thought about society or would like to participate in its development, acting directly or indirectly in a normative context. If he ignores In this case human nature and the actual sociological and psychological terms, then he lives in a distorted world. The social engineers who come this way, create more harm than good things. Unfortunately, they do exist, and many of them are harmful to our society and darken our future prospects. So, too long not noticed that the aging and decline of the German population going with in qualitative changes in its composition.

In addition to reducing population, threatens us continuous growth of less stable, less intelligent and less skilled people. The book tells us that this is true, and what can be done about it. I lean in my book on empirical research, argues directly and without frills. It is, above all, the clarity and precision, so the picture is so strong, not complicated and not blurred. I refused to use "word garland" and tried to be objective.

In economic terms, Germany is at the end of the heyday, which began in 1950 and is now over. The real income of the individual worker does not grow more than 30 years at the latest after 10 years it will fall, and it will be because of the demographic problem.
Such predictions do not seem to fit in the current German economy and to many other good news that we are encouraged daily. But all this is nothing when we deplete the resources of the future well-being, and how we behave, both quantitatively and qualitatively:
• quantitative - for 45 years, each new generation about one-third less than the previous one, at that time, as life expectancy increases,
• quality - the ability to learn and intelligence babies get worse, wastes away mentality.
...

I am speechless when reading your posts (when asking Antigone if she is a Nazi, were you also asking for her nationality?), but there seems nothing much to do. We've already said plenty of times that we favour a controlled immigration policy with more effective integration programmes. But you keep on insisting on our wish to dissolve western society, and post pictures and videos of Blacks and Arabs depicted as savages. But anyways, farewell...

your ultra-liberal-Jewish-Nazi friend!

That forum definitely is needed in different points of view which differ from multiculturalist agenda. Even more, that forum in general need more opinions, when I open main page of EU forum the main theme of day always looks like: "who have more blonde hairs the Spanish or Italians?" or endless disputes about DNA. While the political part in a state of lethargy and stagnation. So no need to criticize me if I just stirred up local beehive. And stop to minus my posts, that's antidemocratic style of repression against dissidents like Inquisition and the dictatorships of the twentieth century did!

 

[Mzungu mchagga]

Thilo Sarrazin suggests a controlled immigration policy, based on skills and abilities, in opposite to the current unlimited immigration policy, which is nothing else than what I am in favour of. But the part you posted doesn't mention that.

When it says 3rd generation Turks can't speak German properly, it depends on what you define properly. At least they all speak German fluently. Of course a large proportion belongs to the lower class with low education. But Germans of that social class don't speak German properly either! Which Sarrazin also mentioned!

 

[Anton Bear's den]

Thilo Sarrazin suggests a controlled immigration policy, based on skills and abilities, in opposite to the current unlimited immigration policy, which is nothing else than what I am in favour of. But the part you posted doesn't mention that.

When it says 3rd generation Turks can't speak German properly, it depends on what you define properly. At least they all speak German fluently. Of course a large proportion belongs to the lower class with low education. But Germans of that social class don't speak German properly either! Which Sarrazin also mentioned!

Give me a good example of "controlled immigration policy".
I recommend you to ask Polish Canuck lebrok or any American about multi-culti in their ex-colonies. One thing is Hollywood screen the other is reality. As I know people live there highly segregated, mainly in own mini enclaves, it's can be indifferent forms like white middle class zones, ghettos, reservations... Americans with which I talked said me that whites mainly don't wanna date Black people, Black don't wanna date Whites, Hispanics, Asians ... and vice versa (in general of course). Entire neighborhoods often do not speak English at all, interracial racism never disappeared, a lot of criminal groups on a national basis, add to it that officially only 1% of USA population consider themselves as multicultural (it's after 200 years of open borders policy).
Sounds like a heaven? Ok, Germany is your country, not mine.

 

[Yetos]

Thilo Sarrazin suggests a controlled immigration policy, based on skills and abilities, in opposite to the current unlimited immigration policy, which is nothing else than what I am in favour of. But the part you posted doesn't mention that.

When it says 3rd generation Turks can't speak German properly, it depends on what you define properly. At least they all speak German fluently. Of course a large proportion belongs to the lower class with low education. But Germans of that social class don't speak German properly either! Which Sarrazin also mentioned!

do you know the EU policy forced Greece to give 2 500 000 Green cards (allow work and live)
which after 5 years becomes EU citizens?
do you know that already 500 000 non Greeks have Greek id and are travelling Europe?
do you know that Illegal migration in Greece Italy Spain is more than million every year?
Search the Frontex Data,
according Eu laws and policy in 2012 Greece is forced to give 500 000 citizen id cards, and until 2015 will be 2 500 000, which their next step is to run to central Europe to work

until 2015 an estimation of 12 000 000 non IE is about to be EU

every day pass in Greece 350 immigrants while about 280 of them are captured but only 10 go back to their countries.

every year about 80 000 pass in Italy and about 60 000 -120 000 in Spain