Immigration Discrimination in France (vs Japan)

[Maciamo]

Delinquency and discrimmination

BBC News : Anger grips Paris riot suburb

Across the road from the market, 57-year-old Boubaker acknowledges that delinquency is a problem.

He often chides small groups of youths hanging around outside his flat. He agrees the police have a job to do, but says that often they are too aggressive and pick on the wrong targets.

His 19-year-old son is regularly stopped when out with friends - especially if they are black - by police who demand to see their ID.

"Each time he goes out he has to prove who he is," says Boubaker, "even right outside his own front door."
...
"It's the way they stop and search people, kneeing them between the legs as they put them up against the wall. They get students mixed up with the worst offenders, yet these young people have done nothing wrong."

This police discrimination somehow reminds me of Tokyo. The difference is that statistics show that Westerners in Japan in general are about 15x less likely to commit crimes than Japanese nationals. On the contrary, a part of African immigrants (either Arab or Black) in France do cause a lot of trouble, as these events have shown.

The question of minorities integration

Boubaker is Tunisian and has lived in France for 30 years. His eldest son is 29 but still lives at home because he cannot find affordable housing.

All four children are in work but their friends - again especially those who are black - have to make "hundreds" of job applications before getting an interview.

Paris is not really the most affordable city to live in Europe, so I wonder why poor immigrants cling to it.

The government' response

Nicolas Sarkozy has talked of the need to provide young people with job opportunities.

The interior minister is also an advocate of positive discrimination for ethnic minorities, and of voting rights for foreigners.

What I find paradoxal, when comparing foreigners' conditions in France and Japan, is that immigrants in France are "rewarded" for causing troube by obtaining laws preventing discrimination and even voting rights (meaning for those that haven't already got French citizenship). Yet, the comparatively well-behaved foreigners in Japan also do get checked by the police (I was asked twice for my alien registration card for no reason, just 2min walk from my house), and do not enjoy anti-discrimination laws (especially about real estate), no voting rights. That is true even for permanent residents like me.

Does it have to take 180 cars torched in Tokyo to get the Japanese government moving to prevent discriminatory police checks and give long-term foreign residents voting rights ? I am pretty sure that if the same happened in Japan, all the culprits would either be expelled of Japan for life (maybe even lose their citizenship if naturalised), or be jailed for at least 10 years. Either solution would be unthinkable in France for the current events. I am pretty sure that the cuplrits will be out in a few days, or at worst a few months.

BBC News : French Muslims face job discrimination

Sadek, 31, has a secondary school education and aspires to something better. But he knows his options are limited: "With a name like mine, I can't have a sales job."

Telemarketing could be a possibility - his Arab roots safely hidden from view. Of course, he would have to work under an assumed name.
...
They may be French on paper - but they know that Ali and Rachid are much less likely to get ahead than Alain or Richard.

The Japanese government obliges people taking on Japanese nationality to "Japanicise" their name (e.g. David Aldwinkle became Arudo Debito). Likewise, many of the immigrants who become naturalised American in the USA decide to change their name in order to adapt. Many Americans of German origins (and they are the most numerous of any ethnic origin in the States) changed their names to a more English-sounding one during WWI and WWII to avoid discrimination. Most US-born children of immigrants get English first names (even the Japanese, so you get names like Richard Matsumoto or Alice Nakata).

I only find it natural that the French citizens of foreign origin should do the same. In the examples above, it would be very easy to change "Ali" into "Alain". I personally adapt the pronuciation of my name to the language of the country where I am or the language I use to communciate with someone. I expect someone called "Peter" in English to call themselves "Pierre" in French, "Pedro" in Spanish, or "Peter" with a different pronuciation in German. If they don't, I will call them like that anyway if we use one of these languages to communicate. So when I was studying Spanish in Spain, a Swiss guy whose name was "Peter" was called "Pedro" by the rest of the class. Most people adapted their name to the local language whenever possible (it's particularily easy in Europe). In Japan, when I am asked for my name, I always say it like it is pronouced in "Katakana". It's so different from the original pronuciation that my own family wouldn't be able to recognise it. But if I said it normally, the Japanese wouldn't understand.

Conclusion, I think that French of North African origin who keep Arabic names are not really trying to adapt to their country of adoption. I would only accept that kind of behaviour from a tourist, never from a resident, and even less from someone who has got the country's citizenship.

Racial discrimination is banned in France. But a quick look at the people working in any shop or office suggests the practice is widespread.

The impression is confirmed by official statistics.

Unemployment among people of French origin is 9.2%. Among those of foreign origin, the figure is 14% - even after adjusting for educational qualifications.

What they failed to consider, is that most of the French of African origin have a very different age structure than the French of European decent. People from immigrant families have much bigger families, with in average much younger people. I find that 14% is not that high when we know that unemployment in France is the highest among young people. In fact, youth (15-24) unemployment (i.e. people looking for a job who can't find one, which excludes students) in France has always been between 20 and 28% in the last 10 years (OECD stats). Then, we should not confuse the unemployment statistics of "foreigners" (immigrants) with that of "French citizen of foreign origin". Finally, not all immigrants/foreigners in France belong to racial minorities. Almost half of the foreigners in France nowadays come from other European countries (esp. Italy and Spain). I wish I could find detailed unemployment statistics by age group and qualifications for all people (French or foreign) of Arabic and Black descent compared to European French. That is the only way of determining whether job discrimination is such a big problem in France or not.

"Doors are closed when you are an Arab," says Yazid Sabeg, a businessman and writer.

For many young people, the first time they notice the closed door is when they try to go clubbing.

"The first time the guy at the entrance says: 'You're not coming in', you accept it," says Nadir Dendoune, a journalist from Saint-Denis.

"But after two or three times, you go home carrying a bag of hatred on your shoulders."

This is quite similar to the way I feel about discrimination in Japan. According to the survey on this site (see Have you encountered discrimination or prejudices in Japan ?), 75% of the respondants who have lived in Japan and did not stay in "gaijin houses" or didn't get their housing from their company, were refused accommodation because they were foreigners. I find it interesting, because Westerners in Japan are usually better perceived than economic migrants, and don't have much the reputation of trouble makers, but face about the same discrimination as Mulsim economic migrants known for making trouble in France. In other words, other Westerners, or Japanese or Koreans in France almost never get discriminated, yet respectable Westerners in Japan, with good jobs, married to a Japanese, etc. still get regularily discriminated.

I wonder if the very small number of Arabs and Black Africans in Japan is due to the fact that it is much more difficult for them to get a visa, and almost impossible to find a regular job and stay at regular accommodation in Japan. Considering this, it seems that discrimation in Japan is much stronger than in France. It's just that France has much more economic migrants, because Japan tries much harder to stop them from coming (which reflects well this negative attitude toward foreigners).

 

[Ma Cherie]

Since I never been to Japan or France, I've only read articles and journals on the issues of discrimination in both nations. I still think it's a matter of how countries choose to deal with issues such as discrimination of foreigners. I think the reason why discriminations in Japan seems much stronger is because perhaps Japanese society isn't going (or possibly unwilling) to acknowledge discrimination issues. But what if Japan had to deal with these riots with discrimination issues, maybe then they would pay attention. :?

 

[Templar]

Maciamo, what is the crime rate of Moroccan immigrants?

 

[Maciamo]

Maciamo, what is the crime rate of Moroccan immigrants?

If only I could find the statistics. Many European countries refuse to publish crime statistics by nationality, religion or ethnic group. In France it is even illegal for anyone to make any kind of statistic related to race (even something as benign and useless as, say, the number of stamp collectors by ethnic group). Minorities are so well protected it's no wonder they all come to France and Belgium.

 

[Cimmerianbloke]

In Belgium, around 2 thirds of the meals served in state jails are halal. It is the only indication of the proportion of muslim inmates, as keeping track of the jail population origins is not a priority of the government. In fact, if the real figures and statistics of the immigration crime rate would be public, a lot of governments in Europe would feel the heat.
As for the difference between Japan and Europe when it comes to discrimination, we should keep in mind that Japan as a society is more close-knit than Europe. Therefore the relative intolerance towards foreign influences and foreigners, and even Japaneses who lived abroad for some time seem to be ostracized. I once learned Japanese and read a lot about the Japanese society, and it seems there is little room for the individual, the society tends to focus on the mass as one single entity, and the structures of the layers inside the society make it hard to move if you are not groomed or born into the system. It will be fascinating to see how Japan will cope in the coming years with the boom of eldering people. On another hand, Japan is a bit of an extreme case, being the only country on Earth that is a political entity, a culture and a language all at once. Not a good place to advocate variety, even though I personally think there is nothing wrong to take measures to protect your culture and lifestyle from foreign invasion.

 

[Asturrulumbo]

Delinquency and discrimmination

BBC News : Anger grips Paris riot suburb



This police discrimination somehow reminds me of Tokyo. The difference is that statistics show that Westerners in Japan in general are about 15x less likely to commit crimes than Japanese nationals. On the contrary, a part of African immigrants (either Arab or Black) in France do cause a lot of trouble, as these events have shown.

The question of minorities integration



Paris is not really the most affordable city to live in Europe, so I wonder why poor immigrants cling to it.

The government' response



What I find paradoxal, when comparing foreigners' conditions in France and Japan, is that immigrants in France are "rewarded" for causing troube by obtaining laws preventing discrimination and even voting rights (meaning for those that haven't already got French citizenship). Yet, the comparatively well-behaved foreigners in Japan also do get checked by the police (I was asked twice for my alien registration card for no reason, just 2min walk from my house), and do not enjoy anti-discrimination laws (especially about real estate), no voting rights. That is true even for permanent residents like me.

Does it have to take 180 cars torched in Tokyo to get the Japanese government moving to prevent discriminatory police checks and give long-term foreign residents voting rights ? I am pretty sure that if the same happened in Japan, all the culprits would either be expelled of Japan for life (maybe even lose their citizenship if naturalised), or be jailed for at least 10 years. Either solution would be unthinkable in France for the current events. I am pretty sure that the cuplrits will be out in a few days, or at worst a few months.

BBC News : French Muslims face job discrimination



The Japanese government obliges people taking on Japanese nationality to "Japanicise" their name (e.g. David Aldwinkle became Arudo Debito). Likewise, many of the immigrants who become naturalised American in the USA decide to change their name in order to adapt. Many Americans of German origins (and they are the most numerous of any ethnic origin in the States) changed their names to a more English-sounding one during WWI and WWII to avoid discrimination. Most US-born children of immigrants get English first names (even the Japanese, so you get names like Richard Matsumoto or Alice Nakata).

I only find it natural that the French citizens of foreign origin should do the same. In the examples above, it would be very easy to change "Ali" into "Alain". I personally adapt the pronuciation of my name to the language of the country where I am or the language I use to communciate with someone. I expect someone called "Peter" in English to call themselves "Pierre" in French, "Pedro" in Spanish, or "Peter" with a different pronuciation in German. If they don't, I will call them like that anyway if we use one of these languages to communicate. So when I was studying Spanish in Spain, a Swiss guy whose name was "Peter" was called "Pedro" by the rest of the class. Most people adapted their name to the local language whenever possible (it's particularily easy in Europe). In Japan, when I am asked for my name, I always say it like it is pronouced in "Katakana". It's so different from the original pronuciation that my own family wouldn't be able to recognise it. But if I said it normally, the Japanese wouldn't understand.

Conclusion, I think that French of North African origin who keep Arabic names are not really trying to adapt to their country of adoption. I would only accept that kind of behaviour from a tourist, never from a resident, and even less from someone who has got the country's citizenship.



What they failed to consider, is that most of the French of African origin have a very different age structure than the French of European decent. People from immigrant families have much bigger families, with in average much younger people. I find that 14% is not that high when we know that unemployment in France is the highest among young people. In fact, youth (15-24) unemployment (i.e. people looking for a job who can't find one, which excludes students) in France has always been between 20 and 28% in the last 10 years (OECD stats). Then, we should not confuse the unemployment statistics of "foreigners" (immigrants) with that of "French citizen of foreign origin". Finally, not all immigrants/foreigners in France belong to racial minorities. Almost half of the foreigners in France nowadays come from other European countries (esp. Italy and Spain). I wish I could find detailed unemployment statistics by age group and qualifications for all people (French or foreign) of Arabic and Black descent compared to European French. That is the only way of determining whether job discrimination is such a big problem in France or not.



This is quite similar to the way I feel about discrimination in Japan. According to the survey on this site (see Have you encountered discrimination or prejudices in Japan ?), 75% of the respondants who have lived in Japan and did not stay in "gaijin houses" or didn't get their housing from their company, were refused accommodation because they were foreigners. I find it interesting, because Westerners in Japan are usually better perceived than economic migrants, and don't have much the reputation of trouble makers, but face about the same discrimination as Mulsim economic migrants known for making trouble in France. In other words, other Westerners, or Japanese or Koreans in France almost never get discriminated, yet respectable Westerners in Japan, with good jobs, married to a Japanese, etc. still get regularily discriminated.

I wonder if the very small number of Arabs and Black Africans in Japan is due to the fact that it is much more difficult for them to get a visa, and almost impossible to find a regular job and stay at regular accommodation in Japan. Considering this, it seems that discrimation in Japan is much stronger than in France. It's just that France has much more economic migrants, because Japan tries much harder to stop them from coming (which reflects well this negative attitude toward foreigners).

But, Maciamo, are you not forgetting that one of the main reasons there are so many North African immigrants in France is its colonial history and the state of affairs it left its ex-colonies? Also, I find it logical that they are clinging to their ethnic and cultural roots because they are finding it difficult to integrate in French society. And, after all, after decades of cultural imperialism in the French colonies, I think another reason for the immigrants not acculturating is an attempt towards a cultural identity.
Of course, that is merely my view, and of course I don't live there...

 

[Maciamo]

But, Maciamo, are you not forgetting that one of the main reasons there are so many North African immigrants in France is its colonial history and the state of affairs it left its ex-colonies? Also, I find it logical that they are clinging to their ethnic and cultural roots because they are finding it difficult to integrate in French society. And, after all, after decades of cultural imperialism in the French colonies, I think another reason for the immigrants not acculturating is an attempt towards a cultural identity.
Of course, that is merely my view, and of course I don't live there...

Just compare Moroccan and Vietnamese immigrants to France, who both came from former French colonies. Despite Moroccans belonging to a Mediterranean culture with some shared history and culture with France since the Palaeolithic (and 500 years of common history during the Roman Empire), Moroccans have a much harder time to adapt to French culture (or European one in general, where ever they go) than the Vietnamese. Yet, Vietnam has absolutely nothing in term of shared culture or history with Europe, and the French colonial rule was not in any way kinder or more benevolent in Vietnam. So how do you explain that the Vietnamese community in France almost never causes any problem and is generally well adapted and integrated, while Moroccans are not ? It's all a matter of will. Moroccans don't want to adapt. I know from having heard it directly from the mouth of some Moroccans that their deepest desire, like many Muslims, is that eventually Europe will convert to Islam, or that they will end up outnumbering Europeans through higher fertility rate. With that kind of mindset it's no wonder that they don't even try to integrate. It is a terrible mistake for Europeans to think that holy wars belong to the past in the minds of many Muslims around the world. It's not because Europeans have turned that page of history that others have. Never try to understand other cultures and religions based on your own beliefs and way of thinking.

 

[Maciamo]

In Belgium, around 2 thirds of the meals served in state jails are halal. It is the only indication of the proportion of muslim inmates, as keeping track of the jail population origins is not a priority of the government. In fact, if the real figures and statistics of the immigration crime rate would be public, a lot of governments in Europe would feel the heat.
As for the difference between Japan and Europe when it comes to discrimination, we should keep in mind that Japan as a society is more close-knit than Europe. Therefore the relative intolerance towards foreign influences and foreigners, and even Japaneses who lived abroad for some time seem to be ostracized. I once learned Japanese and read a lot about the Japanese society, and it seems there is little room for the individual, the society tends to focus on the mass as one single entity, and the structures of the layers inside the society make it hard to move if you are not groomed or born into the system. It will be fascinating to see how Japan will cope in the coming years with the boom of eldering people. On another hand, Japan is a bit of an extreme case, being the only country on Earth that is a political entity, a culture and a language all at once. Not a good place to advocate variety, even though I personally think there is nothing wrong to take measures to protect your culture and lifestyle from foreign invasion.

I agree with everything you wrote, except a little detail : I don't think that Japan is the only country on Earth that is a political entity, a culture and a language all at once. It is the case of countries like Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, if you set aside the tribal minorities in the northern mountains (Japan also has its ethnic minorities in the Ainus and Okinawans). It was the case of Korea before the split in north and south (and undoubtedly will be the case again).

 

[Maciamo]

I just want to add something about what I posted yesterday regarding statistics in France.

France banned all statistics based on race in the aftermath of WWII when racism was blamed for the war and the Holocaust, and the French government couldn't escape a deep feeling of guilt for having collaborated so closely with Nazi Germany and sending tens of thousands of Jews to concentration camps. It has to be remembered that Vichy France was the only country in Europe that was military defeated by Nazi Germany but allowed to remain independent if it became an ally of Germany. That essentially placed Vichy France into the ranks of the Axis Powers, alongside Germany, Italy and Japan. Other countries were either occupied and directly administered by Germany (including the rest of France, the Benelux, Denmark, Norway, Poland, and most of Central and Southeast Europe) or were tacitly favourable to Hitler's regime (Switzerland, Sweden, Ireland, Spain) without being officially called allies. Vichy France was a fascist regime directly allied to Nazi Germany, and that is why the post-WWII French government felt compelled to pass new laws to protect ethnic minorities out of a profound sense of guilt, very much like the guilt felt by many Germans after the war.

Ironically, had Nazi Germany held proper statistics on crime based on race/ethnicity or religion, they could not have incriminated the Jews, since they were more often than not model citizens, richer and better educated than average, and consequently also had lower crime rates than the German average. So banning racial profiling in crime statistics was and still would be detrimental to the Jewish community. I am not sure if the French government knew that perfectly well and introduced the law anyway under false pretence that it would prevent discrimination against the Jews, when in fact such statistics would clear them of any blame they were falsely accused of. Either the French were ignorant/mistaken or they were snidely hypocritical.