What do folks from the Ibr. Peninsula and the Brit. Isles think about haplogroup R1b?

[Goga]

Recent discoveries on Botai culture suggest that Botai culture settlements in the Akmola Province of Kazakhstan are the location of the earliest domestication of the horse.

According to others first domesticated the horse in modern Bashkortostan representatives Agidelevskaya culture.

I believe that the first domesticated horses 7-9 thousand years ago, representatives of haplogroup R1b, who lived in the Southern Urals and adjacent plains. Domestication of the horse led to the emergence of lactose tolerance gene. As well as possible carriers of R1b spread around the world, to conquer Europe.

"Horses Domesticated 9,000 Years Ago in Saudi Arabia

Previous estimates had dated horse domestication back only 5,000 years."



http://news.discovery.com/animals/horse-domestication-saudi-arabia-110825.html

 

[Bahadir]

In Saudi Arabia have been found only horse figurines. This is unconvincing evidence of taming horses. After all, no one comes to mind is to talk about taming a mammoth on the basis of figurinesof mammoths. In Botai had found traces of kumis on the dishes, bridle and other more compelling evidence.

 

[Pi gman]

In my opinion it is entirely possible that some of the Phoenicians were in fact R1b1a. They were a mixed group, however, because Phoenicians were a conglomerate of city states and had people of different religions. Because of their trading relationships with Greece Phoenicians became Greek around 2100 years ago. One example of this is where the Nobles of Phokia and Smyrna relocated with members of these cities to start the city of Marseilles and other trading ports and over time they became French. There is an excellent y-DNA study of this but I cannot post the link. Google:
[h=1]The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica[/h]and it should take you there.

 

[zanipolo]

In my opinion it is entirely possible that some of the Phoenicians were in fact R1b1a. They were a mixed group, however, because Phoenicians were a conglomerate of city states and had people of different religions. Because of their trading relationships with Greece Phoenicians became Greek around 2100 years ago. One example of this is where the Nobles of Phokia and Smyrna relocated with members of these cities to start the city of Marseilles and other trading ports and over time they became French. There is an excellent y-DNA study of this but I cannot post the link. Google:
The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica

and it should take you there.

this is good

http://www.cell.com/AJHG/fulltext/S0002-9297(08)00547-8

 

[Pi gman]

Apologies to everyone, I meant to post my previous message as a reply to this post:

Option 1: It's from the Iberian Peninsula or the Isles and after the ice age R1b migrated into other parts of Europe and later even into the Mesopotamia through the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

Option 2: It's from the Iberian Peninsula or the Isles and after the ice age R1b migrated into other parts of Europe and later even into the Nile Delta and the Fertile Crescent (the Mesopotamia + Levant) through the eastern part of the Mediterranean coast. And then moved up to the Pontic-Caspian steppe from West Asia.

Option 3: It's from the Pontic-Caspian steppe and later migrated into the Fertile Crescent and Europe.

Option 4: It's from Anatolia / West Asia and later migrated into Europe through the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

Option 5: It's from Anatolia / West Asia and later migrated into Europe through the Fertile Crescent and the Eastern part of the Mediterranean coast.


Since the majority of this haplogroup is around the Iberian Peninsula & and the British Isles and when we talk about R1b we mostly talk about the origin of these folks. I'm interested very much in what they think about themselves!


Also,

Is it possible that Phoenicians were actually R1b folks and didn't belong to J2 haplogroup?

Is it possible that the ancient Sumerians were R1b folks from the Pontic-Caspian steppe?

 

[Ziober]

pinturas rupestres en cuenca:

The horse domestication in Iberia, independent:

http://www.horseshowcentral.com/horse_breeds/iberian_horse/333/1

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0018194

http://www.soscaballolosino.com/Entrada-razasautoctonas/Entrada caballos/Pinturas ecuestres.htm

 

[Pi gman]

So these article say that the horse was domesticated in Iberia before they were in France?

 

[LeBrok]

pinturas rupestres en cuenca:




The horse domestication in Iberia, independent:

http://www.horseshowcentral.com/horse_breeds/iberian_horse/333/1

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0018194

http://www.soscaballolosino.com/Entrada-razasautoctonas/Entrada caballos/Pinturas ecuestres.htm

I'm sorry, but these links don't show independent domestication in Iberia. It just show domestication of some small horses, with only possibility of being independent.

Even in these articles they mention that only MtDNA is local. All Y DNA point to Ukrainian steppe as origin of all modern horses.
It means that East European steppe stallions were introduced to local mares in all Europe and Asia.

 

[Ziober]

I think so Pi gman. Lebrok, there are two diferent horse races one ponny and the equus ferus. In the second link says that in modern lines there are maternal lineages from iberian horses, but it doesn't mean that always was that way. As the sows works for ride on, the boars the same, or what do you think?

 

[Pi gman]

Yes, the cave drawings show very clearly that the horses were put in a fenced in area and they were harnessed for riding and even for pulling things. Maybe I missed it but why can't they just carbon date the dyes used in the colors of the cave paintings?

 

[Ziober]

I'm wondering myself the same Pi gman.

 

[Pi gman]

The reason I was lead to this site: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3068964/?tool=pubmed [h=1]The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean[/h] is that I have several y-DNA matches in Smyrna and Phocaea, Greece. Here are the results of my comparison to this study:

The Y-DNA of Curtis Pigman was compared to a dataset of 2 populations in 1 journal using 6 Y-DNA STR markers. The closest matches in a set of 2 populations are listed in the table below:
[TABLE="class: tblBarGraph"]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"] Smyma, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: right"]

RMI: 236.67[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"] Phocaea, Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: right"]

RMI: 163.33[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Curtis Pigman's Y-DNA STR markers were compared to the following 2 populations:
[TABLE="class: tblOrder02 br25"]
[TR]
[TH]Population[/TH]
[TH]Continent[/TH]
[TH]Category[/TH]
[TH]Size (N)[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Smyma, Greece[/TD]
[TD]Europe[/TD]
[TD]Indigenous[/TD]
[TD]45[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Phocaea, Greece[/TD]
[TD]Europe[/TD]
[TD]Indigenous[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Appendix 4: Raw Comparison Results
The results of this comparison are based on the following raw analysis data:
Matches at a Genetic Distance of 1:
[TABLE="class: tblOrder02"]
[TR]
[TH]Population Set[/TH]
[TH]# Matches[/TH]
[TH]Population Size[/TH]
[TH]Match %[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Smyma, Greece[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]45[/TD]
[TD]2.22%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Matches at a Genetic Distance of 2:
[TABLE="class: tblOrder02"]
[TR]
[TH]Population Set[/TH]
[TH]# Matches[/TH]
[TH]Population Size[/TH]
[TH]Match %[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Smyma, Greece[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]45[/TD]
[TD]13.33%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Phocaea, Greece[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]7.69%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Matches at a Genetic Distance of 3:
[TABLE="class: tblOrder02"]
[TR]
[TH]Population Set[/TH]
[TH]# Matches[/TH]
[TH]Population Size[/TH]
[TH]Match %[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Phocaea, Greece[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]19.23%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Smyma, Greece[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]45[/TD]
[TD]11.11%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Matches at a Genetic Distance of 4:
[TABLE="class: tblOrder02"]
[TR]
[TH]Population Set[/TH]
[TH]# Matches[/TH]
[TH]Population Size[/TH]
[TH]Match %[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Phocaea, Greece[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]11.54%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Smyma, Greece[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]45[/TD]
[TD]6.67%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

So this could make a case at least for my R1b L2+Z49+and Z142+ being Ionian Greek/French. I know it is not proof but it is a hint.

Apologies to everyone, I meant to post my previous message as a reply to this post:

this is good

http://www.cell.com/AJHG/fulltext/S0002-9297(08)00547-8

 

[AdeoF]

I voted for the 1st one but I can see most people are saying that it came from Turkey and into Europe. But yea the Celts did take over some parts of Anatolia.

 

[RobertColumbia]

...
Is it possible that the ancient Sumerians were R1b folks from the Pontic-Caspian steppe?

Doubtful. If this were the case, you would expect to see linguistic and/or cultural ties between Iraq, the steppe, and western Europe. What we do see is that the Sumerian language cannot be identified as related with any other language, and the linguistic and cultural elements that we do have that are derived from or at least have a parallel in Sumeria (e.g. the Deluge) are filtered through a Semitic source (Babylonian and/or Hebrew).

 

[Ed the Red]

Both the Irish/Scottish gaels, know they were in Spain before they continued to Ireland. They were the last influx of Celtic invaders that I conclude were Cimmerian's originally

 

[Ed the Red]

The presence of Galatia in Anatolia from what I've come to learn can probably be attested to Cimmerians attacking the hittite empire and settling there. In fact It could have been the Cimmerian's that were the cause of the demise of the Hittite empire. And from there to Spain, and then to Ireland.

 

[Ed the Red]

The influx of Celts into Iberia created celtiberians

 

[Ed the Red]

The predominantly R1b branch of the Indo Europeans were cimmerians and then Celts.

 

[ROS]

The problem in Iberia is not only that there are several Celtic languages some Q-Celts quite old and with empirical evidence of their existence, but that there is even a pre-celtic language, such as Lusitanian, also with empirical evidence of its existence. The Iberian peninsula has these high percentages of r1b and H1 ?, the theories exposed so far do not convince me too much.

I voted Anatolia steppe, but I think there was another migration through Anatolia (at least we have proof that it was spoken Indo-European) Mediterranean, Greece, Italy, peninsula Iberia, separating the areas of influence of R1A and languages satem and R1B and languages Centum, why of course this dissociation between R1A and R1B in Europe?This separation between R1B and R1A in Europe can not be explained until two distinct migrations from anatolia are thought of.

 

[Elizabeth60]

Both the Irish/Scottish gaels, know they were in Spain before they continued to Ireland. They were the last influx of Celtic invaders that I conclude were Cimmerian's originally

The problem with that though is that R1b in Irish/Scots is predominantly L21 and in Spain it is DF27. I think most people now know that Bell Beakers are primarily the culprits that spread R1b.