New study on Algerian Y-DNA & mtDNA (+ other Maghreban populations)

Maciamo

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Bekada et al. published a new study looking at the Y-chromosomes of 156 Algerian men as well as 240 mitochondrial lineages. This is not much, but the study also provides data from other studies with substantial sample sizes for Morocco (n=760) and Tunisia (n=601).

The results are not very surprising. Haplogroup E1b1b makes up 64% (+6% of other E) of male lineages, similar to Tunisia. J1 is at 21.8%, which is the highest in the Maghreb, while in comparison J2 is a meagre 5%, but also the highest for the Maghreb.

The moderate presence (2.5%) of the Italo-Celtic R1b-U152, which is most probably Roman in this case, is confirmed. This is consistent with the results from the FTDNA Maghreb Project.

Let's note the 2.5% of R1b-U198 + R1b-P312. Too bad they didn't separate the two, because if this is really U198 it would be the first confirmed presence of Germanic R1b in North Africa. I don't understand why they list U198 with P312 instead of U106 though. It must be a mistake.

R1a is at 0.64%, but as we do not know the subclade it is impossible to say if it is Germanic or Middle Eastern. The few R1a tested in the FTDNA Maghreb Project are all R1a-Z93, so Phoenician or Arabic, or possibly Alanic, but definitely not Germanic.

Unfortunately the study uses a very outdated phylogeny for haplogroup I (at least 7 years old !) which does not even have I1. Anyhow, there is no haplogroup I at all in Algeria, not I-M223 in the Maghreb so far, and possibly no I1 either. This would mean that the Vandals were primarily R1b-U106, and may not have carried haplogroup R1a, I1 or I2a2. That would be very surprising considering that they originated in Sweden. Iberia, where the Vandals also settled, also has considerably more Germanic R1b than I or R1a.

On the mtDNA side, haplogroup U4 (1.67%) is the only obvious trace of North European ancestry in Algeria. Other haplogroups would need deeper clade testing.
 
Excellent find, Maciamo!

Regarding the Vandal origins, what are you basing the assumption on that they were originally from Sweden? I think R1b-U106 makes a fair bit of sense: The earliest mentionings of them place them in the approximate area of Southwestern to Central Poland. Sure, this mainly assumes of course that U106 is of Vandal origin, but, I agree it's the most likely possibility.
 
Maybe a part of that U152 can be attributed to pieds-noirs as well?
 
Maybe a part of that U152 can be attributed to pieds-noirs as well?

I doubt so. It's too recent. Unless they are illegitimate children, they would have a French surname and would therefore be excluded from the study. Y-DNA studies normally always look at people's paper genealogy.

For that matter, the frequencies shown on the tables and maps on Eupedia represent the situation around the 17th and 18th centuries, before the rural exodus caused by the industrial revolution, not the situation today.
 
Excellent find, Maciamo!

Regarding the Vandal origins, what are you basing the assumption on that they were originally from Sweden? I think R1b-U106 makes a fair bit of sense: The earliest mentionings of them place them in the approximate area of Southwestern to Central Poland. Sure, this mainly assumes of course that U106 is of Vandal origin, but, I agree it's the most likely possibility.

Agree, but the new "battle" is between U106 and P312
 
Let's note the 2.5% of R1b-U198 + R1b-P312. Too bad they didn't separate the two, because if this is really U198 it would be the first confirmed presence of Germanic R1b in North Africa. I don't understand why they list U198 with P312 instead of U106 though. It must be a mistake.

Unfortunately the study uses a very outdated phylogeny for haplogroup I (at least 7 years old !) which does not even have I1. Anyhow, there is no haplogroup I at all in Algeria, not I-M223 in the Maghreb so far, and possibly no I1 either. This would mean that the Vandals were primarily R1b-U106, and may not have carried haplogroup R1a, I1 or I2a2. That would be very surprising considering that they originated in Sweden. Iberia, where the Vandals also settled, also has considerably more Germanic R1b than I or R1a.

Maciamo, you are wrong. First of all according to this study U106 was not found both in Algiria and Tunis. Here's a table with results:

http://foto.rambler.ru/photos/512cdc66-cb88-d6f6-7d9e-664fb691d7b4/

Secondly Vandals did not migrated from Sweden since the distribution of clades which are typical for Scandinavia excludes the possibility of any migration from Scandinavia to Central or Eastern Europe. So the Eastern Germanic people were of no doubts R1a-Z280 since the distribution of R1a in Iberia pretty much matches settlements of East Germanic people and for a while all those R1a haplos turned out to be Z280+.
 
Oh there you are Gloomy... long time no see. I guess you've been lying low because you were bested by an American in our little debate. Please don't belittle other's information when you've been proven to be unreliable (which isn't that big of a deal, we all make mistakes)... more importantly you've shown yourself to be unaccountable.

So until I hear you address your previous comments about the Vikings never entering Russia, I will continue to hold your credibility in a firm but unrelenting choke hold.
 
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Oh there you are Gloomy... long time no see. I guess you've been lying low because you were bested by an American in our little debate. Please don't belittle other's information when you've been proven to be unreliable (which isn't that big of a deal, we all make mistakes)... more importantly you've shown yourself to be unaccountable.

So untill I hear you address your previous comments about the Vikings never entering Russia, I will continue to hold your credibility in a firm but unrelenting choke hold.

What are you talking about? What unreliable inforamtion?
Vikings (if you mean Scandinavian Vikings) have never entered Russia.
 
What are you talking about? What unreliable inforamtion?
Vikings (if you mean Scandinavian Vikings) have never entered Russia.

You're precious... but it's talk like that which prevents you from sitting at the adult table. I'm disappointed in myself for taking your previous posts seriously.
 
I'm probably going to regret this exchange Gloomy, but my curiousity is getting the better of me... what areas do you specifically deem Scandinavian? Sweden? Norway? Denmark? Please let me look inside your cranium so I can see what makes you tick.

And back to the initial thread, maybe they need to do an updated test to improve the hg I accuracy?

**EDIT** Maciamo, not to split hairs, but doesn't this complete and utter lack of hg I run counter to your earlier hg I map which showed a band of hg I in North Africa?

**EDIT II** After reviewing the numbers more carefully... these aren't data points we can hang a hat on-- .64% or 1 out of 156 for R1a? This indicates an extra enjoyable vacation for the 1952 Hungarian Men's Water Polo team assistant coach just as much as it's an indicator of Vandal activity. Really, we aren't yet approaching valuable science with these slim totals.

(BTW, I just made that up about the coach to prove a point... please save the barbs for when I've earned them)
 
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I'm probably going to regret this exchange Gloomy, but my curiousity is getting the better of me... what areas do you specifically deem Scandinavian? Sweden? Norway? Denmark? Please let me look inside your cranium so I can see what makes you tick.

**EDIT** Maciamo, not to split hairs, but doesn't this complete and utter lack of hg I run counter to your earlier hg I map which showed a band of hg I in North Africa?

**EDIT II** After reviewing the numbers more carefully... these aren't data points we can hang a hat on-- .64% or 1 out of 156 for R1a? This indicates an extra enjoyable vacation for the 1952 Hungarian Water Polo men's team assistant coach just as much as it's an indicator of Vandal activity. Really, we aren't yet approaching valuable science with these slim totals.

(BTW, I just made that up about the coach to prove a point... please save the barbs)

I do not have any unconventional views about this special matter so when I say "Scandianvian" I mean Scandinavian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia
 
You have pleny of unconventional views, don't be modest.

Vikings from Sweden and Denmark travelled throughout Russia. On the previous thread, the videos that Yetos linked showed archelogists in Russia pulling Swedish Viking artifacts out of the ground. I then posted R1a, N, and I1 modern day percentages listed by FTDNA project Viking for Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, etc. Basic history books teach this stuff. Russia is named after the Rus Vikings.

You goofed. It's O.K. Just take a deep breath and admit you made a mistake-- you'll feel better.
 
You have pleny of unconventional views, don't be modest.

Vikings from Sweden and Denmark travelled throughout Russia. On the previous thread, the videos that Yetos linked showed archelogists in Russia pulling Swedish Viking artifacts out of the ground. I then posted R1a, N, and I1 modern day percentages listed by FTDNA project Viking for Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, etc. Basic history books teach this stuff. Russia is named after the Rus Vikings.

You goofed. It's O.K. Just take a deep breath and admit you made a mistake-- you'll feel better.

You are so incompetent in this matter.
1. They found artifacts typical for Baltic region. Baltic region is not only Sweden. Do you see the difference?
2. Some Russian rulers like any other rulers in Europe hired mercenaries from other countries to serve for a piece of bread but it does not mean that they travelled throughout Russia. That's why they lefy no traces in Russian culture and in Russian genofond.
3. I've got tired repeating you all the same over and over again. Show me haplos typical for Scandianvia found in historical Russia, Ukraine and Belorussia.
4. Russia is not named after Rus Vikings coz Rus Vikings never existed at the first place. Russian Primary Chronical clearly states that they were Varyagi but not Vikings as well as it states that they were not from Sweden and Danmark. According to the present day knowlege about genetic results from Russia, Ukraine, Belorussia and Baltic region the best chances for being those Rus' Varyagi have guys from South Baltic (Poland) where lived people called Rugii (Rogi, Ruyane). In Old Russian Rugi or Rogi would sound like Rusi or Rosi since sound "g" usually was turned into -z or -s in Russian language (e.g. Varyagi turned into Varyazi). And in some old foreign documents Russians were referred as Rugii.

Here's the map specifying location of Rugii folks:
http://foto.rambler.ru/photos/512d9130-a7a2-2e5d-7d9e-d901dabb2f1f/

Here's the map for haplos from South Baltic region:
http://foto.rambler.ru/photos/512d90e5-b60c-848f-7d9e-06b1cb1585cd/

As you can see migration of folks from South Baltic is pretty much visible in contrast to mythical Vikings who left no traces in Russia.
 
Um, well there's this...
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/maps/470/

Your map is dated 125 A.D. so it's not really that helpful when discussing the Viking era.

I listed the I1 and R1a percentages originating in Russia and surrounding areas (Ukraine, Belrus, etc.) on the FTDNA Viking Project page (7% and 9% respectively). I invite you to visit the site to confirm my counting. In no way did I imply Russia was ONLY populated with Viking tribes, just that it was visited by the Vikings. Scandinavian Vikings.

Now I was going to take my boot off of your neck and offer to agree to disagree... then you start your rebuttal with "You are so incompetent in this matter." Some people never learn...
 
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How many times..... how many time should I repeat the word "Scandinavian"?

Do you gonna prove me that there's I1 haplo in Russia? I know it as well as I know that it's mostly pretty much old and came from Elba-Oder region and settled in Oka basin. Later they were pushed further to Volga by advancing R1a-Z280 folks migrating from South Baltic. The proble as I have already told you many times is that we have no I1 clades from Scandinavia.

Man, for you all I1 clades are the same while for me each of them has its own place of origination and TMRCA.
 
Um, well there's this...
I listed the I1 and R1a percentages originating in Russia and surrounding areas (Ukraine, Belrus, etc.) on the FTDNA Viking Project page (7% and 9% respectively). In no way did I imply Russia was ONLY populated with Viking tribes, just that it was visited by the Vikings. Scandinavian Vikings.

Now I was going to take my boot of your neck and offer to agree to disagree... then you start your rebuttal with "You are so incompetent in this matter." Some people never learn...

You are hopeless. Completely hopeless. You'd better get at least a small grain of knowlege in genealogy. For a while you see no difference between different clades of haplos and put everything in one pile. I've got tired trying to explain you elementary and quite obvious things. You even do not try to understand. You are hopeless.
 
Man, for you all I1 clades are the same while for me each of them has its own place of origination and TMRCA.

Nice try my friend. If you look carefully at the clades, there is a thorough mix--these are not all ancient lines. If I could build a time machine, record live action video of Swedish Vikings paddling fox pelts and slaves through Russian territory on their way to Constantinople... you would still deny it.
 
I won't toss you into the bin of hopelessness-- even though you make it very tempting.

I made a mistake claiming the hg I band in N.A. was I1 attributed to the Vandal campaign. I admit that was assuming too much. I was excited to finally see this hg I in N.A. and I jumped the gun.

You made an error claiming Scandinavian Vikings never made it into Russia. By failing to admit your mistake, you look obstinate and hard-headed.
 
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Maciamo, you are wrong. First of all according to this study U106 was not found both in Algiria and Tunis. Here's a table with results:

Don't you know that U198 is downstream of U106 ?
 
Don't you know that U198 is downstream of U106 ?

Absolutenaly. If we have no one U106+ how can we have any U198+? I guess It's pretty much obvious that they by mistake typed U198 in wrong field since U198 even not under P312 it's from parallel branch. They should put it in one field upper with U106.

The fact that placing of U198 in the same field with P312 is a mistake becomes especially obvious if you compare letter-digital designation of clades written in the first column and SNPs in the next. It’s clear that they sorted out results by branches.

Check it up:
R1b1b1a1 - L11
R1b1b1a1a - U106
R1b1b1a1b - U198,P312,S116
R1b1b1a1b1 - U152

So if we have U106 placed in branch R1b1b1a1a then and U198 should be placed in the branch but not in the next branch R1b1b1a1b with P312.
 

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