Major new paper on Bulgarian Y-chromosomal haplogroups.

Romanians are heavily Slavic shifted as far as i know.

Correct. Then the comparison of Romanians with Bulgarians is even more significant.

EDIT: my estimate is max. 30% Slavic ancestry in Romanians/Bulgarians.
 
The 30% slavs would also perfectly explain not only the elevated North_euro but also the reduced Atlantic_med compared to Tuscans (or central Italians).
 
Romanians are heavily Slavic shifted as far as i know.

More shifted to Hungarians. But Bulgarians, altought we are Southern Slavs cluster with them. img546.imageshack.us/img546/693/webga101.png
EDIT: my estimate is max. 30% Slavic ancestry in Romanians/Bulgarians.
North Atlantic + Baltic
Bulgarians 7.31% + 34.91%
Romanians 9.8% + 34.65%
docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AkbFGFGkvhh9dF9Va3ZpU3VnRVBTb1ZJckJBYWhGcmc&output=html
Imo the rest of Med + West Asian comes from the local Balkan tribes eg. Thracians, Ilyrians, Dacians etc.
 
I see we are incorporating autosomal results in with y-DNA findings. That should move things further along and improve the accuracy of settlement populations.
 
More shifted to Hungarians. But Bulgarians, altought we are Southern Slavs cluster with them. img546.imageshack.us/img546/693/webga101.png

North Atlantic + Baltic
Bulgarians 7.31% + 34.91%
Romanians 9.8% + 34.65%
docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AkbFGFGkvhh9dF9Va3ZpU3VnRVBTb1ZJckJBYWhGcmc&output=html
Imo the rest of Med + West Asian comes from the local Balkan tribes eg. Thracians, Ilyrians, Dacians etc.

These are very interesting correlation tables, thanks!

One little comment to admixtures:
Imo, separating North_atlantic and Baltic is problematic, since they have much more overlap than differences, as one also might expect from their geographic proximity. That's why I trust K12b much more. North_atlantic merely reflects North_euro+Atlantic_med+Gedrosia (K12b), whereas Baltic is North_euro+Caucasus (K12b). K12b shows that the small percentages of Gedrosia and Caucasus admixture are the main reason why these regions become so much separated in other runs.
 
For me it was shocking closeness between Bulgarians and Romanians autosomal DNA / DNA even Y / . Cause disbelief when I mention in front of friends. How misleads language!!!

Realise that the ancient people of both Bulgaria and Romania are the same , that is THRACIAN
 
According to mean ancient Bulgarian tribes were Iranic originally from Kurdistan. Those NOMADIC Aryan tribes left the Iranian palteau and went to the steppes and Central Asia.

There is lots of Y-DNA hg. J2a in Bulgaria, Ukraine etc. Also Zoroastrianism (/Magianism) and more preciselyZurvanism connects Bulgaria with Kurdistan.


Biggest Bulgarian feast nowadays is SURVA. Surva is derived form an Kurdish Aryan (Magian) God Zurvan. Zurvan is relaed to a Sanscrit word for sun god - SURYA.

Zurvan is the supreme GOD of Time, Space, Life etc. and he is the father of Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu.

Before Islamisation Kurds were the 'SUN' and 'fire' worshippers. There's still a native Kurdish religion called the Yezidisme where the SUN symbolises the supreme being (GOD). I'm anYezidi Kurd by myself.
Zoroastrianismwas an official religion of the Medes and Magi (who prophesied the birth of Jesus Christ according to the Bible) were Iranic Kurds from Kurdistan.


http://ianf.hyperboards.com/action/view_topic/topic_id/841

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zurvanism
 
Kurdish God Zurvan:

glossaryzurvan.jpg



Bulgarian fire worshipping during the feast called Surva
bwy1230733726l.jpg



Kurdish fireworshipping during Kurdish Iranic new year, NewRoz
newroz09fo7.jpg

Newroz_Akra_Akre__2010_03_22_h18m54s15__VR.jpg

state3685.jpg



Yezidi Kurdish black snake in Lalish (South Kurdistan):
porte-ouest.jpg

images.jpg



North Kurdistan Colemêrg (Kurgan) stelae, 1500 B.C.
pkkcarvedsnake.jpg
 
For me it was shocking closeness between Bulgarians and Romanians autosomal DNA / DNA even Y / . Cause disbelief when I mention in front of friends. How misleads language!!!

Let's not forget that the pro-Bulgarians first settled on the north bank of the Danube, they build fortresses there (now on Romanian territory). That is were Asparuh claimed victory over Romans. Look at the map of Bulgaria during the reign of Tzar Simeon, modern day territory of Romania is part of Bulgaria. So lets say for 4 centuries the majority of the land with the tribes was part of Bulgaria.
 
For me it was shocking closeness between Bulgarians and Romanians autosomal DNA / DNA even Y / . Cause disbelief when I mention in front of friends. How misleads language!!!
Well bordering countries without natural barriers, nothing very surprising there.
 
I see some difference between the data of the major new study, which should be taken until new better study come as the data for Bulgarians and the data in Eupedia
first numbers bellow would represents % in Eupedia,second number the good number from the study:
OK lets go
I1- 4.5/4.3 here everything is OK 0.2 is nothing
I2 + I2a- 19.5/20.6, here is a problem 1.1 % difference
I2b- 1.5/1.7 OK 0.2
R1a-17/17.7 here is a problem either 17.5 or better 18
R1b- 10.5/10.5 perfect
G2a-5/4.8 OK
J2- 11/10.5 better to write 10.5
J1-3/3.4 better to write 3.4 or 3.5
E1b1b- 24/22.1 here is a problem should be written 22%
T-1.5/1.6 here is OK
Q-0.5/0.4 here is OK
N-0.5/0.5 here is perfect
So can the % please be changed, small differences do not matter but I2+I2a,R1a,E1b1b,J2 and J1 should be changed!Thanks!
 
PLOS ONE just released Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians: New Clues about Their Ancestry by Karachanak et al. Bulgaria was relatively undersampled to this day. This study, sampling 808 lineages from each of the 9 Bulgarian provinces, will provide valuable new insight, especially since it is the first research to look into the deep subclades of haplogroups G (10 subclades tested !), J2, Q, and R1b (8 subclades). It is a major improvement from the Bulgarian study by the same team five years ago, which didn't even differentiate the three main branches of I (I1, I2-M223 and I2-M423). Haplogroups non-listed in the table (C, H, L, R2) decrease by 0.7%.

Compared to the data I had computed on the Y-DNA tables (which I will update soon), this study shows a slightly higher frequency for haplogroups R1a (+2.5%), E1b1b (+2.1%), R1b (+2%) J1 (+1.5%), T (+1%), I1 (+0.8%), G (+0.8%), and N (+0.5%), but a lower percentage for J2 (-5%) and I2-M423 (-2%). The remaining I2-M223 and Q have virtually unchanged frequencies.

G-P303 (G2a1c2a in the present ISOGG nomenclature) is the dominant branch of G2a in Bulgaria, amounting to 3.1% of all paternal lineages. Two of its subclades are well represented : L497 (1.9%) and U1 (0.5%). Other forms of G2a only have trace frequencies, but nevertheless show a remarkable diversity. There were even samples of G2a* (P15).

In the Kurgan hypothesis, the scenario I favour for the spread of Indo-European people and languages, I postulated that R1b migrated from Anatolia to the Pontic Steppe in the Neolithic, then invaded the Danube basin from the late Chalcolithic and early Bronze Age, starting by roughly 5500 ybp. To confirm that hypothesis, R1b subclades should show some kind a gradient in time from east to west. In other words older subclades like L23 should be most common in Southeast Europe, then decrease in frequency towards Western Europe, where newer subclades arose. This is exactly what we observe here, as the main Bulgarian subclade of R1b is L23, which makes up half of all R1b lineages. Most of the other R1b lineages are later Celtic, Roman or Germanic arrivals, or even older subclades (1% of M269).

The Celtic R1b-S116 only makes up 0.7% of the Bulgarian gene pool, while the Celto-Roman R1b-U152 is at 2.2%, a frequency in line with those observed in other parts of the Roman Empire outside the U152 homeland (Italy + Alps), be it Iberia, North Africa or Anatolia.

It's always interesting to try to find traces of Germanic lineages in southern Europe. In this case, it is the Goths who settled in the region in the 3rd century. Typical Germanic haplogroups include I1 (4.3%), I2a2 (former I2b, 1.7%) and R1b-U106 (1.2%). This would appear to confirm my previous estimate that the Goths carried far more I1 and I2b lineages than R1b. Unfortunately no R1a subclades were tested aside from M458, which is a Slavic branch. The Germanic subclade of interest for the Goths is Z284.

I wish I could comment on the regional variations, but only Sofia and Plovdiv have over 100 samples (the very minimum to be relevant), and some provinces have ridiculous sample sizes (e.g. n=15 for Varna and n=21 for Razgrad).


The authors of the paper make some bizarre assumptions, on which I will comment below.



Why on earth would they classify E-V13 as Western Eurasian and not Middle Eastern or North African ? There is enough evidence (its presence across the Middle East, North Africa and Iberia) now to be confident that E-V13 did not originate in the Balkans, but probably in Northeast Africa like all other main subclades of E1b1b.

Note that Karanachak et al. already claimed in their 2008 Bulgarian study that E-V13 reached the Balkans 17,000 years ago and expanded from their in Neolithic times. They haven't learned anything in five years.



In other words they are saying that R1b-L23 and E-V13 were already in Europe before the Neolithic. This is highly unlikely. That is a good example of why one shouldn't assume anything based on the age estimates using STR loci, which have proved unreliable many times before.
My view is that Karachanak may be somebody who is a professional genetist. I would be no surprised if he has a PHD in Genetics. That means he knows what he is talking about. Large presence of E in North Africa not necessarily means that E was born there. It could have been born where Karanchak says and for thousand of years they reconquered North Africa. What the surprise here? I suppose that Karanchak knows that he has an international audience for his work and any blunder will discredit his work. So there is a possibility that he is right and everyone else wrong. If its true that E is Eurasian marker it does not make it any better if E was born in Africa.
 
@ Goga

the fire worship you mention is clear a Thracian custom named as nestenaria and bad translation in Greek as anastenaria,
it means Nest or ΕΣΤΙΑ a word that we find also in toponymes of villages and small dwellings from Greece to Romania (Παρανεστι Ploesti ) it is consider an old Thracian custom that pass to minor Asia with Brygians

the winter time nestnaria ritual
before the dance upon firecoals with barefeet


the May ritual

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0M7YiR3J0U

as you can hear the music althought sounds anatolian it is not, it is pure Thracian lost in some mountain areas and came known after 1912 and 1960
I think the connection of the dance with Brygian/Thracian dance ZEIBEK zeybek is obvious
besides Zeybek comes from deity Zeus and surely it is not Turkish but Thracian in Origin, the dance of the eagle when hunts and feed him shelf (Zey +bek(os)

the fire must turn off by dancing on it at night before the morning so Deity of sun must not see it.

the same ritual in Bulgaria

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXylP8MyRG0
 
I have now updated the Y-DNA frequencies for Bulgaria. I have made the total of this study, Rosser et al. (2000) and the latest data from the FTDNA Bulgaria Project (counting only those with the most remote patrilineal ancestor born in Bulgaria).

EDIT : I also updated the frequencies for Macedonia, adding the Trivodalieva (2010) study to the Pericic (2005) and Bosch (2006) that were used so far. It corrected the extravagant figure of 10% of I1 to a mere 3%. R1b and E1b1b were also reduced by 3% each, while I2-M423 increased significantly (+9%).

how come Y DNA I1 is spread out in all of Europe there is no Y DNA haplogroup like that and besides I M170 y DNa I1 is the oldest Y DNa haplogroup in Europe maybe it is so spread out not because of Germans but because it was already there over 10,000ybp that is what i think because Y DNA I1 literally exists in every spot n Europe unlike any other Y DNA haplogroup maybe some come from the Germans but most don't and did they test for y DNA I1 subclades if there is just plain I1 not a I1 subclade then that is evidence it was not spread bu Germans
 
i1 was spread by scandinavians (swedes,norwegians) not "germans", although germans also have i1 at 25-30%. as for bulgarians , they are much like romanians, a paternal amalgamy of 20% e3b, i2a, r1a,r1b and j2.
 
how come Y DNA I1 is spread out in all of Europe there is no Y DNA haplogroup like that and besides I M170 y DNa I1 is the oldest Y DNa haplogroup in Europe maybe it is so spread out not because of Germans but because it was already there over 10,000ybp that is what i think because Y DNA I1 literally exists in every spot n Europe unlike any other Y DNA haplogroup maybe some come from the Germans but most don't and did they test for y DNA I1 subclades if there is just plain I1 not a I1 subclade then that is evidence it was not spread bu Germans

There are some areas where I1 is effectively absent, namely Sardinia, and other places where it is quite uncommon, like certain areas of Spain. In addition, there are other haplogroups that are at least as omnipresent in Europe as I1, namely R1b (reaches low frequencies in a few places like Bosnia but never really lower than 1%) and R1a (which has very similar patterns as I1 in Western Europe, and a more significant presence in Eastern Europe). It's also a bit odd to call I1 the "oldest Y-DNA haplogroup in Europe" considering that STR dating gives an estimate of only ~4500 years old for it. I suppose its branching date with I2 is quite ancient indeed, and that likely happened in Europe, but that certainly doesn't explain its current distribution. At ~4500 years old (so far corroborated by [lack of] ancient DNA evidence), we have to reach for something more recent. Since the highest diversity of its major branches are near the Germanic core area, and most of the highest frequency areas are Germanic or historically Germanic areas, a largely Germanic spread of I1 makes the most sense.

That doesn't mean that I1 was originally Germanic, or that all of its branches have been Germanic. But its current distribution must be largely due to the historic spread of Germanic peoples.

i1 was spread by scandinavians (swedes,norwegians) not "germans", although germans also have i1 at 25-30%.

If Germans also have a lot of I1, why do you think it was spread exclusively by Scandinavians?
 
Because Scandinavians spread it to Germans first.
 

This thread has been viewed 72274 times.

Back
Top