Major new paper on Bulgarian Y-chromosomal haplogroups.

[Pillar_of_Fire]

I am wondering why they did not contact FTDNA (requested permission, etc, etc) and included as additional group the testees there, allocating the most distant parental ancestor to the respective region? There is a total of 133 testees (excluding the visitors and the Bulgarian muslims).

 

[ElHorsto]

Modern Bulgarians are not the original Bulgarians (Bulgars)? Who are you then? A mix of different people? Why do your history connect you with the original bulgars? Fabrication of false historical facts and claims.

Look at the history of the many Bulgar empires and you will see than dozens of other people could claim to be bulgars the same way:
Tadjiks, Tatars, Chuvashs, Balkhars, Moldavians, Mordvins, Utmurts.... Whis one is the right "Bulgaria"? They all were once members of a constantly moving and reshaping Bulgarian state. Heck, half of Russia was once Bulgar. Modern Bulgaria is just a name. France coincidentally kept the name from the germanic Franks, but not germanic Germany .

 

[Yaan]

Get a life *****!Why are Russians called after Scandinavians and the French after Germanic u seem really uninformed I would not be surprised if u are Yugoslav or Albanian, ha ha ha ha, I smell u from miles guys

 

[Yaan]

I am referring to the hater Deje vu above

 

[Yaan]

I have always said that haplogroup R1* was Central Asian. R1a* came from the Eurasian steppe, even if it isn't clear where exactly. R1b* probably arose in Central or South Asia, then moved to the Middle East, where it became R1b1* (P25). R1b-M269 arose either in Anatolia or in the Pontic Steppes. Only subclades downstream of L11 can be considered "native European", but will always keep their Middle Eastern and Central Asian ancestry as part of the R1b family. Apparently you didn't read anything in my R1b history.

E-V13 simply couldn't have originated in the Balkans because it is found all the way from Egypt eastwards to Morocco and westwards to the Arabian peninsula, Anatolia, Azerbaijan, Iran, Pakistan and India, in addition to Europe. But don't forget that E-V13 is an old haplogroup (like R1b1*) with plenty of subclades, and many of them did arise in the Balkans. But E-V13 didn't. It could not have spread throughout West Asia, South Asia and North Africa if it had originated in the Balkans.

You can check these papers if you doubt my word :

- E-V13 in North Africa and the Middle East : Tracing Past Human Male Movements in Northern/Eastern Africa and Western Eurasia

- E-V13 in Iran : Ancient Migratory Events in the Middle East: New Clues from the Y-Chromosome Variation of Modern Iranians

Yes yes and any sample above 2-3% no, it is because of Ancient Balkan people going to this places. Plain and simple.

 

[Yaan]

Look at the history of the many Bulgar empires and you will see than dozens of other people could claim to be bulgars the same way:
Tadjiks, Tatars, Chuvashs, Balkhars, Moldavians, Mordvins, Utmurts.... Whis one is the right "Bulgaria"? They all were once members of a constantly moving and reshaping Bulgarian state. Heck, half of Russia was once Bulgar. Modern Bulgaria is just a name. France coincidentally kept the name from the germanic Franks, but not germanic Germany .

Now that is a good post, not a post of people unfamiliar that do not understand and come here to make themselves better about their inferiority complex.Cheers

 

[DejaVu]

I am referring to the hater Deje vu above

Who is hater? You should know your history. Where is the bulgars in bulgaria? If there is no bulgars there should be no reason for the country Bulgaria to be be named Bulgaria. Claim of the identity of all original bulgars. Dont you think this is wrong (The name and the claim) ?

 

[kamani]

I really don't see where the Thracians would have got their I1 from. They were not of Nordic or Germanic origin.

Besides, the percentage of I1 is completely in line with that of neighbouring regions:

- Serbia = 6% of I1
- Northern Greece = 5.5%
- Macedonia = 3%
- Romania = 2%
- Albania = 2%

The goths have been in the area for hundreds of years, right before the fall of the roman empire, so it is hard to say it is not them, but where is the gothic R1a?

 

[nordicwarrior]

What's interesting to me is the amount of buzz this thread has generated. Maciamo's earlier post moving haplogroup A back to 338,000 B.C. made not much more than a small splash, and this post (which doesn't have THAT much new information really) ignitates some intense debate.

We are an entertaining species, although one that's not so easy to predict.

 

[Yaan]

Who is hater? You should know your history. Where is the bulgars in bulgaria? If there is no bulgars there should be no reason for the country Bulgaria to be be named Bulgaria. Claim of the identity of all original bulgars. Dont you think this is wrong (The name and the claim) ?

Just be a man and tell r u Yugoslav,Albanian,Gypsy or Turk:bored:

 

[ElHorsto]

Who is hater? You should know your history. Where is the bulgars in bulgaria? If there is no bulgars there should be no reason for the country Bulgaria to be be named Bulgaria. Claim of the identity of all original bulgars. Dont you think this is wrong (The name and the claim) ?

The name Bulgaria just happen to be the legacy of the last state in this territory. Before there was Byzantinum, Rome, Thrace. There is no reason to assume that the population corresponds to the ancestry of the last state founders. It is a political designation.

It is amazing how a simple label can change the feelings and destiny of a whole nation and its perception from outside.
Today there are people from Tatarstan who read in wikipedia that their territory once belonged to Wolga-Bulgaria until 1200 CE and seek citizenship in modern Bulgaria. Their Bulgaria ceased to exist, so they spot an alternative country with the same name in the Balkans and they start inventing mythical ancestries. Also Hungarians were perceived as plain asians, which turned out to be 99% false.

 

[zanipolo]

There where no Goths in mainland sweden, so they cannot have had I1, although they could have carried it , with migrations of geats to the vistula.

Lets not confuse these peoples........
Goths = Germanic or Baltic people who most likely where R1a, lived on the south baltic coast. Old Prussian lands.
Geats = lived in south sweden, most likely I1 , no relation to goths.
Gutes = gotland island, ancient migrations from east baltic lands , over 4000 year sold.
Gepids = germanic people in modern Polish lands, not near the coast - said to be related to Goths, most likely R1a
Getae = thracians mixed with sarmatians roxalani tribe


check site below on the Bulgarians and there take on it.

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/

On a side note I was also curious on the map of R1b....check the all green circle for austria and north-east Italy

 

[Maciamo]

The name Bulgaria just happen to be the legacy of the last state in this territory. Before there was Byzantinum, Rome, Thrace. There is no reason to assume that the population corresponds to the ancestry of the last state founders. It is a political designation.

It is amazing how a simple label can change the feelings and destiny of a whole nation and its perception from outside.
Today there are people from Tatarstan who read in wikipedia that their territory once belonged to Wolga-Bulgaria until 1200 CE and seek citizenship in modern Bulgaria. Their Bulgaria ceased to exist, so they spot an alternative country with the same name in the Balkans and they start inventing mythical ancestries. Also Hungarians were perceived as plain asians, which turned out to be 99% false.

I completely agree with you.

 

[Maciamo]

There where no Goths in mainland sweden, so they cannot have had I1, although they could have carried it , with migrations of geats to the vistula.

Lets not confuse these peoples........
Goths = Germanic or Baltic people who most likely where R1a, lived on the south baltic coast. Old Prussian lands.
Geats = lived in south sweden, most likely I1 , no relation to goths.
Gutes = gotland island, ancient migrations from east baltic lands , over 4000 year sold.
Gepids = germanic people in modern Polish lands, not near the coast - said to be related to Goths, most likely R1a
Getae = thracians mixed with sarmatians roxalani tribe

I don't know where you get the idea that the Goths who invaded the Roman Empire were not related to the Goths from Sweden, but I can only disagree. All the Germanic people you list are descended from Scandinavians, for the simple reason that all Germanic tribes have Scandinavian ancestry. Germanic people, culture and language originated in the Nordic Bronze Age. Only in the Iron Age did they expand south to Germany and Poland. If tribes like the Goths, Gutes and Getae have similar names, it is most probably because they were originally the same tribe that split. The same thing happened with Celtic tribes too.

 

[Jackson]

There where no Goths in mainland sweden, so they cannot have had I1, although they could have carried it , with migrations of geats to the vistula.

Lets not confuse these peoples........
Goths = Germanic or Baltic people who most likely where R1a, lived on the south baltic coast. Old Prussian lands.
Geats = lived in south sweden, most likely I1 , no relation to goths.
Gutes = gotland island, ancient migrations from east baltic lands , over 4000 year sold.
Gepids = germanic people in modern Polish lands, not near the coast - said to be related to Goths, most likely R1a
Getae = thracians mixed with sarmatians roxalani tribe


check site below on the Bulgarians and there take on it.

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/

On a side note I was also curious on the map of R1b....check the all green circle for austria and north-east Italy

And also it's extremely unlikely the Goths or Gepids would have been entirely R1a or the Geats entirely I1. The Irish are some of the most R1b people you can get and they still only reach 98% in more remote areas.

 

[nordicwarrior]

I don't know where you get the idea that the Goths who invaded the Roman Empire were not related to the Goths from Sweden, but I can only disagree. All the Germanic people you list are descended from Scandinavians, for the simple reason that all Germanic tribes have Scandinavian ancestry... If tribes like the Goths, Gutes and Getae have similar names, it is most probably because they were originally the same tribe that split. The same thing happened with Celtic tribes too.

100% in agreement.

 

[zanipolo]

And also it's extremely unlikely the Goths or Gepids would have been entirely R1a or the Geats entirely I1. The Irish are some of the most R1b people you can get and they still only reach 98% in more remote areas.

- There's a lack of Scandinavian-specific R1a-Z284 in Continental Europe. So, basically the only marker would be I .
There is minimal I1 in goth areas on the continent.


below -goths movements
a (orange) - Zone A (200 BC - and of 4th century AC)
b (blue) - Zone B (150 BC - 200 AC)
c (yellow) - Zone CN "Gothiskandza" (abt. 70-200 AC)
d (light yellow) - Zone CS (abt. 80-200 AC)
e (green) - Zone D (abt. 100-350 AC)

 

[zanipolo]

I don't know where you get the idea that the Goths who invaded the Roman Empire were not related to the Goths from Sweden, but I can only disagree. All the Germanic people you list are descended from Scandinavians, for the simple reason that all Germanic tribes have Scandinavian ancestry. Germanic people, culture and language originated in the Nordic Bronze Age. Only in the Iron Age did they expand south to Germany and Poland. If tribes like the Goths, Gutes and Getae have similar names, it is most probably because they were originally the same tribe that split. The same thing happened with Celtic tribes too.

since there is no swedish R1a in goth areas on the mainland, we are left with I1 , maybe some Q and N.
Tell me what are the "swedish" goth markers in the areas between poland and the black sea.

The GEATS are south swedish people who are confused with the GOTHS. There are accounts of invasions to the vistula delta and also Geats invasion against the jutes of jutland and the 4 invasion of frisian lands.

same names rarely mean same people....this has been proven time and time again by historians

The only reason the swedes claim GOTH homeland is to claim a history they do not have ........a history for the royal family , exactly the same as when they also say they are kings of the wends.
Never believe the stories of any monarchy , it all distortion of truths

Also Roman and Greek historians have only goths on the mainland

(a) Ptolomaeus (A.D. 161-182), the famous ancient geographer, mathematician and astronomer, in his treatise Geogr. lib. 3. cap. 5. writes:

Elattova de eunh vemetai Saomatian, paoa men ton Ouistoulan potamon. Upo touj Ouenedaj, Guuwnej. Eita Finnoi.

This, when translated into English, means: "The less significant people abide in Sarmatia, near the mouth of the Vistula river. Beyond the Venedi are Guthones. Then the Finns.

Pytheas before at around 320BC .....goths only on the continent picking up amber from the sea-shore.

Pytheas credidit Guttonibus Germaniae genti, accoli Aestuarium oceani, MENTO NOMON nomine, spatio stadiorum sex millium. Ab hoc die navigatione
insulam abesse Abalum. Illo vero fluctibus advehi et esse concreti maris purgamentum.

as translated -"Pytheas believed that the Guttones were of German race, but was unsure, living by the Aestuarian sea (Baltic sea), at the mouth of the river named NOMON, at the stretch of 6,000 stadii. Sailing a day. Pytheus never knew of baltic people, so called all people germanics, but the river Nomon is stated.
native land of the Goths was by the Aestuarian sea (by the Baltic sea), exactly where the Aestians (Aestii = Lithuanian ancestors) lived. And in the original Greek manuscript would be Men to Nouon. Hence the word "MENTO" equals the Greek people, to which means "MOUTH of the RIVER"; --- and the word "NOMON" means "NEMON" (= Niemen).

 

[nordicwarrior]

- There's a lack of Scandinavian-specific R1a-Z284 in Continental Europe. So, basically the only marker would be I .
There is minimal I1 in goth areas on the continent.

Not quite, the major groups in Scandinavia are I1, R1a, and R1b. You're overlooking R1b.

 

[zanipolo]

- There's a lack of Scandinavian-specific R1a-Z284 in Continental Europe. So, basically the only marker would be I .
There is minimal I1 in goth areas on the continent.

Not quite, the major groups in Scandinavia are I1, R1a, and R1b. You're overlooking R1b.

Advise me on which R1b marker


EDIT - I will help you.

of the 39 samples in southern sweden , Geats area i.e scandia. The R1b is made up of
75% U106
13% M167
12% S116