Fire Haired
Regular Member
- Messages
- 689
- Reaction score
- 32
- Points
- 0
- Ethnic group
- Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R1b Df27(Spain)
- mtDNA haplogroup
- U5b2a2(Prussia)
My account has been acting up lately it has barely been working this whole thread might be messed up. With the paragraphs stuck together and other things also the format of threads on this webiste is really thin which will make it look longer. I want to ask Maciamo if he could make a Germanic Italo Celtic R1b L51 and subclades map or maybe L11 and subclades. The maps he does make are really good were he has specific subclade maps and he is constintley updating them. There is not enough room so if my account works well enough i will add a Germanic section on a post.
Here is the R1b family tree it gives the people group or area it originated which helps.
The Germanic Italo Celts with mainly R1b L11 and some R1b L51 from 5,000-4,5000ybp conquered the native Bell Beaker culture. Which before had dominated just about all of western Europe. About 4,500ybp they split into Italo Celts and Germans(dont get confused with the country Germany). The Italo Celts formed into R1b S116 invaded and conquered modern day central France, Alps, Austria, Switzerland, south Germany, and most of central Germany starting the Unetice culture about 4,500-4,300ybp. The proto Germanic speakers formed into R1b S21 about 4,500ybp conquered northern Germany, Netherlands then 4,000ybp conquered Denmark and south Scandinavia started the Nordic bronze age culture. Probably some R1b S21 people who would have spoken a Germanic language or a related language to Germanic in central Germany where conquered and mixed with Italo Celts.
It is hard to say when Celtic and Italic languages split but Italic speakers were apart of the same cultures in central Europe with many Celts till 3,200ybp. The Celts made the first major migrations they conquered all of modern day France and the areas once ruled by Unetice by 3,600-3,300ybp forming into Tumulus culture which decends from Unetice culture. The reason it is called Tumuls is because they had so many Kurgen/Tumli burials which is a traditional indo European burial. The oldest Kurgens found are 6,000 years old one from southeast Poland the other north Caucus.The proto Insular Celtic speakers with R1b L21 migrated from Tumuls culture in modern day France and conquered Britain and Ireland somewhere between 3,000-4,300ybp. The book of invasions written by Irish monks in the 1000's ad. Say there were 7 major invasions of Ireland the last one was one by Irish ancestors who were Gealic Celts who conquered the Fir blog. This could be talking about Insular Celtic conquering of Irleand about 3,000-4,000ybp. The Insular Celts were split into two groups the Gealic's from Ireland and the Brythonic's who took up all of Britain. The Insular Celts were kind of isolated from the rest of Europe and there is not as much known about them as their is about Gauls and other Celts. The Romans conquered the entire Hallstat/La Tene Celtic world but only the southern half of the Brythonic Insular Celtic world. The Brythonic Picts in Scotland and Geailic's in Ireland were never conquered by Rome but eventulley were conquered culturally and were converted to Christianity very quickly i think most people know the story of St. Patrick in Ireland. Gealic Celts from Ireland who were the Scots conquered the Picts and started the Kingdom of Scotland in the middle ages.Germanic tribes Angeals, Jutes, and Saxons and maybe others all coming from around Denmark, Netherlands, and northern Germany conquered southern and central Britain from 400-550ad. The western Roman empire was becoming weak and the Britons depended on Rome for military they had also lost alot of their identity. Many Insular Celts from Briton retreated into Britanny in western France which is why R1b L21 is so popular there. There were also invasions of Vikings from mainly around Denmark and south Scandinavia So all of these invasions lowered the percentages of R1b L21 in Britian. Map of the distribution of Insular Celtic R1b L21 before all the Germanic invasions in the late Roman period and middle ages R1b L21 would be as popular as it is in Ireland in all of Britain.
Tumlus culture also may have conquered most of Iberia and brought R1b Df27 or Celts and R1b Df27 came to Iberia in later migrations. Tumulus culture around the alps, South Germany, and east France formed into Urnfield culture. Urnfield culture became very dominate amoungst other Italo Celts. The Urnfield culture was able to spread their culture by force and trade throughout most of central Europe. They were dominated by R1b S28 they may be were R1b S28 originated. It lasted from 3,300-2,750ybp It gave birth to Celtic Hallstatt culture in central Europe and Italic Villnoeaven culture in northern Italy both were dominated by R1b S28.Map of the spread of Urnfield culture from 3,300-2,750ybp
Urnfield sowrds central Europe.
Urnfield weapons and armour from north Italy i would assume around 3,000 years old.
Urnfield also gave birth to Hallstatt Celtic culture which started in the area Urnfield and Unetice culture originated. Hallstatt spread across all of modern day France conquering other Celts mainly culturally but also by military. It could have been Celts in southern and western France who spread into Iberia with R1b Df27 from 2,700-2,500ybp. Hallstat culture gave birth to La Tene culture around the same area Unetice, Urnfield, and Hallstatt culture were founded probably because that was the center of the Italo Celtic world. Hallstatt and La Tene culture were able to spread acroos the entire Celtic world, north east Italy, alot of land in eastern Europe just north of the Balkans and in central Turkey.Map of the expansions of the Hallstatt and La Tène cultures during the Bronze Age and the Iron Age
Statue of a naked Hallstat/La Tene Celtic warrior in northern Italy. Hallstat/ La Tene Celtic warriors fought naked very ofentlley untill 200bc. They were seen as primitive barbarians by Mediterranean civilizations like Rome and as great warriors. Hallstat/La Tene Celtic warrior from TV show Deadliest warrior with traditional Urnfield R1b S28 Italo Celtic sword but it is Iron and longer. He has the right hair style, Facial hair, belt, cape, and war paintMap of Urnfield Italo Celtic R1b S28. Like i said before it was spread by Celts and Italics descended from Urnfield culture starting in central Europe around 3,500ybp. It was spread by conquest and trade mainly conquest. By warriors like the one on top who used the same style of sword. If u have R1b S28 there is no doubt ur direct fathers 2,000-3,500ybp used a swords just like the ones on top some probably fought in battles naked and in my opinion some of the greatest warriors of all time. If u are from Italy, central Europe, France, or any were there is R1b S28 u had ancestors like this.
The Hallstat Celts in The alps, France, and south Germany had constant contact, trade, and wars with Villnoeaven Italics in Italy. Which could explain why both started to use Iron around the same time. The R1b s28 Italic tribes who eventulley conquered just about all of Italy. Were heavily influenced by Greece and other Mediterranean civilizations like Estrucans who seem to have conquered most of central Italy about 3,500-3,000ybp but orignally came from somewhere in the middle east. The City Rome in Italy was founded in 753bc in Villnoaeven culture. Romans were a city state and had to slowly win over Italy from other Italic's, Celts, and Estrucans. Early Roman writing talks alot about wars they had with invading Hallstat/La Tene Celts who conquered much of northern Italy. What surprises me is they describe Hallstatt/La Tene Celts as complete foreigners even though they came from the same father culture but that is probably because of how much Italic's changed from Greek influence and they had been separated from the Celts culturally for over 500 years. Rome had lost alot of their Italic traditions and became like Greeks but they did not completely forget their old traditions. Ancient Roman writers wrote alot about how Rome had left their more simple ways and became like Greeks so they rembered who they used to be.Rome was able to conquer Italy from other Italic's, Celts and Estrucans by 218bc. Eventulley they became the powerhouse of the Mediterranean world conquering all land that borders the Mediterranean sea. Then went on to conquer the Hallstat/ La Tene Celtic world, Balkans, Greece, Dacai-Thracia, and mcuh of the middle east. The Romans probably had the most dominate and greatest military in history. It is true they had left most of their Italic traditions and became like Mediterranean civilizations but in military they thought of themselves as separate and tried to keep their traditions. Their main sword the Gladuis was invented by Hallstatt Celts in Iberia, their chain mail was invented by La Tene Celts from central Europe in 300bc, their main helmet also by La Tene Celts in central Europe. So alot of their military equipment was from Italo Celtic technology not Greek and Mediterranean. Map of farthest extent of Roman empire in 117ad.
It was the warriors like this who created the Roman empire. They would have been almost only Italian probably mainly central and southern Italian at least in the early Roman empire. So mainly R1b s28 and alot of their weapons were from Hallstat/ La Tene Celts so it formed form Italo Celtic technology. The Roman military is probably the most dominate and powerful military in Human history. Rome completely changed European history they brought a end to the age of Germanic Italo Celtic bronze-iron age tribal cultures. Roman influence also lead to the end to all tribal cultures in Europe like Slavic's. Before Rome, Europe was kind second second class right under the civilized world around the Mediterranean and also civilizations in east Asia and India. Rome in a way gave birth to the modern western world. Also Christianity became extremely popular in the Roman empire and through the Roman empire was able to spread across all of Europe and become the main religion
What are Germanic Italo Celts????
The word is confusing because when people hear Germanic they think Germany or Scandinavia when they hear Italo they think Italy and when they hear Celtic they think Ireland or Scotland. Germanic Italo Celtic is a branch of the Indo European language family tree and they have their own branch of Y DNA(Marker in Y chromsome of DNA from father to son) R1b their branch is R1b L51. From the studies i have seen it only exists in western Europe and some parts of eastern Europe. The branch that is for sure unque to Germanic Italo Celts is R1b L11 which has two subclades Italo Celtic R1b S116/P312 and Germanic R1b S21/U106 there are also some Germanic subclades of R1b S116/P312 because when Italo Celts and proto German speakers were both in central Europe they mixed but the Germanic R1b S116/P312 subclades are very rare.There is no linguistic evidence that Germanic languages and Italo Celtic languages form their own branch of the Indo European language family tree but that is probably because they have been separate for 4,500-5,000years. Archaeology, modern Y DNA, and ancient Y DNA samples connect Germanic and Italo Celts. Their culture completely dominated Bronze - Iron age Europe from about 5,000-2,000ybp. In my opinion they are one of the most powerful people in history. Evidence is almost 50% of western European men trace their direct paternal line to Germanic Italo Celts this means the native paternal lines were killed in wars. I don't know if there has ever been a people group who dominated so much. It is like their culture never lost any wars till Rome. They are a age in western European history i call it the Germanic Italo Celtic Bronze-Iron warrior age because they spread mainly by conquering. Their age ended when Italic tribes in Italy were Hellnized/Greekifed then the Roman empire. Most of them also converted to Christainty during the Roman empire and alittle after and all of Europe's culture period was completly changed by Rome.Origin of Germanic Italo Celts
Through a mix of R1a1a M417 hunter gathers and farmers from Russia and Ukraine and R1b1a P297, R1b1a2 M269, R1b1a2a L23 north mid eastern farmers 6,000-8,000ybp gave birth to Indo European language, culture, and religion. Some early Indo European groups became dominated by R1b1a P297 like Germanic Italo Celts ancestral languages some became dominated by R1a1a M417 like Indo Iranian Balto Slavic ancestral language. It is hard to say exactly what ethnicity the first Indo European speakers were. Or what languages were started by what ethnic groups what were the people who spread the language like. All we know just about for sure is the Indo European language, culture, and religion started around Russia, Ukraine, north middle east about 6,000-8,000ybp. The R1b that's spread with Indo European languages originally came from the north mid east the R1a from Russia and Ukraine. It seems all Indo European languages even groups dominated by R1b migrated out of Russia and Ukraine. The R1b came to Russia and Ukraine from the north mid east then migrated to western Europe or whatever. There was also probably some central Asia influence since very very early Indo European cultures like Yamna even as far back as 5,600ybp extended to Kazakhstan the central Asian influence could be European, mid eastern, or Mongoloid.We have types of DNA from 5,000 and 6,000 year old Yamna Indo European people in Ukraine Russia area. Only some info was released in June 2013 they said the mtDNA haplogroups( Marker in Mitochondrial chromosome passed form mother to children) all had typical Caucasian groups so mid east and Europe with no Mongoloid groups. They had the same pale skin genes that dominate Europeans today and had the same phenotype as modern Europeans. Also that they had mainly brown eyes (probably also mainly brown hair) more than most modern Europeans but around the same rate as people in that area today. DNA from Indo Iranian Indo Europeans in central and eastern Asia some are 3,800 years old. Had mainly light hair and eyes and later remains had red hair and were shown to be very unrelated to mainly brown eyed Yamna people. Their ancestors never stepped foot west of Russia so they were about 100% from Indo Europeans that migrated east deep into Asia 5,000ybp. This shows that there were diff ethnic groups in Russia, Ukraine, north mid east area 6,000-8,000ybp Who knows which one the proto Germanic Italo Celts were apart of. Since there is a lot of evidence red hair in western Europe comes from the spread of Germanic Italo Celts that would mean they were European and probably more related to the type Indo Iranians came from.The people who spoke the ancestral language of Germanic Italo Celtic migrated probably from southern Russia and Ukraine to southeast Europe mainly around Bulgaria about 6,000ybp. They would have been dominated by R1b1a2a L23. From south east Europe they then migrated north and west and landed in central Germany by 5,000ybp. By this time they would have formed into R1b1a2a1 L51 and R1b1a2a1a L11. The Germanic Italo Celts had superior bronze weapons, a very aggressive culture, War like Gods, and other things gave them a huge advantage over the native Bell Beaker culture so they were able to conquer central Europe from 5,000-4,500ybp. This could explain why out of 31 Y DNA samples in west Europe dating from 7,000-4,725ybp non had R1b but two 4,600 year old ones from central Germany had R1b one was for sure R1b1a2 M269 which shows the Germanic Italo Celts had arrived and were already dominating. From what we know this is probably how R1b migrated. If u look at the R1b subclades i named above and find them on this map u can also see how Germanic Italo Celts migrated. Italo Celts
Map of Italo Celtic R1b S11/P312 some very early italo Celtic speakers mixed with proto Germanic speakers while both were in central Europe. So there are also Germanic branchs of R1b S116 but they are pretty rare.
Like i said before the Italo Celts split from the Germans in modern day central Germany. Then migrated and conquered Alps, east France, and south Germany starting Unetice culture about 4,500-4,300ybp they also formed into R1b S116/P312 during this time.bronze swords from Unetice culture