Sicilians: Which groups overlap? (Multiple choice version)

[oreo_cookie]

In terms of autosomal genetics, Sicilians are actually closest to Ashkenazi Jews, then other southern Italians, Sephardis, Greeks, and Cypriots.

 

[Sile]

I see greek, north-african, albanian, maltese and spanish in sicilians...although the spanish is probably due to the fact that south Italians made up more then 50% of Spanish infantry during the height of the Spanish Empire.

On a side note - I was waiting at the airport a few weeks ago, waiting for a relative coming from Europe and asked some "italian" passengers this question - Are there many Italians on board, ..answer........not that many , most are sicilians ...........LOL
Tradition is king!

 

[adamo]

It's interesting to note when looking at a map of ancient Sicily, the Ionian colonies stretching from Himera to Tyndaris and Messene, Naxos, Catania, Leontina; also the Ionians were on Lipari islands; this also happens tone were the Siculi settled; they may have been Ionian Greeks. Syracuse and Camerina though were Dorian Greek settlements. So were Gela, Akragas, Heraclea (the Dorians were heraclids) and Selinus. Basically all of the northern, eastern and southern coasts of Sicily were colonized by Greeks; primarily of the Dorian and Ionian varieties. Then Panormus, Soleis, Eryx, Lilybaeum and Motya were ancient Phoenician sites. The indigenous SICANI people, who are thought to be celts, inhabit central Sicily, the Phoenicians are to the west and the Greeks to the east. Native Sicilian towns were Entella, Argyrium, Aetna and Segesta according to the map. To be quite honest, I'm stunned because these names seem to have a more Greek element in a way than Latin, but I am be wrong and they may have been typically west European......Segesta as was inhabited by the Elymians who came after the ancient arrival of the Phoenicians in that region.

 

[oreo_cookie]

It's interesting to note when looking at a map of ancient Sicily, the Ionian colonies stretching from Himera to Tyndaris and Messene, Naxos, Catania, Leontina; also the Ionians were on Lipari islands; this also happens tone were the Siculi settled; they may have been Ionian Greeks. Syracuse and Camerina though were Dorian Greek settlements. So were Gela, Akragas, Heraclea (the Dorians were heraclids) and Selinus. Basically all of the northern, eastern and southern coasts of Sicily were colonized by Greeks; primarily of the Dorian and Ionian varieties. Then Panormus, Soleis, Eryx, Lilybaeum and Motya were ancient Phoenician sites. The indigenous SICANI people, who are thought to be celts, inhabit central Sicily, the Phoenicians are to the west and the Greeks to the east. Native Sicilian towns were Entella, Argyrium, Aetna and Segesta according to the map. To be quite honest, I'm stunned because these names seem to have a more Greek element in a way than Latin, but I am be wrong and they may have been typically west European......Segesta as was inhabited by the Elymians who came after the ancient arrival of the Phoenicians in that region.

Sicanians were likely pre-Indo European, no one knows where they were from. But what I will say is, R1b is not common at all in central Sicily today so either Sicanians were not R1b, or they did not leave a strong genetic impact.

Western Sicilians, like those from Palermo, Trapani, etc. today tend to cluster closely with Ashkenazi Jews.. I have seen some of them get Ashkenazi as their top population match. Eastern Sicilians seem to be fairly close to Greek islanders, but not to mainland Greeks (since they have more Balkan influence today than in ancient times).

All Sicilians though are genetically close enough to one another that I'd doubt that there is any real genetic diversity there today.

 

[oreo_cookie]

Btw, I could post my photo since I am of Sicilian origins myself, but you never know who would see it. I have been mistaken mostly for Greek, Bulgarian, and Armenian in real life, and online I hear everything from French, Irish on one hand to Iranian on the other and everything between.

 

[Nobody1]

Sicanians were likely pre-Indo European, no one knows where they were from.

post #136
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28650-italian-genetics/page6

If you think the Ancient History of Sicily is obscure than join the discussions at History & Civilizations where much of it is discussed;

 

[oreo_cookie]

post #136
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28650-italian-genetics/page6

If you think the Ancient History of Sicily is obscure than join the discussions at History & Civilizations where much of it is discussed;

What the genetic data says to me is that the Neolithic population of Sicily was probably from the Caucasus or Levant, and then the Sikels (who were Indo-European Italics) settled and mixed with them, which would explain the genetics and appearance of inland Sicily where the Sikels ended up predominating; they are lighter and more continental European in appearance than those by the coast, but have a higher percentage of "Caucasus" type genes.

 

[Yaan]

Greeks and Northern Italians a lot. Albanians, Bulgarians,Serbs, French,Spanish etc a bit. But my choice is Greeks and Northern Italians

 

[Nobody1]

What the genetic data says to me is that the Neolithic population of Sicily was probably from the Caucasus or Levant, and then the Sikels (who were Indo-European Italics) settled and mixed with them, which would explain the genetics and appearance of inland Sicily where the Sikels ended up predominating; they are lighter and more continental European in appearance than those by the coast, but have a higher percentage of "Caucasus" type genes.

Thats a good look at it;

Although i would not associate the Sicani with the Neolithic;
They were expelled by the Ligurians in Iberia and that was most prob. during the Bronze-age ao their arrival cant be earlier;

The earliest inhabitants of Sicily were the Laestrygones and the mythical Cyclopes;
A lot of Mythology involved, but that there was a population recorded before the Sicani is thus given;
And its that population that must be the Neolithic one and many myths attested to;

 

[oreo_cookie]

Thats a good look at it;

Although i would not associate the Sicani with the Neolithic;
They were expelled by the Ligurians in Iberia and that was most prob. during the Bronze-age ao their arrival cant be earlier

There is no proof, neither genetic nor linguistic, that the Sicani came from Iberia.
That was written by an ancient Greek writer, but it has never been proven.

 

[Nobody1]

There is no proof, neither genetic nor linguistic, that the Sicani came from Iberia.
That was written by an ancient Greek writer, but it has never been proven.

The Language is UnClassified and only survived in inscriptions as a few personal names;
Genetically the High or Higher R1b-M269 in the modern-day pops. of the former Sicani territory can be seen as a ref. for starters;
Nowhere else in the surroundings (in and outside Sicily) is R1b-M269 that high (30.3% - DiGaetano 2009 122 samples west sicily) - so there must be a specialty to this area and that could be the Historically attested Iberian Sicani;

The Sicilians are a product of their history which is also reflected in the Hg (Y & mt) variety and also in autosomalDNA;
Its hard to extract the sole Sicani out of what is Neolithic, Greek, Phoenician/Punic, Normannic, Lombard or Saracen;

 

[oreo_cookie]

The Language is UnClassified and only survived in inscriptions as a few personal names;
Genetically the High or Higher R1b-M269 in the modern-day pops. of the former Sicani territory can be seen as a ref. for starters

It's not. Sicani were in central Sicily, where the most common haplogroups are J2, G2, and E1b. R1b is more common around Palermo along with J2.

 

[Nobody1]

It's not. Sicani were in central Sicily, where the most common haplogroups are J2, G2, and E1b. R1b is more common around Palermo along with J2.

Whats not?

The Sicani once occupied the entire Island before being pushed west by the Siculi;
The Elymians only had settled 2 towns; Eryx and Egesta - Thucydides;
And as i mentioned in terms of Hg's in post #51; the G2a, J2a, E-V13 and E-M123 could all come from diff. folks in diff. times starting with Neolithics and the Cyclopes and Laestrygonians;

 

[oreo_cookie]

Whats not?

The Sicani once occupied the entire Island before being pushed west by the Siculi;
The Elymians only had settled 2 towns; Eryx and Egesta - Thucydides;
And as i mentioned in terms of Hg's in post #51; the G2a, J2a, E-V13 and E-M123 could all come from diff. folks in diff. times starting with Neolithics and the Cyclopes and Laestrygonians;

Well autosomally, Iberians are not close to Sicilians so either the Sicanians were not Iberian, or the Sicanians did not have a significant genetic impact. Also keep in mind Sicilians and Calabrese are genetically identical and the Sicanians were not in Calabria.

 

[Nobody1]

Well autosomally, Iberians are not close to Sicilians so either the Sicanians were not Iberian, or the Sicanians did not have a significant genetic impact.

post #51
The Sicilians are a product of their history which is also reflected in the Hg (Y & mt) variety and also in autosomalDNA;
Its hard to extract the sole Sicani out of what is Neolithic, Greek, Phoenician/Punic, Normannic, Lombard or Saracen;

What i tried to say with this is that i dont think that any Sicilian samples today (modern-day) can be designated as purly Sicani; There is no pure or sole Sicani pop. in Sicily today so of course there are clear divergance from modern-day Iberians; But the Sicani element is still a part of the modern-day West Sicilians amongst the others;

Also keep in mind Sicilians and Calabrese are genetically identical and the Sicanians were not in Calabria.

Of course,
Also depends from where in Sicily the samples were from but overall the Sicilians cluster with other South Italians;
Which is of course based on the many Historic similarities and peoples; Sicani being not one of them (in common);

DiGaetano et al 2012-
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0043759

 

[oreo_cookie]

There is no pure or sole Sicani pop. in Sicily today so of course there are clear divergance from modern-day Iberians; But the Sicani element is still a part of the modern-day West Sicilians amongst the others;

You first have to prove to me conclusively that the Sicani were Iberians. There is no way to do it, and no evidence genetically of it.

Also, most Sicilians today are descended from those living by the coasts.. the areas with the most Norman, Phoenician, and Greek input and the least Sicani and Siculi, since they were driven to the center of the island.

 

[Nobody1]

You first have to prove to me conclusively that the Sicani were Iberians.

Both Philistus and Thucydides record the Sicani as being Iberians driven from Iberia by the invading Ligurians;

The conclusive part is that Scylax recorded Ligurians in that part of Iberia (N. of the Ebro) in which the Sicani once dwelled (and being expelled by the Ligurians) before reaching Sicily;

Timaeus on the other hand is the first to claim (but after Phil. and Thucy.) that the Sicani were Indigenous;
Diodorus sides with Timaeus and Dionysius sides with Philistus and Thucydides (Who of course are in turn confirmed by Scylax);

Also, most Sicilians today are descended from those living by the coasts.. the areas with the most Norman, Phoenician, and Greek input and the least Sicani and Siculi, since they were driven to the center of the island.

possible

 

[oreo_cookie]

Well in that case, the Sicani must have been genetically assimilated by invading groups, because there is nothing conclusive linking Sicilians to Iberians.. the type of R1b in Sicily is Italic, not Iberian. Greek and North African influence can be proven by certain sublades.. this is not true for Iberian influence in Sicily.

Also, people in Enna are mostly E1b1b and J2, without much R1b. And that was Sikel territory. You said Sicanians originally lived in all of Sicily.. well, I don't see how this could be if they were Iberian given that they left little to no impact anywhere.

 

[Nobody1]

You said Sicanians originally lived in all of Sicily.. well, I don't see how this could be if they were Iberian given that they left little to no impact anywhere.

Yes;
Before they were pushed West into Western Sicily by the invading Siculi emerging from the East - from the mainland;

Well in that case, the Sicani must have been genetically assimilated by invading groups, because there is nothing conclusive linking Sicilians to Iberians

Exactly;
Unfortunately DiGaetano et al 2009 did not test for the sub-clades of the 30.3% R1b-M269 (122 samples) in Western Sicily so not known how much is of DF27; Would be good to know that value; None the less R1b-M269 is far more common in the West than in the East and Surrounding Regions; Corresponds nicely with the Iberian Sicani and the West (as a base pop.);
Boattini et al 2013 only has samples from Eastern Sicily and from Agrigento (Greek area);

Enna is interesting because its also one of the major Medieval towns; Could you post the study of it?
Catania also important Medieval (Staufer) town had 11.5% R1b-U106 - 52 samples Boattini et al 2013
Or West Sicily which was core Normannic fiefdoms (unlike the east) had 8.2% I1-M253 - 122 samples DiGaetano et al 2009

Acc. to Busby et al 2011 the East of Sicily is higher in R1b-U152 (12%-16%)

 

[oreo_cookie]

Most of western Sicilian R1b is of Germanic and North Italian variant, not Iberian. Iberian R1b is rarely found outside of Iberia or Latin America.

Autosomally all Sicilians cluster closely, but not identical -- eastern Sicilians score closer to Greeks, central Sicilians are high in Caucasus and low in anything MENA or North European, and western Sicilians are highest in both MENA and Northern European.