Sicilians: Which groups overlap? (Multiple choice version)

[adamo]

As for hg J in Italy it peaks in northern Apulia near Lucera and Foggia just south of Campobasso were 45% of men belong to hg J. There's also a high of 25% hg G and 20% E frequencies in the region I believe.

 

[Angela]

Not very good analogies, my friend. Byzantine Sicily is separated from Magna Graecia by centuries.

As for the Goths and the Vandals, they were both supposedly East Germanic tribes, and Jordanes maintained that the Vandals spoke a Gothic language. Who knows how similar they were autosomally...probably pretty similar, but I like to wait for actual scientific data.

I'm not one of those people who are comfortable making authoritative pronouncements based on the fragments of writings we have from people whose knowledge of geography was rudimentary at best, and utterly confused at worst, and didn't even know that genetics existed.

I won't even get into detail about the peculiar credulity, from my perspective, with which some people approach the various origin myths that were created to increase the worth and dignity of some parvenu power. I mean, are we seriously going to believe Caesar's claim that his family descended from Venus? That's about as ridiculous, in my opinion, as the claim that some hut dwelling shepherds living above the Tiber were direct descendants of the lords of Troy.

Of course, I'm the tolerant sort...what people choose to believe is up to them...

And now, I think productive discussion on this particular aspect of the issue is about at an end.

 

[adamo]

E3b in the north is found at 16-18% maximums in Liguria and Veneto. Parts of Emilia-Romagna,Lombardy can have as high as 10%. Central Italy has about 10% E3b with 15% highs here and there. The south has 15-25% including Sicily. J2 although can be found at even higher frequencies in the center. North-central Italy scored 27% J2 and central Marche has 35% J2. Parts of Abruzzo have 20-25% as well whereas Tuscany and Umbria have more like 10-20%. Lazio has a solid 20% J2 and Campania has exact same frequencies with a 30% high in the southern Salerno regions. Basilicata seems to lack as much J2 but Calabria, probably molise and Apulia are J2 powerhouses like central Marche and Sicily.

 

[adamo]

We all know that Angela. Now, J2's heavier presence in Calabria could be explained by Greeks such as the Achaeans or Ionians and pre-historic Pelasgian tribes such as the Oenotrii and Chonii. Sicily has extensive Phoenician and Greek colonizing blood explaining J2's presence there, with several sites on the island even dedicated to Minos if Crete or Aeneas of Troy. Apulia had on it the unique Iapygian civilization of Crete and also some minor Greek presence. (The reason J2a is so high near Foggia and in Apulia is predominantly because of Pelasgian Iapygians of Crete who had an underlying Anatolian genetic structure. Basilicata was once known as Lucania so I believe the Oenotri sons of Lycaon are responsible for that. Coastal Campania was settled by Greeks and some Etruscans even descended to and founded Capua in Caserta. The Etruscans lived in the Tuscany/Umbria area and I suspect Greece to be behind the J2 in Abruzzo and Marche regions. Coastal Liguria and Veneto had some form of Greek or Pelasgian presence.

 

[adamo]

"Byzantine Sicily is separated from Magna Graecia by centuries. "......who the ____ doesn't know that one?

 

[adamo]

Anyways and the Lingones, senones, aedui, ambarri, cenomani, carnutes, bituriges aulerci were Gallic tribes, the boii were from Bohemia, I believe that the Ligurians and Umbrians were the Ambrones of Germany or Denmark near the Danube river basin; direct Halstatt pre-la tene types.

 

[Angela]

"Byzantine Sicily is separated from Magna Graecia by centuries. "......who the ____ doesn't know that one?

I don't know...maybe someone who doesn't know there was a Muslim Sicily? Or perhaps your irony eluded me...

 

[adamo]

Maybe they weren't even Halstatt types, I just feel they moved from Denmark south to Germany then to southwestern France and to north-itLy or something.

 

[adamo]

Yes but that was a very small period of Sicilian history, it's like saying Saracens raiding Sicilian coasts are the reason why Sicily's culture is what it is today: nonsense.

 

[adamo]

The Moors built mosques all across Andalusia, is Spain iraqistan in any way? No, not even genetically.

 

[oreo_cookie]

A Celtic group called the SICANI ended up on Sicily is all I'm trying to say Si-cane.

That may be true. I have yet to see any Sicilian cluster on a PCA plot with any modern "Celtic" group, though, which is what I have been saying all along. But then again, if people moved inland from the coasts during the Arab era, then the Sicani genes would have been diluted.

Also Sicani areas of the island should then be lighter pigmented and they're not.

 

[adamo]

I'm sorry but something HAS to explain the 30% R1b on Sicily. I mean it's not like I1 across Italy here 3-5%; it's 30% of the islands males! it would be nice to have at in-depth R1b clade analysis.

 

[Nobody1]

This is not about analogies or the Goths and we do not have to make this more complicated;
Its quite simple; If one wants to refer to a specific Historical era or a specific Historical event than just simply be specific about it; Its not that much of an effort;

I'm not one of those people who are comfortable making authoritative pronouncements based on the fragments of writings we have from people whose knowledge of geography was rudimentary at best, and utterly confused at worst, and didn't even know that genetics existed.

Sharp observation;
But modern-day scientists know a thing or two about Genetics; And if one of their studies actually reveals something that corresponds to something what one of those Crazy, Useless and app. oh so Retarded Ancient Scholar reported; Than thats something;

 

[Nobody1]

I'm sorry but something HAS to explain the 30% R1b on Sicily. I mean it's not like I1 across Italy here 3-5%; it's 30% of the islands males! it would be nice to have at in-depth R1b clade analysis.

Thats exactly my point as well;
DiGaetano et al 2009 has 30.3% R1b-M269 for West Sicily (122 samples)

No one is capable of knowing to what sub-clades of R1b-M269 all belong to this 30.3% because there was no further testing in that study;

Boattini et al 2013 has 141 samples from Sicily and does a further Analysis but most of these samples are from East Sicily or Agrigento - which was Greek (Dorian) colony in ancient times; So despite further Analysis and insight not much use concerning the 30.3% R1b-M269 in West Sicily and the Sicani;

Until there is more knowledge about the 30.3% R1b-M269 in the West Sicily there is no ruling out that the Sicani were not Iberians (as Historically recorded) on the contrary, the fact that West Sicily has a much higher frequency of R1b-M269 in compared to East Sicily suggests that in West Sicily something diff. than in East Sicily occurred and that could very well have been corresponding to the Iberian (as Historically recorded) Sicani;

 

[adamo]

I would say about half the samples everywhere in Italy end up being R-S28. So if 30% of Sicilians are R1b I would estimate 10-15% will be R-S28. There will be a small high of R-M269* and R-L23 lineages where Greeks settled.

 

[Angela]

The following excerpts from the Chiarelli book may prove helpful in understanding why there isn's as much internal structure in Sicily as one might expect:

"The population that lived outside direct Muslim authority was semi-independent, living under some Byzantine protection probably until 290/902, when the whole island seems to have placed under Palermo's control...This territory was basically restricted to the region of Val Demone/San Marco, especially in the mountainous areas of Etna and the Peloritani chain of mountains. These independent area remained small and few in number, but by the Kalbid period they appear to be nonesixtent, since the whole island came under Palermo's control."

In the middle of the 4th/10th century, the Fatimids took control of the island. Whereas the Aghlabids kept many concquereed cities paying tribute, the Fatimids appear to have placed all newly conquered Byzantine territory under their direct control...Along with their policy of subjugating the whole island, the Fatimids pursued a policy of expanding Muslim colonization by relocating people from one region to another. Thus all the newly subjugated towns and cities in the predominant Christian areas of the northeast, especially the Val Demone/San Marco, had a Muslim population settled with them. The indigenous inhabitants would sometimes flee, leaving the jund free to acquire the abandoned lands, such as in the case of Taormina in 351/962, when many of the populace were reduced to slavery...The government then relocated Muslims from the other parts of the island and settled them in Taormina. (pages 162-163)

"In the interior of the island there were many settlements made up of what the Sicilian scholar Carmelo Trasselli cals eagle nest communities. These were composed of castles and groups of homes barely accessible by only one road or by donkey path between two rocky mountains separated by steep valleys. These hilltop communities were reoccupied during the Arab period after their their apparent abandonment during late Roman times. It is possible that these sites were settled by Berbers from the regions of North Africa where such hilltop settlements were common and preferred. It appears that the interior was composed of less numerous communities than today... (page 161)

 

[adamo]

Northwestern italy predictably has a peak in P-312* lineages with 10% in the Piemont region, 20% in Liguria and 10% near lake Como. Italy doesn't have any L-23 either.

 

[Nobody1]

I would say about half the samples everywhere in Italy end up being R-S28. So if 30% of Sicilians are R1b I would estimate 10-15% will be R-S28. There will be a small high of R-M269* and R-L23 lineages where Greeks settled.

Acc. to Busby et al 2011 revealed that R1b-U152 is in fact higher in the East of Sicily and not in the West;
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full

West Sicily is in 6-11% R1b-U152 and 5-9% is in R1b-U106 so acc. to Busby et al 2011 at least ~11% is U106/U152 what the rest is (of 30.3% R1b-M269) is still not known; But there is more M269 in the West than in the East;

 

[adamo]

Cuneo, Piemont has 54% R1b if which 37% is R-S28. 10% is P312* and one was L-21. Genoa, Liguria has 52% R1b of which 22% is R-S28, 20% is P312* and 6% were R-M269*. 4% were L-21. In Como Lombardy 54% R1b; 22% R-S28, 10% P312*, 10% R-M269, 7-8% R-S21 and like 3-4% L21. Brescia has 64% R1b and 51% R-S28. Another 5% are P-312* others found at 1-3%. 22% of the 30% R1b in Vicenza is R-S28 as well.

 

[adamo]

Treviso has 53% R1b 33% R-S28 , 10% R-M269*, 5-8% u-106; like 3-4% P312. Bologna has 59% R1b and 31% U-152. 10% are L-21 here , 7% M269, 7% P312 and 3-4% u-106.