Parthenon marbles: should they come back?

[Aberdeen]

By the way, why so many Canadians in here and generally outsiders?
Where are the real Eurobros?

I am sure that the real Eurobros will support me. Canadians are very tightly related to the Brits, and of course, like them, they try to be nice to everyone else, except in the case when their direct interests are at stake. What a race these Brits are! They tell you one thing and they mean whatever ...

Why are there so many Americans on this forum, flying a false flag about what country they live in? Europeans living in Canada and Canadian citizens born elsewhere aren't ashamed to tell the world that they live in Canada. So, what's up with some of you Americans?

The majority of Canadians on here seem to be immigrants from Europe. And, while I can only speculate as to the reason they come here, it might have something to do with missing Europe. Or maybe living in a country other than the country of their origin makes them more likely to be interested in things like genetics and history. But I don't really know - I'm sure we all have our own stories. And, actually, only about 40% of the Canadian population is of British descent. A lot are of Irish, French or German descent, and there are people here whose ancestors came from every corner of the world, not to mention the Native population.

In my case, I'm mostly of British descent but from a family that's been in Canada for many generations, and I don't particularly identify with the Brits. I generally like Scottish people but don't feel any nationalistic affinity with them, and I've found a lot of English people to be rather abnoxious, to be honest.

What does any of this have to do with the Elgin Marbles?

 

[Echetlaeus]

Why are there so many Americans on this forum, flying a false flag about what country they live in? Europeans living in Canada and Canadian citizens born elsewhere aren't ashamed to tell the world that they live in Canada. So, what's up with some of you Americans?

The majority of Canadians on here seem to be immigrants from Europe. And, while I can only speculate as to the reason they come here, it might have something to do with missing Europe. Or maybe living in a country other than the country of their origin makes them more likely to be interested in things like genetics and history. But I don't really know - I'm sure we all have our own stories. And, actually, only about 40% of the Canadian population is of British descent. A lot are of Irish, French or German descent, and there are people here whose ancestors came from every corner of the world, not to mention the Native population.

In my case, I'm mostly of British descent but from a family that's been in Canada for many generations, and I don't particularly identify with the Brits. I generally like Scottish people but don't feel any nationalistic affinity with them, and I've found a lot of English people to be rather abnoxious, to be honest.

What does any of this have to do with the Elgin Marbles?

What false flag, I am studying in the USA, but I am from Greece. Is that so difficult to understand?
As a Brit you are biased!

 

[hope]

It should be sent to Nashville where a proper Parthenon stands in it's top glory.

And where Athina feels at home:

I think Greeks should rebuild whole Acropolis to show first that they care about their heritage.

Or at least learn to properly take care of those they still have!
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/feb/26/greece-acropolis-debt-crisis-athens

 

[LeBrok]

Or at least learn to properly take care of those they still have!
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/feb/26/greece-acropolis-debt-crisis-athens

Exactly. I'm afraid that, due to financial problems and lack of funds for heritage and museums, Greeks will receive the marbles and put it in storage.

About rebuilding versus taking care of ruins. I think some of the greatest monuments should be restored to their former glory. We have so much more joy and interest when looking at all the details and beauty of finished "product" than to look only at some remaining foundations of ancient buildings or cities. Even if half of it will be considered fake, when rebuilt, it still can carry a better educational and esthetic value to the population.

Do we consider Louvre or Versailles fake? Surely it is not all original anymore. I'm sure the original roof, or roof covering was replaced. I'm sure there were fires that destroyed parts of the palace, and it wasn't rebuilt exactly same way. Some walls were repainted or restuccoed few times. Electrical, plumbing and heating was added. Etc, etc.

So what would be a crime to rebuild coliseum for example. Even better, lets rebuild it and introduce gladiator shows for tourists there. Fake fights as american wrestling, lol, but I'm sure tourists would leave twice the money for the grand experience. Eat some roman treats (ala popcorn) and drink Roman beer, well at least try, lol. Dress in toga of senators, judge with your thumbs, and have a picture with fake cezar. At least I would pay so much more than going to see only ruins.

 

[Echetlaeus]

I understand that we have financial problems. However this by no means make you the owners of the marbles. Per your statements above (Canadian guy and English woman), if you want to have something finished and admire its looks, just take the blueprint and make your own. We want these Marbles back because they belong to our heritage.

Why don't you destroy the Stonehenge and create a new one in its position? Also, how about giving us the Stonehenge? Then I will say that we are equal.

 

[ΠΑΝΑΞ]

(?) Is it possible please for someone to call the police! We also pleased for a doctor or a veterin-"aryan;". (dont hurry! take your time! we are here, waiting...for centuries.)

 

[Echetlaeus]

The Brits have committed hubris.. Soon the nemesis will come due to the anathema that was made in the first place.
And you may not like today's Parthenon so much because the Thief Lord Elgin, had his men cut the Marbles using tremendous brutality ...

"Blind are the eyes that do not shed tears while seeing, O, Greece beloved, your sacred objects plundered by profane English hands that have again wounded your aching bosom and snatched your gods, gods that hate England's abominable north climate."
--- Lord Byron ---

 

[Angela]

Things are getting a little overwrought, me thinks.

I have some sympathy for the Greeks in this matter, but mainly because the appropriation or mis-appropriation of the Marbles took place within a relatively recent time frame.

I think there's a loosely analogous situation in what took place during World War II. The Nazis looted massive amounts of art and artifacts from museums and individuals alike. After passing through various hands, some of these pieces wound up in other museums. The descendents of the original owners have successfully brought suit for their return. Provenance matters in the art world. It's a question of buyer beware. You are supposed to do due diligence in order to discover if the seller has undisputed title to the object in question, much as is the case when you buy a house, for example.

However, I take and agree with Aberdeen's point that there has to be some sort of time limit. Just to use another example, should Venice return its lions to Constantinople? Aside from the fact that in this particular case the Byzantine Empire no longer exists, and this would mean a return to the conquerors of Byzantium, which could hardly be considered appropriate, this kind of thing, if extended to all art works removed by one conquering empire or another back to the dawn of history, would create mass chaos. I think some things just have to be accepted as a done deal.

Interesting the discussion about "re-doing" the ancient wonders or places. I was in Las Vegas a few years ago, and was in both the Bellagio and the Venetian. They're certainly beautiful, and in more pristine condition than the originals, but they're not REAL. Aside from everything else, it would cost the earth, literally, to create them using the actual materials. It's just plastic a lot of it, and you can TELL. Over and beyond that, it's the patina of age that makes some of these things and places so beautiful, and it's knowing that you're walking in the footsteps of the ancients that is so awe-inspiring. So, for those who won't be able to see the real thing, or even as a way of opening up a portal into the past for all of us (I think if someone recreated Pompeii, they could make a fortune, for example) it's fine, but leave the originals alone, please.

It's sort of the same way I feel about plastic surgery I suppose. I wouldn't want a beloved face, careworn perhaps, with some wrinkles and greying hair (or balding), cut and stitched and hair plugged in order to get some facsimile of the beauty it had in its youth. It's beautiful now, just beautiful in a different way. Of course, I know I'm probably in a minority in this one.

 

[Aberdeen]

You make some good points, Angela. However, I have a bit more sympathy for the Greeks than I admitted to OP, and it's partly because I think location matters a lot when it comes to appreciating ancient artifacts. The plastic nature of what Vegas has produced no doubt detracts from one's ability to appreciate it, but I think if a person was able to dump some ancient monument somewhere on the Vegas strip, it would probably still look tacky, just because of the context. My main reason for not wanting to see the Marbles returned, and it's more important to me even than the time argument, is because I don't think Greece would be able to properly take care of the Marbles if they were returned. Not now, and there have been a lot of other periods of instability in Greece during the modern period. If a Greek person really wants to see the Marbles, I think they won't be able to appreciate them in the same way by going to the British Museum as they would if they could look at the Marbles as properly restored and protected artifacts in their original location in Greece. BUT that ain't gonna happen - if Greece gets the Marbles back any time soon, they'll probably either be dumped into storage or secretly and illegally sold to some Russian oligarch who wants them to furnish his new mansion. They're better off in the British Museum, IMO.

 

[Gracchus]

In my opinion, the Parthenon Marbles should be returned to Greece.
I think it?s a good idea that British Museum return many other "items" to many countries.
always thinking that these countries are able to keep them.

 

[Echetlaeus]

OP approves the statement of Angela and Gracchus.
No wonder they are Southern bros like me :grin:

P.S. There is a spelling mistake in the poll, can the mod fix that, please?