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Well, I've been looking on the internet and the find near Afantova Gora that does show dental features that seem related to Asians is the Listvenka child, a child's mandible found nearby. It would be very interesting to see either the dating or DNA extracted from it. In this find the permanent molars, which if I understand correctly are crucial to determine sinodonty, had not yet erupted. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if this means that one can't or can determine sinodonty, though.
4. Mongoloid? - Ket people: Russian video
Of great importance to Kets are dolls, described as "an animal shoulder bone wrapped in a scrap of cloth simulating clothing." [20] One adult Ket, who had been careless with a cigarette, said, "It's a shame I don't have my doll. My house burnt down together with my dolls."[21] Kets regard their dolls as household deities, which sleep in daytime and protect them at night.[22]
The passage behind the link goes “Listvenka is one of the very few Pleistocene Siberian sites where human remains have been found. In this case the find was a fragment of a child’s lower jaw. The unerupted lower first permanent molars had features more commonly found in Northeast Asian Sinodonts, and less frequently in Eurodonts.”
Then there is a nice photo with a text:
“The Listvenka child’s permanent lower first molars, mesial surface at the top. These pristine unerupted teeth exhibit two morphological traits commonly found in Modern Asian populations, but rarely in European populations. They are (1) the deflecting wrinkle, and (2) the occurrence of cusp 6. Two other but less diagnostic traits that favour an Asian affiliation are (3) the protostylid pit, and (4) the absence of cusp 7. Hence, the Listvenka child has a higher probability of having had a late Pleistocene Asian, rather than European, affiliation.”
It may not be conclusive evidence, but it is hard evidence anyway.
It may not be conclusive evidence, but it is hard evidence anyway.
Yes, indeed! Recent genetic evidence (Refined structure in haplogroup K-M526 (Karafet et al. 2014)) shows that there has been a major gene flow from east to west during the Upper Palaeolithic. Moreover and in addition to that, it looks like the Europeans and East Asians both have their share of ancient Siberian migrations (cf. Tianyuan man who was equally close to Europeans and East Asians). Perhaps we soon learn more on this shared ancestry when Pääbo’s Ust Ishim paper is published.
As for yDNA P, its route to Siberia is a higly exciting issue. However, provided that the analysis of the morphological traits of Afontova Gora and Mal’ta individuals is correct - and I am now deliberately provocative - the current ancient evidence in Siberia and America is as follows:
Mal’ta boy, 24 kya, yDNA R, mtDNA U, Mongoloid race
Afontova Gora man, 17 kya, yDNA Q, mtDNA R, Mongoloid race
Anzick boy, 12.5 kya, yDNA Q, mtDNA D4, with all probability of Mongoloid race
Saqqaq man, 4 kya, yDNA Q1a*, mtDNA D2a1 (D4e1), with all probability of Mongoloid race
Let’s see if yDNA C pops up some day somewhere in pre-Ice Age Siberian burials.
I'd be surprised if Mal'ta Boy could be clearly defined as Mongoloid or Caucasian - I'm not sure such categories would apply to people from such an early period. We now have definite categories, after thousands of years of separation of different ethnic groups, but occasionally we still see among Europeans people who look rather "Asian", such as the Icelandic singer Bjork. I'll bet if we knew her DNA info, it would be either a typical "European" type or else would be one of those categories that are still found in Europe although now rare, but people like that represent a physical type that I think would have probably been pretty much the norm in Europe prior to the Neolithic.
Moreover and in addition to that, it looks like the Europeans and East Asians both have their share of ancient Siberian migrations (cf. Tianyuan man who was equally close to Europeans and East Asians). Perhaps we soon learn more on this shared ancestry when Pääbo’s Ust Ishim paper is published.
I'd be surprised if Mal'ta Boy could be clearly defined as Mongoloid or Caucasian - I'm not sure such categories would apply to people from such an early period. We now have definite categories, after thousands of years of separation of different ethnic groups, but occasionally we still see among Europeans people who look rather "Asian", such as the Icelandic singer Bjork. I'll bet if we knew her DNA info, it would be either a typical "European" type or else would be one of those categories that are still found in Europe although now rare, but people like that represent a physical type that I think would have probably been pretty much the norm in Europe prior to the Neolithic.
This is the most intriguing part of this preprint as it suggests that European/East Asian genetic differentiation may not only be due to the their post-UP divergence, but also to older strands of ancestry. Such deep differentiation may be related to the ~100kya settlement of the Near East (but not East Asia) by anatomically modern humans and the recent evidence for a deep "Basal Eurasian" lineage in Europeans but not East Asians.
Epoch, please read carefully Dienekes post “Paleoamericanodyssey tweets on 24,000-year old Mal'ta Siberian” (October 18, 2013).
I would like to add the following question: Evidence to what exactly?
Among populations of the world, Selkups, Kets and Khantys are closest to Malta.
Eskimos are closer to Malta than all of those people.
As I said, I was deliberately provocative. In reality, I do not suggest that Malta boy looked like Northern or Southern Chinese, but he surely didn’t look like a modern Eastern European either. Among populations of the world, Selkups, Kets and Khantys are closest to Malta. If we would like to imagine what he looked like, we should google for these people. However, I am sure that they have recently mixed with people from Eastern Europe, so I do not believe that, for example, blondism is old in Siberia.
Please look at the K16 results of the Malta boy (Eurogenes Another look at the Lazaridis et al. ancient genomes preprint, January 8, 2014)
Cream colour (ANE?) c. 37%
Blue (European) c. 23%
Dark green (Northern Amerind) c. 10%
Brown (Chippewyan Amerind) c. 10%
Light blue (Onge) c. 10%
Light green (ASI) c. 7%
Blue green (Karitiana) c. 3%
I wonder if that 17% ASI and Onge ancestry represents Malta boy’s yDNA R’s trail from Southeast Asia to Siberia through India. Alekseev’s Negroid elements could be quite conveniently linked with ASI and Onge components, although the skeletons that Alekseev analyzed were Neolithic. On the other hand, the fact that the Malta boy had European style teeth could indicate a mixture with people from Europe. His Amerind ancestry is considerable, but it is mainly northern Amerind ancestry. I wonder if this is an indication that there were several migrations to America and Malta boy’s population is related, in particular, to a northern migration.
According to Dodecad V3 run, I score 1.22% Southeast Asian, 1.24% South Asian and 5.65% Northeast Asian and my Eurogenes ANE percentage is 18.8%. So, my Western Siberian ancestry might be in 12% range.
Epoch, please read carefully Dienekes post “Paleoamericanodyssey tweets on 24,000-year old Mal'ta Siberian” (October 18, 2013).
I think you're quite mistaken, and that you're arguing backwards, timewise. In genetic terms, Mal'ta Boy wasn't actually 37% ANE, 23% European, 10% Northern Amerind, etc. He was part of a group of people who were ancestral to folks in those categories.
I am aware that it is also true that way, but if that is the only possible direction of gene flow, then we should conclude that there has been an important gene flow from Siberia to ASI and Onge which I do not find plausible.
@DienekesMore at Dienekes, the divergence between Africans and non-Africans as well as the divergence between West Eurasians and East Asians might have taken place in Africa itself before migrations:
LINK
Well, then also Indians diverged from West Eurasians in Africa, and, since we know now that yDNA P originates in Southeast Asia, his clan must belong to that East Asian group!
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