How did oaks repopulate Europe?

[LeBrok]

people living in Franchtti cave, Peleponesos
13000 years ago they got obsidian from the island Melos (120 km ofshore) and they started to grow bitter vetch and pistachios, which they got from Anatolia

"to grow them" is an implied term. We don't know if they purposely grew them, or just brought few plants and nuts as food for the boat trip with obsidian shipment and "contaminated" local ecosystem with seeds. Afterwords plants grew without human help. It is possible that they brought nuts and planted them on purpose, but accidental seeding explains it as well.

mesolithic people in Europe burned down stretches of land, especially near lakes to stimulate the growth of certain plants which were food for the game they hunted

Again the purpose is implied. Accidental fires will start closer to dense populations more often than in wilderness.

the Ainu people in Japan harvested acorns on a big scale

I'm not questioning eating them. I'm questioning acorns being a main staple food and big scale planting, as per OEC posts.

there are plenty of examples of huntergatherers starting to collect food from plants and stimulating the growth of these plants

Yes, the smaller fast growing plants, like seasonal veggies. With trees not that much.

if agriculture hadn't spread from a few centers, many more crops would have been develloped localy by huntergatherers living in forested areas

This is the same scenario with every edible plant. Wheat and rice were the main ones, because they gave the best bang for the money, so to speak. Without wheat or rice there would be something else, or just extensive herding of animals like in steppes and mountains.

 

[Angela]

Have you tried any of these recipes, Angela? I have actually had a porridge type meal made from acorns with raspberries [not by choice but as way of experiment] It was palatable....cold and a bit gloppy.. but palatable..:wary2:

Well, first off, foods should never, in my opinion, be eaten cold, other than salad or fruits or baked goods. When I worked for my uncle in his restaurant, the worst chef rants would often be reserved for the poor waiter who let the food get cold after it was plated. Any kind of porridge turns gelatinous, in my opinion, as soon as it starts to cool. I don't even like oatmeal unless it's drowned in milk, dusted with so much sugar that it looks like Mont Blanc, and heaped with apples and raisins and anything else I can find.

No, I haven't ever eaten acorns. The particular book I was referencing was produced by our local ethnographic museum. The only people I know who actually ate them are the people who lived through World War II, and they were eaten when even the chestnuts were starting to get over-gathered. The pigs are given them though...makes them nice and fat.

Chestnuts can make you fat as well,of course, even if they seem to be slightly lower in calories than some of the other "nuts". (They're so sweet and delicious though. Too sweet in some ways. I love them just roasted, or in soup, or as part of a stuffing, or cooked with pork, but cakes made with it are too sweet for my taste.) My mom always said that people were at their fattest in the fall...grapes, figs, chestnuts, new oil, and even fresh pork. (It's definitely harder to be restrained in the fall and winter, and as we approach the Christmas Season, there should be flashing red lights spelling out
"DANGER". )

The whole subject of tannins in food is interesting. I learned from 23andme that some people genetically "taste" bitter things more strongly. In some ways you would think that would be selected for, as poisonous things are often bitter. On the other hand, if the plant is still edible, you would think it would be adaptive not to find tannins quite so "bitter". Then there's the whole subject of tannins in wine. For someone who so dislikes tannins in chestnuts etc., I've become quite fond of California Cabernets.

 

[LeBrok]

I don`t think the preparation of them would necessarily be a reason to overlook them and compared to making traps or nets, trekking distances to gather foodstuffs or hunt down wild game, gathering a few acorns and throwing them onto fire would be easy work. Grandmother could even do this while other women were off gathering perhaps.

I'm not sure how roasting on fire deals with detoxification? If they are boiled, they need 2-3 changes or water, and this is no easy task when HGs don't have clay pots yet.

I think they might have better economic sense to be fed to the pigs, who can digest and love eating them (the real adaptation of wild boar of European forests to its the main staple), and then eat delicious pork. And eating pork is European HG adaptation to its main staple food. We love it and can digest without poisonous reaction, even raw.
My point was that what we eat and how we digest is a window into our culinary past. We are very adapted with joy of eating and ease of digestion to main staples of ancestral foods. On this base I can definitely say that acorns were never the main staple of European's food.

 

[Aberdeen]

I'm not sure how roasting on fire deals with detoxification? If they are boiled, they need 2-3 changes or water, and this is no easy task when HGs don't have clay pots yet.

I think they might have better economic sense to be fed to the pigs, who can digest and love eating them (the real adaptation of wild boar of European forests to its the main staple), and then eat delicious pork. And eating pork is European HG adaptation to its main staple food. We love it and can digest without poisonous reaction, even raw.
My point was that what we eat and how we digest is a window into our culinary past. We are very adapted with joy of eating and ease of digestion to main staples of ancestral foods. On this base I can definitely say that acorns were never the main staple of European's food.

I can imagine acorns being eaten by peasants during the Middle Ages, if they were serfs tied to the land but the landowner kept most of the grain. As you said, a food of last resort. But the OP was talking about Europe being repopulated after the last Glacial Maximum, when most of Europe was empty and it would have still been fairly easy at that point to find uninhabited areas. And if I was a Paleolithic person trying to make a living with stone age technology, I'd find a nice river delta or lake where there was plenty of fish and waterfowl, and lots of edible plants along the waterway. And it would preferably be near a grassland area where there was lots of game. I don't think the oak forests would hold much attraction for me because, apart from acorns and the occasional patch of blueberries, there wouldn't be a lot to eat. Game would be much scarcer in a forest than on the plains and there would be fewer salad type plants. In old growth forest, there's not much there except the trees and a few mushrooms. Tree shade limits other vegetation.

 

[hope]

I don't even like oatmeal unless it's drowned in milk, dusted with so much sugar that it looks like Mont Blanc, and heaped with apples and raisins and anything else I can find.

No, I don`t much like oatmeal either Angela, regardless of what you might add. I always think it more akin to something you use to make paper mache. There is however one brand that I have eaten, it`s a powder form not the oat pieces. Add to warm milk, big spoonful of sugar and generous helping of cream...not good for diet but very tasty.

No, I haven't ever eaten acorns. The particular book I was referencing was produced by our local ethnographic museum. The only people I know who actually ate them are the people who lived through World War II, and they were eaten when even the chestnuts were starting to get over-gathered.

Well I had my acorn porridge about two years ago, not during WW11....
Not so keen on chestnuts, I always feel they have an "earthy" taste.

The whole subject of tannins in food is interesting. I learned from 23andme that some people genetically "taste" bitter things more strongly. In some ways you would think that would be selected for, as poisonous things are often bitter. On the other hand, if the plant is still edible, you would think it would be adaptive not to find tannins quite so "bitter". Then there's the whole subject of tannins in wine. For someone who so dislikes tannins in chestnuts etc., I've become quite fond of California Cabernets.

Yes, oddly many children often will not eat greens for a time when young, seems it may be an old instinct against poisonous food. I can`t comment on the Cabernet, I really don`t like wine...or any alcohol. So you have that and I`ll have double portion of figs and grapes ....

 

[hope]

I'm not sure how roasting on fire deals with detoxification? If they are boiled, they need 2-3 changes or water, and this is no easy task when HGs don't have clay pots yet.

I think they might have better economic sense to be fed to the pigs, who can digest and love eating them (the real adaptation of wild boar of European forests to its the main staple), and then eat delicious pork. And eating pork is European HG adaptation to its main staple food. We love it and can digest without poisonous reaction, even raw.
My point was that what we eat and how we digest is a window into our culinary past. We are very adapted with joy of eating and ease of digestion to main staples of ancestral foods. On this base I can definitely say that acorns were never the main staple of European's food.

No, the fire roasting makes shells brittle or crack. Then you just poke out nut, hit them with a stone to get some large oat size pieces. You can easily put this in your straw basket and take to stream to soak. The mixture clings together so doesn`t wash out. I`m sure there are ways to soak them if you need to. When they are free of tannins, you can add to warm water, throw some berries in and hey presto..mesolithic porridge.
Or alternatively as you say, let the pigs eat them, then eat the pig.

 

[Aberdeen]

I found a paper on this subject, called "An Iberian perspective on Uppper Paleolithic plant consumption" by Jonathan A. Haws of the Universade do Algarve/University of Louisville, and it includes a ton of references to other papers. The paper by Mr. Haws does talk about acorn consumption during the Paleolithic and he does mention some disagreement about how important acorns were to Iberian people during the Upper Paleolithic. He also mentioned something Hope referred to, large variances in the amount of acorns from year to year. He also mentioned an important plant source I had forgotten about, pine nuts. They're quite tasty and nutritious.

www.academia.edu/1083949/An_Iberian_persp

 

[Angela]

I found a paper on this subject, called "An Iberian perspective on Uppper Paleolithic plant consumption" by Jonathan A. Haws of the Universade do Algarve/University of Louisville, and it includes a ton of references to other papers. The paper by Mr. Haws does talk about acorn consumption during the Paleolithic and he does mention some disagreement about how important acorns were to Iberian people during the Upper Paleolithic. He also mentioned something Hope referred to, large variances in the amount of acorns from year to year. He also mentioned an important plant source I had forgotten about, pine nuts. They're quite tasty and nutritious.

www.academia.edu/1083949/An_Iberian_persp

Now, you're talking:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-SGPR2k3l1...LxCRCuLdKww/s1600/pignoli+cookies+%289%29.JPG

http://lequizzle.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/pesto-ingredients.jpg

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

I'll definitely be reading the paper. Food, including ancient food, is an interest of mine. (Who could have guessed it?:embarassed: )

A friend gave me a copy of a book called "A Mediterranean Feast" by Clifford A. Wright. It's a history of the food of the Mediterranean Basin, and contains 500 recipes in addition to the history. I've read every one of the 760 pages. :grin:

I thought I'd check, but no recipes for acorns. Quite a few for chestnuts and pinoli, including spinach with raisins and pinoli, in addition to the cookies and the pesto. There's also a mention of a pine nut omelette from the Languedoc. That was new to me.

You know, you can learn a lot about migrations by studying food, and if not about migrations, about trade routes. I never knew much about Corsican food until I read the book, for example, but a lot of the recipes are just like mine, which makes sense as it was ruled by both Liguria and Toscana, and there was migration from both places.

 

[hope]

I found a paper on this subject, called "An Iberian perspective on Uppper Paleolithic plant consumption" by Jonathan A. Haws of the Universade do Algarve/University of Louisville, and it includes a ton of references to other papers. The paper by Mr. Haws does talk about acorn consumption during the Paleolithic and he does mention some disagreement about how important acorns were to Iberian people during the Upper Paleolithic. He also mentioned something Hope referred to, large variances in the amount of acorns from year to year. He also mentioned an important plant source I had forgotten about, pine nuts. They're quite tasty and nutritious.

www.academia.edu/1083949/An_Iberian_persp

Excellent paper Aberdeen, lots of information....need to read again to get all the bits and pieces...

 

[oldeuropeanculture]

LeBrok, maybe you should read this:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30620-Acorns-in-Archaeology

You should have a look at the latest anthropological theories about the development of agriculture from cultivation of wild plants...Agriculture means growing food on fields. You can grow food in orchards and cultivated forests too...

Acorns were still staple starch food in the 19th and 20th century in certain areas of Europe (particularly in the Serbian lands of the Balkans where oak forests were specifically cultivated for acorn collection) and in Western Asia. I will write about this in one of my next posts.

 

[oldeuropeanculture]

In the "Acorns in archaeology" post i talk about mesolithic cultures and early neolithic cultures. As you know, the difference between the mesolighic and neolithic is grain agriculture, which is confirmed by appearance of grinding stones, which were presumed to have been used for grinding grain. However after the organic material from the early "neolithic" sites was analized it has been proven that the grinding stones ground acorns. All early neolithic cultures were not agricultural but forest cultivating cultures.

 

[LeBrok]

LeBrok, maybe you should read this:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30620-Acorns-in-Archaeology

You should have a look at the latest anthropological theories about the development of agriculture from cultivation of wild plants...Agriculture means growing food on fields. You can grow food in orchards and cultivated forests too...

Acorns were still staple starch food in the 19th and 20th century in certain areas of Europe (particularly in the Serbian lands of the Balkans where oak forests were specifically cultivated for acorn collection) and in Western Asia. I will write about this in one of my next posts.

Where is the archeological proof for cultivated forests, in this case cultivated meaning planted by people for acorn supply.

Secondly, you said "main staple food" in previous post, and this is out of the question, it never was a main staple. More like a supplement food, especially in times of hunger. If it was a staple food, people would continue planting oak orchards the same way as we continue planting olive, apple, and extensive variety of other other fruit and nuts trees. Oak orchards don't exist.

 

[oldeuropeanculture]

One more thing. These acorn eating cultures were all complex cultures on a high level of technological development. Do you think that people who were able to make ground hafted axes, dugout canoes, large villages, fired pottery, couldn't figure our that trees grow from nuts and seeds and that more nut and seed trees mean more nuts? And how long before they start clearing inedible treas and planting edible ones?

 

[oldeuropeanculture]

LeBrok

Oak orchards don't exist.

They do, you just don't know about them. They existed in Iberia, Balkans and West Asia until early 20th century...

 

[LeBrok]

One more thing. These acorn eating cultures were all complex cultures on a high level of technological development. Do you think that people who were able to make ground hafted axes, dugout canoes, large villages, fired pottery, couldn't figure our that trees grow from nuts and seeds and that more nut and seed trees mean more nuts? And how long before they start clearing inedible treas and planting edible ones?

And inspite of all of these technological developments they were dying off in times of failed crops. Dying off substantially, creating depopulated lands and dark ages in our history. First collapse of farming in central Europe happened around 4,000 BC, another one just before Corded Ware, third one was the bronze age collapse started with couple of decades of cold weather, and the recent one was 500-650 CE, and here is why. In these hard times they ate whatever was edible, as all of us would, just to survive. Also in times of war when enemy or friendly army takes all village's food people need to get really creative with their menu, especially when you have 6 hungry kids at home.

Do you understand concept of biological adaptation to main food? We don't have it if it comes to acorns, but pigs do. Now guess whose main food staple was the acorn.