Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

Map of work "Early Scythians and the ancient East. On the history of the formation of the Scythian culture "Pogrebova M.N, Raevskii D.S, 1992, showing the boundary of the formation of the early Scythian culture complex.
http://f-lite.ru/lfp/s52.radikal.ru/i135/1403/d6/0eed8b3e6362.jpg/htm


"Borders" of early Scythian culture(West Caucasus, and North-West Iran) and haplogroup G
http://f-lite.ru/lfp/s017.radikal.ru/i410/1403/51/ea4128e4bb03.jpg/htm
http://alterling2.narod.ru/Il/ScythMeison1R.jpg

Interesting. I always thought Scythians were leftovers of Iranian tribes who didn't migrated South and East. Instead they expanded West into Ukraine area. However the back migration from Near East might explain their linguistic similarities to Iranian varieties of Near East than to old IE Sanskrit.
Can we find flow of specific Anatolian haplogroups into Ukraine area in fairly substantial level?
 
Interesting. I always thought Scythians were leftovers of Iranian tribes who didn't migrated South and East. Instead they expanded West into Ukraine area. However the back migration from Near East might explain their linguistic similarities to Iranian varieties of Near East than to old IE Sanskrit.
Can we find flow of specific Anatolian haplogroups into Ukraine area in fairly substantial level?
There are some tested Karaites(Kipchak-Cuman speaking people, they recognize the Old testament, but they don't recognize the Torah) mostly from Crimea
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/karaites.html
Eastern European Karaites have
6*J2,, 30%
5*E1b1b1,, 25%
4*G2a,, 20%
3*J1,, 15%
1*L2a,, 5%
1*R1b1a2,, 5%


In 1971 Academician V.P. Alekseev based on craniological parameters study of population from Khazar town Sarkel (Lower Don) came to the conclusion that the Karaites are the product of mixing of Khazars with local (Crimean) tribes (such as the Sarmatians, Sarmato-Alanians, Alans, Goths and perhaps the Greeks).

Some pictures of Karaites people http://www.agatov.com/content/view/3731/58/
http://www.religion.in.ua/uploads/posts/2013-08/1376483331_0.jpg
http://bike-crimea.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/karaimi.jpg
http://www.agatov.com/images/stories/Katalog/tataru/p1600875.jpg
http://www.agatov.com/images/stories/Katalog/tataru/p1600817.jpg
http://pantikapei.ru/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/karaimy4.jpg
 
Yes third of Croatia is R1a but you forgeting 1/3 of today Croatia is SLAVONIA - and that land was part of Avar Khaganate and whole of Khaganate was intensivly settled by Slavs - Slovenia , Slovakia , Slavonia ( do names say something to you ?) , Balathon principality ,...
Why would Sarmathians be R1a - based on what?

occult nonsense. Those territories never belonged to any "Avar Khaganate".
 
Interesting. I always thought Scythians were leftovers of Iranian tribes who didn't migrated South and East.
Actually, the original Scythians came from SouthCentral Asia (BMAC) and migrated into the steppes where they heavily mixed with the natives of those areas. Scythians (together with Sogdians, Bactrians etc.) were East Iranic folks, while other Iranic tribes, like the Medes and Persians were West Iranic folks.
 
Actually, the original Scythians came from SouthCentral Asia (BMAC) and migrated into the steppes where they heavily mixed with the natives of those areas. Scythians (together with Sogdians, Bactrians etc.) were East Iranic folks, while other Iranic tribes, like the Medes and Persians were West Iranic folks.
More possibly one of the first proto-Iranian cultures was the Yaz culture(southwest Turkmenistan) and not the BMAC(BMAC is very old).
According to linguists North Pontic Scythians had west.Iranian substratum, and east.Iranian superstrate.
And there is the inscription with Luwian Hieroglyphs about Scythian King Partitava(in Saqqez Kurdestan) is in a language that is very close to modern Ossetian. http://landofkarda.blogspot.gr/2010/05/scythian-inscription.html
 
You have got some point. Indeed, the original Scythians came most probably from Yaz. But wasn't Yaz actually proto-East Iranic, and not proto-Iranic in general? It's still uncertain to me whether proto-Iranic peoples lived around BMAC or more to the west of the Iranian Plateau. I believe that the proto-Iranic race was born when J2a1* (or even J2a*and G2a) blended with R1a, but that could happen everywhere between the western parts of the Iranian Plateau (Zagros Mountains) or the eastern parts (SouthCentral Asia). And the thing is that SouthCentral Asia is HEAVILY influenced, culturally, genetically and linguistically (ergativity, Sumerian vocabulary etc.), by folks from West Asia.....
 
There are some tested Karaites(Kipchak-Cuman speaking people, they recognize the Old testament, but they don't recognize the Torah) mostly from Crimea
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/karaites.html
Eastern European Karaites have
6*J2,, 30%
5*E1b1b1,, 25%
4*G2a,, 20%
3*J1,, 15%
1*L2a,, 5%
1*R1b1a2,, 5%


In 1971 Academician V.P. Alekseev based on craniological parameters study of population from Khazar town Sarkel (Lower Don) came to the conclusion that the Karaites are the product of mixing of Khazars with local (Crimean) tribes (such as the Sarmatians, Sarmato-Alanians, Alans, Goths and perhaps the Greeks).

Some pictures of Karaites people http://www.agatov.com/content/view/3731/58/
http://www.religion.in.ua/uploads/posts/2013-08/1376483331_0.jpg
http://bike-crimea.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/karaimi.jpg
http://www.agatov.com/images/stories/Katalog/tataru/p1600875.jpg
http://www.agatov.com/images/stories/Katalog/tataru/p1600817.jpg
http://pantikapei.ru/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/karaimy4.jpg


Not exactly, the Karaites accept the old Testament (the old Testament includes the Torah, the Torah is simply the first 5 books of the bible) but they don't accept the Talmud.
 
"Maybe 'Amazones' were just wild/barbaric people without any respect for rules."

Amazone is a Greek transliteration for current Ukrainian, Russian word for AМУЖЁНКA, ОМУЖЁНКA, ОМУЖЁНA; Amoženka; Omoženka, Omožena Ženščina, Možata ženička. Where A transmuted into O, like in "Agni" into Agonj and into Ogonj, Ogenj. And from Agnistaha or Agnistha (अग्निष्ठ) into Ognjišče (fireplace). Greeks were renaming many words; like Trojan Vilusha into Ilios, Venetic Trojans into Enedae, Skoloti or Sokoli into Skolotoi (falcons), Truvid into Druids, Amozhena/Amozhenka into Amazones, etc

Amazons were women who were forced into a self-preservation, when their men(husbands) were butchered by enemies; we know the story from Troy(The correct transliteration was Vilusha or Wheelusha; rounded (wheel) city). Other Trojan (amazone) women were enslaved, their men were all killed.

barbary-slaves.jpg


They-women (ženke, žene) became "machist" (možate). When woman was married she also became "omožena" (part of man).

Amoženka - Sokolotka (Etruscan art)

trojan.jpg
 
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Hello,

I see interesting discussion here about Sarmatian origin and DNA. I will try to add my knowledge in this subject although I can not present any final conclusions of my own since its to early for that. However, You might find this interesting.

Ostoja is old Polish CoA and it evolved from Sarmatian Tamga (Helmut Nickel, Tamgas and Runes, Magic Numbers and Magic Symbols or Princke). and as You can see on the Avtar - there is also Sarmatian Dragon. Ostoja is old Battle Cry of group of knights, its older than 800 years but we dont know when it was in use first time and what it origin from. Ostoja mean mainstay and we believe that its about a place that people can seek protection or a place where people come together, where the Standard is situated. Oldest notes about members of the clan tell about Scibor that have been widely used by members of the Clan in Medieval times. Scibor (czcic bor) means Honor Battle and oldest notes we found are from year 1174. This information could be of importance...Honor Battle...since I think there is somethiing similar in Sarmatian culture.

In order to investigate Clan origin, we run the Ostoja Clan DNA project on FTDNA - see below:

* google on Ostoja Clan FTDNA - and see results (i cant post link here since I need to write 10 posts before i can do that)

In the beginning, we thought that families are blood related to each other since around year 1400 they lived in groups very close to each other. However, the DNA tell us something else. Many of the families are blood related to each other by changing their names after properties mainly between 1450 and 1550. So for example Blociszewski in Gaj started to use surname Gajewski or Biel in Kiedrzyn started to use Kiedrzynski. There are lot of such examples and in the end we have over 200 names that are linked to Ostoja. But from the begining, before they started to use names after their properties - they where a group of knights that in most where not blood related to each other (we think ab. 30-40 families). Interesting fact is that Blociszewski and Roguski have common ancestor that lived ab. 700 years ago and that Solecki have common ancestor with both of them ab. 1500 years ago. I doubt that this is coincidence. Interesting that as late as 1400 families had so strong contact with each other. Was the Dragon heritage so strong that is survived many hundreds of years?

As You can see there is a strong group belonging to R1a-west european origin. From this group we have prominent member in Jakusz de Blociszewo (later Blociszewski) that was voivode (duke ) of Lviv year 1374 although Blociszewo is placed in Greater Poland around Poznan and Bydgoszcz. This informatkion is usefull in order to determine from which Sarmatian tribe this group origin. Very close to Blociszewo, we have property of Ilowiec and we thought that Ilowiecki family could be blood related with Blociszewski but as You can see, Ilowiecki hold haplgroup R1b and most probably (we are doing sub-tests) of German origin. Both families lived very close to each other in year 1400 which indicate strong connection between them. The allover picture is the same. Regardless blood connection, families stick together and if they moved to other area in Poland, they moved to area where other Ostoja lived.

The CoA you see is pretty close to earliest stamps we discovered. Later...the cross become a sword and the CoA lost the dragon on helmet - but original version is very clear. A cross between increscent and decrescent. We still dont know if the cross was added because of Christianity, it might refer to dynastic power, Christianity or Crusaders. But the most important is Sarmatian dragon! This lead us to a tribe that was called Royal Sarmatians and suppose to origin from Royal Scythians that was the noblemen and aristocracy...or dynasty.

You clearly see the DNA of this Sarmatian Clan and in case of Marchocki and Chrzastowski, we will do subtests since its seems that both families are of Italo-Celtic origin. More test are on the way and we will see better picture in time.

You also see the DNA of Rylski and Danielewicz (R1a-Z280-Z92), those families are long distant cousins - should be ab 1800-2000 years ago. Both families origin from Sarmatian tribe Alans. Rylski settled down in Poland but Danielewicz in Lithuania so yes - Alans moved also north. They moved north to Russia and settled down around Novgorod and Pskov. How do we know that? Because prince Boriatynski (DNA, see Russian Nobility DNA project on FTDNA) family and Danielewicz (both of Ostoja) are of Alan origin and moved in medieval times from Novgorod and Pskov to Lithuania and Belarus - its well documented. Same with prince Palecki (also Ostoja, here no DNA) family. Danielewicz seems to origin from boyar family as common ancestor with Pushkin family lived ab. 800-1000 years ago. And we can trace Pushkin family origin down to ab. 1200 - to Novgorod.

As we can see, Alans did move up to Lithuania and North West Russia. But how did they then join Ostoja Clan? Royal Sarmatians and Alans might be cousins but they Alans where not the Dragon (Draco) like Royal Sarmatians. We believe that families used similar Tamgas to Ostoja and that they in this way joined the Clan. Only other option would be adoption year 1450 but there are no records that confirm such adoption. Most likely, its about Sarmatian Tamga - and most likely similar Ostoja. Or...did those Novgorod families also belong to Sarmatian Dragons? In Polish -very specific - heraldry, many CoA with 2 moons was called Ostoja with modificaton, we have many such modifications. So everything was in same basket (sic!). But we know of course that Ostoja with modification is NOT Ostoja. Important here is the procedure...so that is why we think its same with Tamga that looked similar to Ostoja. But what Tamga was that?

More research on Tamga and more DNA should in future tell much more.

I hope that what I wrote is interesting and can add something of value to the discussion.

Best regards,
O.
 
@ Ostoja. Welcome to Eupedia.

Do we have Sarmatian Y DNA to extrapolate paternal lines for Ostoja descendents?

Supposedly Alan Y hg was mainly G2, nothing more precise though.
[h=2]Genetics[edit][/h]In a study conducted in 2014 by VV Ilyinskyon on bone fragments from 12 Alanic burials on the Don River, 6 samples turned out belonging to yDNA Haplogroup G2 and 6 samples belonging to mtDNA I. This is a strong argument for direct Alan ancestry of Ossetians and against the hypothesis that Ossetians are alanized Caucasic Speakers, since the major Haplogroup among Ossetians is G2* either
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans


You mentioned some genetic relations, very distant cousins, going back 1,500. In this time scale every Pole should be related.
 
Hello Lebrok and thank You!

Well...Ostoja is clearly Sarmatian Tamga with Sarmatian Draco so naturally, we want to know the Y DNA of this Sarmatian Clan. The results so far are presented as mentioned on FTDNA, the Ostoja Clan DNA project. Based on the results, we try to match it with existing knowledge. What You see is composition of R1a (M458-L260) + R1b (italo-celtic+german) and I2a (M438) which lead us to conclusion that not only Sarmatians fight in the units with Draco standard. The Sarmatian part of Ostoja should then be R1a (458-L260) but we need more samples to do better conclusions.

Yes, You are right on Alan haplogroup being G2 but here, Western Alans will show haplogroup R1a. According to Ammianus M. that lived around year 350, Alans lived in Scythia and by the time they united with other people so they consisted of two groups that lived in different part of the Empire but both where called Alans. It means that those two groups have different YDNA.

Alans are refered to be of Sarmatian-Scythian origin and Scythians show haplogroup R1a-Z280. What we see is that Sarmatian tribes have slightly different DNA although majority is of R1a. In this way we can separate Alans from other Sarmatian tribe that show M458-L260. But again, we need lot more samples to be more exact and also, DNA Technics move forward and we are able to sub-group the results in better way.

If I look at my own DNA (Z280-Z92), it match almost perfectly the rout Western Alans did down to Africa. And no, going back 1500 years does not make every Pole related :) Its far from that - you need many thousands of years, not 1500. You see this in the R1a project on FTDNA and that Lukasz Lapinski, phd in Polish history administrate. You can see ab. 20 person with confirmed Z92 might be concidered. And Slavic origin might not be same as Sarmatian. And for 458-L260 its not even that, there are very few people in this sub-group.

Best regards,
Ostoja
 
Hi Ostoja, interesting story.
Btw, do you have proportions of y-dna haplos of clan? And how do they differ if at all from general haplo proportions of Poland?
I read on wiki it was 60% of r1a, is not it close to Polish average?
 
Hi Ostoja, interesting story.
Btw, do you have proportions of y-dna haplos of clan? And how do they differ if at all from general haplo proportions of Poland?
I read on wiki it was 60% of r1a, is not it close to Polish average?
There might be some truth in it, that some polish noblemen came from Sarmatians. Though, after 1,500 years looking for Sarmatian paternal line of Y dna in well mixed population, without Sarmatian source DNA, is an impossible task. As well it might be just a legend, carried away by romantic people, who imagined that they belong to something great from the past.

I never could understand why people cling to their grand x 50 father, who left only 2% of DNA in them, and very mutated after so many generations, who they never knew. As well could have been a psychopathic killer. But that is just me.
 
.And no, going back 1500 years does not make every Pole related :) Its far from that - you need many thousands of years, not 1500. You see this in the R1a project on FTDNA and that Lukasz Lapinski, phd in Polish history administrate.

Best regards,
Ostoja

1,500 years means roughly 60 generations. This number gives 576 quadrillion grand parents per person. One person has 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 grand grand..., etc. There were never as many people on this planet, so it means that people needed to share grandparents, especially in same geographical area. My hunch is confirmed by recent scientific discovery about sharing common ancestors.

BERLIN (AP) — Europeans appear to be more closely related than previously thought.
Scientists who compared DNA samples from people in different parts of the continent found that most had common ancestors living just 1,000 years ago.
The results confirm decade-old mathematical models, but will nevertheless come as a surprise to Europeans accustomed to thinking of ancient nations composed of distinct ethnic groups like "Germans," ''Irish" or "Serbs."
"What's remarkable about this is how closely everyone is related to each other," said Graham Coop of the University of California, Davis, who co-wrote the study published Tuesday in the journal PLoS Biology.
Coop and his fellow author Peter Ralph of the University of Southern California used a database containing more than 2,250 genetic samples to look for shared DNA segments that would point to distant shared relatives.
While the number of common genetic ancestors is greater the closer people are to each other, even individuals living 2,000 miles (3,220 kilometers) apart had identical sections of DNA that can be traced back roughly to the Middle Ages.
The findings indicate that there was a steady flow of genetic material between countries as far apart as Turkey and Britain, or Poland and Portugal, even after the great population movements of the first millennium A.D. such as the Saxon and Viking invasions of Britain, and the westward drive of the Huns and Slavic peoples.
The study did find subtle regional variations. For reasons still unclear, Italians and Spaniards appear to be less closely related than most Europeans to people elsewhere on the continent.
"The analysis is pretty convincing. It comes partly from the enormous number of ancestors each one of us have," said Mark A. Jobling, a professor of genetics at the University of Leicester, England, who wasn't involved in the study.
Since the number of ancestors each person has roughly doubles with each generation, "we don't have to go too far back to find someone who features in all of our family trees," he said.
Jobling cited a scientific paper published in 2004 that went so far as to predict that every person on the planet shares ancestors who lived just 4,000 years ago.
Experts say the study's findings need to be compared with what we know about population movements in Europe and elsewhere from other fields, including archeology and linguistics.
"Although, as the authors note, the approach is inherently 'noisy' (i.e. error-prone), it still does give results for European populations that are in reasonable agreement with historical expectations," said Mark Stoneking, a professor evolutionary anthropology at the University of Leipzig, Germany, who also wasn't involved in the study. "It would be interesting to see this applied in situations where we don't have such good historical information."
Coop and Ralph said the findings might change the way Europeans think about their neighbors on a continent that has had its fair share of struggle and strife.
"The basic idea that we're all related much more recently than one might think has been around for a while, but it is not widely appreciated, and still quite surprising to many people, even scientists working in population genetics, including ourselves," they said in an email to The Associated Press. "The fact that we share all our ancestors from a time period where we recognize various ethnic identities also points at how we are like a family — we have our differences, but are all closely related."
Just don't expect news of closer family ties to prompt a surge of brotherly love in Europe or elsewhere.
"There have been many studies that we've been involved in showing that groups which are fighting each other furiously all the time are actually extremely closely genetically related. But that's never had any impact on whether they continue to fight each other," Jobling said.
"So for example Jewish and non-Jewish populations in the Middle East are extremely similar genetically, but to tell them they are genetic close relatives isn't going to change their
http://news.yahoo.com/europeans-had-common-ancestors-1-000-years-ago-210129852.html
 
Actually, the original Scythians came from SouthCentral Asia (BMAC) and migrated into the steppes where they heavily mixed with the natives of those areas. Scythians (together with Sogdians, Bactrians etc.) were East Iranic folks, while other Iranic tribes, like the Medes and Persians were West Iranic folks.

The original Scythians came probably from Northeast of the Caspian. They were pushed out by the Massagatae and moved into Pontic Steppes by driving out the local Cimmerians into Western Asia. Among those Scythians who settled on the Pontic steppes was a tribal group who became known as the "Royal Scythians". It is said by Heredotus that the Western Scythians crossed into the Pontic Steppes through Media and the Caucasus. This would explain why West Scythian has a strong West Iranic substratum. And it would also explain the obsession of Scythians with Media and their several campaigns to conquer it.

Those Royal Scythians with their King Bartatua came back and attacked Media and settled there building up their county of Sagapeni in Eastern Kurdistan/Northwest Iran. His Son Madya became the new ruler of Media.
 
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As I said in the past. It is very unlikely that the Iranoaryan groups belonged exclusively to one Haplogroup. Especially when this group was so widespred and modern descends of them have significant frequencies in allot of Haplogroups. The reason why some Iranoaryan groups are more dominated by one Haplogroup while other more diverse is most probably because of founder effect. Imagine IndoIranian groups spreading from their homeland in every direction. Through Bottleneck effect. Some groups might end up beeing dominant in only one or two Haplogroups while some other have the full package of yDNA diversity.

As example the region once settled by the Dahae has very high levels of Haplogroup R1b*, the same is the case for some regions of Western Iranian Groups. Than we have the Alans and their descends the Ossetians and Jasz from Hungary who are dominant in Haplogroup G2* but also have some R1b* and I*. The people of the former regions of Bactria, Sogdia, Massagatae and Saka(east Scythians) are dominant by Haplogroup R1a* (up to 50%) but have also significant frequency of other Haplogroups as J2a, R2*, Q1b, G*, L*, C* and some H-M69*. Regions of what was once Western Scythia/Cimmeria are dominant by Haplogroup such as R1a*, R1b*, I2a*, G2a and J*, N* and C*.
And when it comes to West Iranian Groups you have a whole varity of significant Haplogroups. In Northwest Iranians such as various subclades of R1a*, R1b*/R2a*, J2a/J1b, G*, I* T*, L2*, Q1b. And among Southwest Iranians the same just with less R1b and add some H-M69*.

If Haplogroups are as old as 30000 years, I can't think of any ethno-linguistic group beeing exclusively dominant in one Haplogroup. So no suprise to find out that some Sarmatian tribes such as the Alans and Jazyges were more dominant by Haplogroup G2a*, R1b*, while other like the Roxalani, Aorsi, Siraces probably by Haplogroup R1a* and J2a*.
 
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Alans are refered to be of Sarmatian-Scythian origin and Scythians show haplogroup R1a-Z280.

As far as I know most tested Scythian remains were z93. Of course it is likely that they had some Z280 among their lines too.
 
I think if Ostoja clan has ~ same haplo % as modern Poland then there are two options:
a) Sarmats had same haplo % as modern Poland
b) Ostoja was a romantic banner for folk that came of random Polish nobles.

There are similar Legends. Lithuanian and Russian Princes believed they came from brother of Caesar Augustus who arrived to Prussia :)
 
Lebrok,

Yeah, its like in six degree of separation :) But here I think study You presented have nothing to do with the Clans and I believe that it is based on too little and to old samples, I personally doubt those conclusions, for me its more like indication. If You look at the DNA of several Clans You will very seldom see any relation closer than 800 years between any of Clan members and anyone else in the database on FTDNA or ysearch.org. So clearly, the publication You presented does not apply on Clans - 1500 years is almost nothing. Why dont You check several projects on FTDNA to see that more clearly?

It have been stated that Sarmatian heritage of Polish nobility is romantic nonsense but past 2 years picture have changed and researchers now claim that it is partly true. What we do is correcting huge amount of errors in history books and DNA projects help us to make those corrections. Nobility by itself is completely of no interest. We just wish to come closer to the truth. Today - Im sorry to say that - most historians with phd and most professors in Poland are presenting crap. So basically, you need to read all this crap for ab. 20 years and just to come to the conclusion that You need to start over and start with translating sources. You can easily translate french vulgar Latin in different way. Researching Clans is interesting because those are more "closed" societies. We researched Awdaniec (Abdank) clan since scholars thought that this Clan might origin from Scandinavia. The DNA project of this Clan failed to confirm that. We also are waiting for the DNA of Piast dynasty - this is very interesting issue and the results might make revolution in the way to see what really happened 1000 years ago on Polish ground. Another interesting DNA project is of Bajor claiming that most of princely families from Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine that clam Rurikid origin is of haplogroup N. Almost all researchers refer to the study of Bajor but again, this project failed to point on haplogroup N and we can only confirm 50% haplogroup N and 50% R1a so clearly we cant come to any conclusion jet.
 
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Furtheremore, counting Clan population past 1000 years we can ruffly count on 40 families in Ostoja that developed slightly over 150 ancient lines and of them 60 are extinct so in Ostoja we are talking about max. 1000 members - that is only 25 times more Clan members in 1000 year or ab. 40 generations. Same should apply on other Clans.

As mensioned earlier, researching Clans give some value since they are more "closed societies" and in this way I think it is possible to verify DNA of Sarmatians. The mix You talk about Lebrok refer to mtDNA, not Y-DNA. Here we talk about ruffly 1 mutation in 100 years in specific markers.

Arvistro - the DNA of different Clans differ. Some Clans show closer connection and some differ a lot. Difference between Ostoja and Adwaniec is significant. We believe that R1a in Adwaniec is mistake. I give you example. In the property of Rogusze in north Masovia there where 2 families sharing a village. Both families apply suraname Roguski around year 1500. One family was from the clan Ostoja and one of clan Adwaniec. In sources we see only Adwanbiec in Roguski family but DNA results showed not just R1a but also match Blociszewski family that belong to Ostoja. Common ancestor lived 700 years ago and it is specific markers that match and that give us confidence in the results. 700 years is pretty close match when talking about Clans. Without the DNA tests, it would be impossible to separate those families. We therefore think that the DNA of Clans will differ more the more samples we have.

And no, Ostoja is not any romantic banner of different noble, it would be waste of time to research fairy tells :) Every element in Ostoja CoA is Sarmatian. Only thing we still cant establish is if the Cross is of Christian origin or of Sarmatian.
 
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