Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

[Ostoja]

Alan,

You are right on Z93 but we still have to little samples to determine. Also, we talk about 2 different tribes that where called Alans and there could be more than 2 tribes. I still cant proof my Alan origin but Im pretty sure that we will soon be able to establish that since every year the DNA science move on quickly forward. For the moment I can just tell that Alan route they make to Africa match perfectly my own DNA. Problem we face is that any relation that is older than 1500 years is not reliable. More than 15 (of 67) markers difference tell relation but it can be 1600 years or 3000 years. We can therefore consider max 15 markers difference in Y-67 test to be able to tell more exact relation between families.

 

[Ostoja]

When looking at the DNA results of Ostoja clan members, some of them can not be considered in the research of Sarmatian origin. So far we have following:

4 persons showing M458-L260 (R1a)
3 persons showing I2a2
2 persons showing R-M269 (R1b)
1 person showing R-U106 (R1b)

This is composition of the Clan right now if we consider oldest lines and not adopted or where we believe DNA is not broken. The east part of the Clan is not considered right now. We have far to little DNA samples to make conclusions but we have indication that M458-L260 might be of Sarmatian tribe origin since families in this group are one of the leading in the Clan and well documented. The research lead us to Royal Sarmatians. Some scholars tell that Royal Sarmatians origin from Royal Scythians but other tell that they are minor Sarmatian tribe. No clue what is more correct. Only thing we know for sure is that Ostoja evolved from Sarmatian Tamga and that they used Draco standard. The rest we have to research and I think that DNA project will in time give us the key we search.

Some information I present might be of interest for You since its based on very solid sources. Also, Your input and knowledge is interesting for me. Soon I will be able to add links so it will be easier for me to present interesting sources.

 

[arvistro]

When we calculate % for all project samples we see almost perfect mini-modern Poland but with boosted R1b.
So my first idea was that banner to Poland was taken by r1b former Roman mercenaries who served their time in that particular unit. And further local Poles joined the game.
But if some are truer Ostojas than others, I hope others are fake because of smth else and not of "wrong" haplos to avoid circle logic.

M458 as Sarmats, now that is interesting idea. It is different enough and at common level with Z280 and their Germanic brother (forgot name).

Mainstream opinion currently links m458 and i2 to Slavic expansions. Sarmats were supposed to be Iranic folk. Slavs have some Iranic influences - "Bog", but is it enough to believe m458 was Sarmatian marker before 500? Scyths were z93, could Sarmats be m458? I havent read much on that subj, so sorry if speak non-sense. Hope someone corrects me.

Btw, from antique authors is it known which archeo cultures were in those places East of Vistula where they find Sarmats?

 

[Robert6]

As far as I know most tested Scythian remains were z93. Of course it is likely that they had some Z280 among their lines too.

There is no paleo-Dna from Scythians yet

 

[Alan]

There is no paleo-Dna from Scythians yet

There is Scythian DNA from pazyryk culture

 

[Alan]

Alan,

You are right on Z93 but we still have to little samples to determine. Also, we talk about 2 different tribes that where called Alans and there could be more than 2 tribes. I still cant proof my Alan origin but Im pretty sure that we will soon be able to establish that since every year the DNA science move on quickly forward. For the moment I can just tell that Alan route they make to Africa match perfectly my own DNA. Problem we face is that any relation that is older than 1500 years is not reliable. More than 15 (of 67) markers difference tell relation but it can be 1600 years or 3000 years. We can therefore consider max 15 markers difference in Y-67 test to be able to tell more exact relation between families.

You probably mean different Sarmatian tribes.

As I said Alans were probably dominant by G2a* mostly but with other less significant lineages as I*, R1b and R1a. But there are also other Sarmatian groups like Aorsi and Roxalani. Maybe Poles have some ancestry from them.

 

[Robert6]

There is Scythian DNA from pazyryk culture

Yes only mtdna is tested it is N1a(mtdna N1a is so called Neolithic European signature)
Which mtdna N1a is abcent in Bronze age Altay

 

[Alan]

Yes only mtdna is tested it is N1a(mtdna N1a is so called Neolithic European signature)
Which mtdna N1a is abcent in Bronze age Altay

As far as I know also yDNA is tested from Bronze Age Altais in West Mongolia, which was inhabited by both Scythian and Mongol people. As seen from DNA some were Mongolian Q1a* and some were Scythian R1a*.

Also Andronovo, which is seen as Scythian culture was dominant in Haplogroup R1a*
http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2014/06/ancient-dna-from-bronze-age-altai.html

 

[LeBrok]

You probably mean different Sarmatian tribes.

As I said Alans were probably dominant by G2a* mostly but with other less significant lineages as I*, R1b and R1a. But there are also other Sarmatian groups like Aorsi and Roxalani. Maybe Poles have some ancestry from them.

I think it is true in general sense, same as some German, Lithuanian, Prussian, Russian, Ukrainian, Tatar ancestry. However I'm very sceptical about connecting "clans" to certain ethnicities from 1,500 years ago, in lack of slightest autosomal or uniparental DNA of said ethnicity. Nothing more than a legend and Sarmatians' symbols some polish nobles implemented on their emblems around year 1,200. That's 800 years after last records of Sarmatians. That's a very long time for things to get very muddy. Not mentioning another 800 years since.

 

[Robert6]

As far as I know also yDNA is tested from Bronze Age Altais in West Mongolia, which was inhabited by both Scythian and Mongol people. As seen from DNA some were Mongolian Q1a* and some were Scythian R1a*.

Also Andronovo culture connected to Scythians was dominant in Haplogroup R1a*
http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2014/06/ancient-dna-from-bronze-age-altai.html

The Scythian culture from 8 century BC have Iron Akinakes(Sword) Bronze age Altayans do not have it.
When the Scythians were in Iron Age, in Altay were Bronze age.
The only culture in the east close to the Scythians is Pazyryk culture, which culture is "Scythian type" or "from Scythian cycle" culture and not exactly Scythian.
The Andronovo is not a one culture, it is a Horizon of many cultures.
The western Andronovo have 100% Western mtdna,
and eastern Andronovo have 40-50% of eastern mtdna.

 

[Alan]

The Scythian culture from 8 century BC have Iron Akinakes(Sword) Bronze age Altayans do not have it.
When the Scythians were in Iron Age, in Altay were Bronze age.
The only culture in the east close to the Scythians is Pazyryk culture, which culture is "Scythian type" or "from Scythian cycle" culture and not exactly Scythian.
The Andronovo is not a one culture, it is a Horizon of many cultures.
The western Andronovo have 100% Western mtdna,
and eastern Andronovo have 40-50% of eastern mtdna.

Pzayrk is clearly identified as Scythian. proven by typical West Eurasian y as well mtDNA which Mongols lack (HV1, HV2 and N1a) though more and more admixed with some of the native mongols. Bronze Age Altai samples are from West Mongolia, which just a few centuries later became part of the pazyrk culture.

Andronovo is definitely one culture or to be more exact, a horizont of few related cultures.

I have heard that there was one Haplogroup C* additional to R1a in Andronovo. It was thought to be East Eurasian but today we know C* is much more than just East or West Eurasian. At the beginning Andronovo was almost completely West Eurasian but with time it became more mixed in the East with East Eurasian mtDNA. The only thing this proofs is that Andronovo with time absorbed some neighboring DNA.

Out of 10 human male remains assigned to the Andronovo horizon from the Krasnoyarsk region, 9 possessed the R1a Y-chromosome haplogroup and one the haplogroup C-M130 (xC3). mtDNA haplogroups of nine individuals assigned to the same Andronovo horizon and region were as follows: U4 (2 individuals), U2e, U5a1, Z, T1, T4, H, and K2b.
90% of the Bronze Age period mtDNA haplogroups were of west Eurasian origin and the study determined that at least 60% of the individuals overall (out of the 26 Bronze and Iron Age human remains' samples of the study that could be tested) had light hair and blue or green eyes.^[18]
A 2004 study also established that, during the Bronze/Iron Age period, the majority of the population of Kazakhstan (part of the Andronovo culture during Bronze Age), was of west Eurasian origin (with mtDNA haplogroups such as U, H, HV, T, I and W), and that prior to the thirteenth to seventh century BC, all Kazakh samples belonged to European lineages.^[19]

If we agree that C-M130 is just Eurasian . Than we come to only one East Eurasian mtDNA. That is on the usual range of other Indo_Iranian groups.

 

[Ostoja]

When we calculate % for all project samples we see almost perfect mini-modern Poland but with boosted R1b.
So my first idea was that banner to Poland was taken by r1b former Roman mercenaries who served their time in that particular unit. And further local Poles joined the game.
But if some are truer Ostojas than others, I hope others are fake because of smth else and not of "wrong" haplos to avoid circle logic.

Everything is possible, also roman mercenaries with haplo R1a as we know that Sarmatian joined roman legions. See Roxolani, Yazygz and the cataphracts.

There is no fake in the Ostoja DNA projet but we have doubts about some of memebrs like the one with N1c - its possible that the DNA line is broken here. In other cases, we know that some of people tested origin from families that where co opted to the Clan in medieval times so I dont include them in this research. I therefore listed 10 results that we are very sure about and where the line is not broken. We will soon have more samples to examine. I think that m458 is indication and if we will see more of it in future tests, we could maybe establish something in the future.

 

[Robert6]

Alan
The Pazyryk people are untested for Y-dna
Pazyryk culture is a mix of Locals and plus Iranian influence(from N.Iran-Baktria) possibly from Massagetae or other Iranian tribe.


The central Siberia (Krasnoyarskiy Kray) is the most eastern part of Andronovo horizont, and only the most eastern part of Andronovo horizont is tested. In Andronovo horizont they are all Anthropologically different in the west they were mostly Dolichocephalic in the east they were mostly Mesocephalic and Brachycephalic.

 

[Ostoja]

I think it is true in general sense, same as some German, Lithuanian, Prussian, Russian, Ukrainian, Tatar ancestry. However I'm very sceptical about connecting "clans" to certain ethnicities from 1,500 years ago, in lack of slightest autosomal or uniparental DNA of said ethnicity. Nothing more than a legend and Sarmatians' symbols some polish nobles implemented on their emblems around year 1,200. That's 800 years after last records of Sarmatians. That's a very long time for things to get very muddy. Not mentioning another 800 years since.

It is necessary to be sceptical but we are on the way to determine DNA of some of Sarmatian tribes. Few years ago, Srmatian symbols liked to Polish Clans where considered as a legend or romantic stories but not now. It is now common knowledge that some Clans (part of it) origin from Saramtian tribes. I dont think that we have any good publication about this jet but I know that people that research this subject are sure about it. What I write is not my opinion but opinion of historians that do the research. Like opinion of Lukasz Lapinski, phd in Polish history and leading authorities in reading the DNA test with haplogroup R1a. Claiming that its nothing more than legend is Your subjective input and against all common knowledge in subject. You write that Polish nobles implemented on their emblems around year 1,200 - we have CoA that is identical with Ostoja from year 980 of prince Iziaslaw. Like in oldest versions of Ostoja...the cross link the moons and also the moons are linked in middle part of the CoA. We can see almost exact version of this CoA in the seal of duke Jan z Jani of Ostoja from around 1450. Coincidence? We dont know. We can not tell that people did not use symbols between year 400 and 1200. We know about such symbols that we consider being proto-CoA from year 800 and earlier. We also know that Ostoja is Samatian Tamga and that the dragon in Ostoja is Sarmatian Draco. Our research lead us to Royal Sarmatian but here we still are not completely sure since we dont have proof that is enough to make statement beyond any doubt.

 

[LeBrok]

It is necessary to be sceptical but we are on the way to determine DNA of some of Sarmatian tribes. Few years ago, Srmatian symbols liked to Polish Clans where considered as a legend or romantic stories but not now. It is now common knowledge that some Clans (part of it) origin from Saramtian tribes.

With all due respect, your definition of Common Knowledge must be way different than the common definition suggests.

I dont think that we have any good publication about this jet but I know that people that research this subject are sure about it.

How can it be a common knowledge without even one good publication about this?

What I write is not my opinion but opinion of historians that do the research. Like opinion of Lukasz Lapinski, phd in Polish history and leading authorities in reading the DNA test with haplogroup R1a. Claiming that its nothing more than legend is Your subjective input and against all common knowledge in subject.

Just present Sarmatian DNA and you have the case. Right now what you have are common polish uniparental DNA lines in your clan.

You write that Polish nobles implemented on their emblems around year 1,200 - we have CoA that is identical with Ostoja from year 980 of prince Iziaslaw. Like in oldest versions of Ostoja...the cross link the moons and also the moons are linked in middle part of the CoA. We can see almost exact version of this CoA in the seal of duke Jan z Jani of Ostoja from around 1450. Coincidence? We dont know. We can not tell that people did not use symbols between year 400 and 1200. We know about such symbols that we consider being proto-CoA from year 800 and earlier. We also know that Ostoja is Samatian Tamga and that the dragon in Ostoja is Sarmatian Draco. Our research lead us to Royal Sarmatian but here we still are not completely sure since we dont have proof that is enough to make statement beyond any doubt.

All of this doesn't mean much. Germany and Russia have Roman eagle as their symbols, but are they genetically Romans? We know they are not. Same could have happen with adaptation of Sarmatian dragon. Dragon was a symbol of powerful Sarmatians, so why not adopt it?

Having said that, there is still possibility that some polish clans came from Sarmatian genetic lines. However after so many generation you won't find much of genetic connection to the founders. With more members you might have found something statistically significant, but not with 10 members.

 

[Ostoja]

I write what i hear from people that are researching Sarmatian origin. I think its to early for publication but I know that one is on the way.

Yes, I will soon try to present some more interesting information and if its possible also add DNA to it. Sarmatian dragon was adopted by Bosporan Kingdom and by Roman legions so of course, it could be adopted. However, as earlier mentioned - Ostoja evolved from Sarmatian Tamga. In this case, Sarmatians used Sarmatian dragon - its simple.

I dont understand why I can not find genetic connection with Sarmatian tribes? If You talk about mtDNA yes, its to much mixed but when talking about Y-DNA You can in simple way determine who You are blood related to up to 1500 years back in time in more exact way. I know what families I have common ancestor with 1400-1500 years ago. More back in time we are not sure about correct century, thats all. But it does not mean that we can not go 2000 back in time and predict. If You read specific markers in test that consist of at least 67 markers, it is sometimes possible to make correct prediction and DNA science is moving very quickly forward. With Big-Y test we will soon be able to do new subgroups.

Yes, its correct that 10 tests are far to little, thats why I write about indications but its of course to little to draw any conclusions. We will have more interesting DNA results incoming soon to add to what we have. But Ostoja is not the only DNA project, there are several other and much bigger so this will also help Ostoja DNA project. The DNA test show us also that in some cases, two families with common ancestor that for example lived 1200 years back in time entered two different Clans. In that way, we have a lot more than 10 samples to investigate.

If we have DNA samples of for ex. Roxolani and Yazyges, we will soon be able perfectly match it with people that have same DNA subgroup. We just need to get those sub-groups ready, its just question of time and we will know for sure.

 

[Alan]

All of this doesn't mean much. Germany and Russia have Roman eagle as their symbols, but are they genetically Romans?
.

Hmm I would not be sure about that. the Eagle is one of the most symbolic animals among Iranic speaking tribes and I have heard rumors that the Eagle was brought to Germanic people by contact with Sarmatians.

 

[Ostoja]

You probably mean different Sarmatian tribes.

As I said Alans were probably dominant by G2a* mostly but with other less significant lineages as I*, R1b and R1a. But there are also other Sarmatian groups like Aorsi and Roxalani. Maybe Poles have some ancestry from them.

Seems that G2 is dominant but as You said, there are also less significant lineages. We have indications that Iazyges could have haplo I2a2a (M223) dinaric. Dont know the Roxolani or Aorsi DNA. It seems that the DNA of different Sarmatian tribes differ. We should in time know more when more Big-Y tests are done. There are already new subclades. Interesting to see if some Sarmatian tribes really origin from Scythians, then we should have dominating haplo R1a.

 

[Goga]

Before they were assimilated completely by the Europeans, some East Iranic tribes originally from the SouthCentral Asia were already heavily mixed with the native East Europeans. And like I said, later on they were completely blended in with the natives of Europe. Like they (some East Iranic tribes) did with Turco-Mogoloid folks in Central Asia.

 

[Ostoja]

Before they were assimilated completely by the Europeans, some East Iranic tribes originally from the SouthCentral Asia were already heavily mixed with the native East Europeans. And like I said, later on they were completely blended in with the natives of Europe. Like they (some East Iranic tribes) did with Turco-Mogoloid folks in Central Asia.

True, that is why its interesting to investigate Clans, some of them could preserve the original DNA as they where ruling Class and could be less mixed with others. Also, its more likely that we find unbroken DNA line.

Not sure about Iranian heritage though, I cant see any evidence of that excet sources that claim that Scythians and Sarmatian speak Iranian language. Haplogroup R1a is one of the dominating in Iran. This article is very well sourced and is FA art so we could presume that there is no rubbish there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples

In point 6 - genetics, there are interesting information. Read about R1a-M198. Also, I see nothing about haplo I2a2 and R-I223 suppose to be of the Iazyges. So Alans and Iazyges dont mach - the DNA of Sythians does since its Z93. But it is also stated that this tribe did not origin from Iran.

It could also be of interest to examine Aorsi tribe which was the biggest Sarmatian tribe. Could this tribe show Z93 as Scythians? Not sure about that. According to several historians, Antes people origin from Aorsi and claim that Aorsi was spelled Antsai, later Antae and finally Halans, Polans. The tribes of Aorsi, Royal Samratians and Sirace - all of them used Tamga signs and some of those tamgas is believed to have later transformed to Polish CoA. Brajaczewski could prove that Antes in greek is Polans in slavic language. There is still a world "polanka" that refer to woman hero although in modern Polish its now "bohater" that evolved from turkish "bagadyr".

The Ostoja CoA clearly evolved from Sarmatian Tamga and the dragon is also Sarmatian dragon. So in that way, further reaserch on the DNA of Ostoja Clan might give us some more interesting indications in the future regarding the DNA of Sarmatian tribe that is called Royal Sarmatians. Royal Sarmatians is relatively little Sarmatian tribe but of many reasons very interesting to investigate.