Part 2: 8,000 years of Natural Selection in Europe.

[Goga]

@Maciamo,

The circa 2500 BC R1a-Z94 guy from Poltavka culture was a genetic outlier. He was genetically just like Sintashta, Corded Ware, etc. He was either an immigrant or from an early wave R1a-Z93 people from the West into the Steppe. The Poltavka culture itself probably had 0 or little R1a-Z93 or anykind of R1a, and was almost exclusively R1b-Z2103.

What??? There is no R1a-Z93 in the ' West '. If Z93 was from the west, some native folks there would be from Z93. But most folks in Eastern Europe are evolved from Z282.

It's crazy to believe that R1a-Z93 is from the Eastern Europe. This is 100% not true.

 

[Goga]

yes, R2 TMRCA estimated is 10.200 years, probably somewhere in northern Pakistan, 1000 years before arrival of agriculture in Mehrgarh

but IMO PIE was somewhere on the steppe, 5th mill BC R1b1a1a-M478* (TMRCA 7300 years), R1b1a2-M269 (TMRCA 6400 years) and R1a1a-M417 (TMRCA 5500 years)*

* PS see Ray Banks Tree https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ev4PSiPdCqiY5ZiCGZD96cks-cXchF2saTfKjNDG21o/edit

•R1b1a1 P297/PF6398 (18656508 G->C)
• • • •R1b1a1a M73 (21888874..21888874 ins->del 2 base pairs)
• • • • •R1b1a1a1 M478 (23444054 T->C)
• • • •R1b1a1b M269 (22739367 T->C)

PIE that entered Europe was from the Steppes. First PIE came from Maykop into Yamnaya and from Yamnaya into Europe.

But Indo-European languages in West Asia were native to West Asia. PIE in West Asia came from the Leyla Tepe (Iranian Plateau).

 

[Alan]

What you say is possible. However how do you know Teal people gave J to Mesolithic Karelia if Teal ancestry is so diluted it's impossible to detract? You're assuming it is teal with no evidence. My opinion is that R1b1 and J are very old so Neolithic Anatolians and Mesolithic Russians belonged to both lineages but neither appear to be partly descended from each other. So, J in Karelia isn't prove they had Near Eastern ancestry and isn't evidence R1b1 has a Near Eastern origin.

Fire I think you doN't see kinda the irony. The theory you propose now. Wasn't it my theory since the beginning of all this discussion? Didn't I said from the beginning that yDNA J, since it is the brother clade of I and close relative of K, would be rather H&G related than. Wasn't this my argument since whole lot of month when people were still keeping to call simply an EEF lineage?

I said the same about R1 lineages if you remember what I wrote on Eurogenes a whole lot of times, that R1 lineages are far too old and probably were widespred all around Eurasia by Neolithic times already. But the point is when I said this no one agreed with me.

Suddenly when a J sample turns out in Keralian H&G people are fine with it, simply out of the fact that they don't want to accept the possibility of farmer DNA reaching EHG so early and destroying their "pure blooded EHG Indo Europeans" theory.

So I repeat again I think if J was already among EHG groups, than this could indicate that the EHG groups ultimately arrived from Central Asia to begin with. And their they might had already came into contact with teal like groups. Other possibility is, that J Haplogroup is so old, just like R1 lineages that it was already widespred among farmers and H&G groups with completely different autosomal DNA.

 

[Goga]

So Armenian-like R1b would have moved to the Pontic Steppe around 5200 BCE ? I needed confirmation on that point, but it is actually the timing I had suggested in my history of R1b. Here is what I wrote in 2009:


My migration map showed R1b crossing the Caucasus to the Pontic Steppe some time between 6000 and 5000 BCE, and my first migration map of R1b (the Flash version, which I can't paste on the forum) indicated 7000 ybp for that trans-Caucasian migration. So it is reassuring that was intuition was right on the timing as well as the geography.

BINGO & JACKPOT !!! But it is not 'Armenian-like' R1b but Leyla-Tepe (Gedrosia/Iranid)-like

 

[Fire Haired14]

Fire I think you doN't see kinda the irony. The theory you propose now. Wasn't it my theory since the beginning of all this discussion? Didn't I said from the beginning that yDNA J, since it is the brother clade of I and close relative of K, would be rather H&G related than. Wasn't this my argument since whole lot of month when people were still keeping to call simply an EEF lineage?

I said the same about R1 lineages if you remember what I wrote on Eurogenes a whole lot of times, that R1 lineages are far too old and probably were widespred all around Eurasia by Neolithic times already. But the point is when I said this no one agreed with me.

Suddenly when a J sample turns out in Keralian H&G people are fine with it, simply out of the fact that they don't want to accept the possibility of farmer DNA reaching EHG so early and destroying their "pure blooded EHG Indo Europeans" theory.

So I repeat again I think if J was already among EHG groups, than this could indicate that the EHG groups ultimately arrived from Central Asia to begin with. And their they might had already came into contact with teal like groups. Other possibility is, that J Haplogroup is so old, just like R1 lineages that it was already widespred among farmers and H&G groups with completely different autosomal DNA.

Few posters suggested R1 is an exclusively EHG lineage. I didn't. I've though what you did all this time. And we need the EHG genome with J to find out if it is negative for J2 and J1. J obviously was originally a WHG/UHG lineage with no Basal Eurasian, so a HG immigration from West Asia to Karelia is possible. The same could be true for R1b1 and R1a1.

 

[Fire Haired14]

What??? There is no R1a-Z93 in the ' West '. If Z93 was from the west, some native folks there would be from Z93. But most folks in Eastern Europe are evolved from Z282.

It's crazy to believe that R1a-Z93 is from the Eastern Europe. This is 100% not true.

Actually non-Balto Slavic East Europeans have more Z93 than Z282. The Z93 folk left East Europe and were overrun by N1c. The 2500 BC R1a-Z93 guy had significant "EEF" ancestry which did not exist in the Steppe, it only existed further West in Europe.

Autosomally he resembled Corded Ware the people who gave Z282 to Europe. It should be no surprise Z93 and Z282 come from the same people. The debate it over now because we have prove in ancient DNA, R1a-Z93 originated somewhere around modern day Ukraine.

R1a-Z93 and R1a-Z282 obviously came from people who had kings who had a million wives while many other men had few or no wives as a result. Overtime everyone became R1a-Z93 in one tribe and R1a-Z282 in another tribe. The original R1a-Z93 and R1a-Z282 men were probably born not much more than 1,000 years before you had tribes who were 100% R1a-Z93 or R1a-Z282.

This method of rich men having tons of wives would have continued as they became admixed with other people. Early R1a-Z93 Indo Iranian from Central Asia mixed heavily with North Asians, Europeans, and SC Asians. In SC Asia they kept the same system of rich men from certain families having tons of wives, which kept R1a-Z93 popular. There's is significant autosomal impact in SC Asia but in other areas there isn't significant autosomal impact and R1a-Z93 is still popular.

You see this all over the world. All Native Americans belong to the same paternal lineage. A similar Bronze age thing happened in lots of places, I mean look at J1 in Arabia, E1b-M81 in NW Africa, R1b-L151 in West Europe.

 

[Goga]

Actually non-Balto Slavic East Europeans have more Z93 than Z282. The Z93 folk left East Europe and were overrun by N1c. The 2500 BC R1a-Z93 guy had significant "EEF" ancestry which did not exist in the Steppe, it only existed further West in Europe.

Autosomally he resembled Corded Ware the people who gave Z282 to Europe. It should be no surprise Z93 and Z282 come from the same people. The debate it over now because we have prove in ancient DNA, R1a-Z93 originated somewhere around modern day Ukraine.

R1a-Z93 and R1a-Z282 obviously came from people who had kings who had a million wives while many other men had few or no wives as a result. Overtime everyone became R1a-Z93 in one tribe and R1a-Z282 in another tribe. The original R1a-Z93 and R1a-Z282 men were probably born not much more than 1,000 years before you had tribes who were 100% R1a-Z93 or R1a-Z282.

This method of rich men having tons of wives would have continued as they became admixed with other people. Early R1a-Z93 Indo Iranian from Central Asia mixed heavily with North Asians, Europeans, and SC Asians. In SC Asia they kept the same system of rich men from certain families having tons of wives, which kept R1a-Z93 popular. There's is significant autosomal impact in SC Asia but in other areas there isn't significant autosomal impact and R1a-Z93 is still popular.

You see this all over the world. All Native Americans belong to the same paternal lineage. A similar Bronze age thing happened in lots of places, I mean look at J1 in Arabia, E1b-M81 in NW Africa, R1b-L151 in West Europe.

NO, you're wrong BIG time. There's some Z93 in Europe, but not much maybe a few %, but thats from Iranic folks from the East, like Sarmatians.

When you find ancient Z93 in West Asia it will be autosomally West Asian. Itsall bout the region where you find those skeletons.

R1a-Z93 NEVER came from Ukraine, what the **** are you talking about?? There is not much of Z93 in Ukraine, only some from the Iranic folks.

Z93 was born somewhere on the Iranian Plateau, because Z93 is very diverse on the Iranian Plateau and all the ancestors and the descendants of Z93 live on the Iranian Plateau.

 

[Maciamo]

@Maciamo,

The circa 2500 BC R1a-Z94 guy from Poltavka culture was a genetic outlier. He was genetically just like Sintashta, Corded Ware, etc. He was either an immigrant or from an early wave R1a-Z93 people from the West into the Steppe. The Poltavka culture itself probably had 0 or little R1a-Z93 or anykind of R1a, and was almost exclusively R1b-Z2103.

I wrote this in the R1b history and I stand by it:

When R1b crossed the Caucasus in the Late Neolithic, it split into two main groups. The western one (L51) would settle the eastern and northern of the Black Sea. The eastern one (Z2103 + M73) migrated to the Don-Volga region, where horses were domesticated circa 4600 BCE. R1b probably mixed with indigenous R1a people and founded the Repin culture (3700-3300 BCE) a bit before the Yamna culture came into existence in the western Pontic Steppe. R1b would then have migrated with horses along the Great Eurasian Steppe until the Altai mountains in East-Central Asia, where they established the Afanasevo culture (c. 3600-2400 BCE). Afanasevo people might be the precursors of the Tocharian branch of Indo-European languages alongside haplogroup R1a.

The R1b people who stayed in the Volga-Ural region were probably the initiators of the Poltavka culture (2700-2100 BCE), then became integrated into the R1a-dominant Sintashta-Petrovka culture (2100-1750 BCE) linked to the Indo-Aryan conquest of Central and South Asia.

The way I see it is that the Poltavka culture was originally R1b, but became progressively invaded by northern R1a-Z93 tribes until it became completely absorbed and gave way to the Sintashta-Petrovka culture. Archaeological cultures don't suddenly shift from one population to another. The replacement is gradual and often the result of external migrations. The same happened with the gradual increase of R1b lineages in Western Europe during the Bell Beaker period.

 

[Goga]

@ Fire Haired14


I don't know where you get your crazy ideas from? Z93 from UKRAINE??? WTF!!!! There's 0.00 % evidence for that...


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=24667786



R1a is cery diverse in West Asia, from the ancestorsto the descendants of Z93. There is EVERYTHING of R1a in West Asia.

Like R1b, also R1a is CONNECTED to GEDROSIA...

http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2014/03/underhill-et-al-2014.html

 

[Angela]

my guess - Q survived the LGM in Siberia, but not R who survived after moving further south near the Hindu Kush and after that R1 tribes moved west toward NW Iran, only after the youngest dryas some R1 tribes crossed the Caucasus to enter the steppe
this J was an individual they picked up south of the Caucasus, just like R1b-V88 learned about cattle herding from J

there is a 2014 study by Underhill claiming origin of R1a in NW Iran
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29701-New-R1a-Paper-by-Underhill-et-al-(2014

but your guesses are as good as mine

That's my guess as well. FWIW,

 

[Maciamo]

NO, you're wrong BIG time. There's some Z93 in Europe,but not much maybe a few %, but thats from Iranic folks from the East, likeSarmatians.

When you find ancient Z93 in West Asia it will be autosomally West Asian. Itsall bout the region where you find those skeletons.

R1a-Z93 NEVER came from Ukraine, what the **** are you talking about?? There isnot much of Z93 in Ukraine, only some from the Iranic folks.

Z93 was born somewhere on the Iranian Plateau, because Z93 is very diverse on the Iranian Plateau and all the ancestors and the descendants of Z93 live on the Iranian Plateau.

This is the same flawed logic that people used to justify that R1b originated in Western Europe during the Paleolithic (Cro-Magnons). Modern frequencies don't matter much if you don't look at the progressive migration of subclades over time.

Z93 is a subclade of the Northeast European R1a-S224 and almost certainly arose in north-west Russia. Because all the carriers of this lineage migrated east to Siberia, Central Asia then South Asia, then the Middle East, Z93 almost disappeared from its place of origin, and genetic diversity grew in the most populated regions where Z93 men migrated, namely West and South Asia.

If you are looking for a lineage with origins in Iran or Kurdistan, it is R1b, not R1a. Once again 'raw' modern frequencies don't help without in-depth analysis of the subclades and tracing back archaeological cultures which bore them.

 

[Goga]

This is the same flawed logic that people used to justify that R1b originated in Western Europe during the Paleolithic (Cro-Magnons). Modern frequencies don't matter much if you don't look at the progressive migration of subclades over time.

But there is no evidence at all that R1a-Z93 is from Ukraine. Nothing.

The fact is that Z93 is correlated with GEDROSIA (Iranid-like) auDNA. All folks that are partly Z93 are full of Gedrosia component. Kurds, Persians, Iranic and even Turkic folks in Central Asia, India, Pakistan, India those who have R1a-Z93 have Gedrosia in them. Gedrosia component is not from Ukraine, isn't it?



R1a-Z93, Z94, Z95 etc. = Caucaso-Gedrosian. Think about this one more time..

 

[Maciamo]

my guess - Q survived the LGM in Siberia, but not R who survived after moving further south near the Hindu Kush and after that R1 tribes moved west toward NW Iran, only after the youngest dryas some R1 tribes crossed the Caucasus to enter the steppe
this J was an individual they picked up south of the Caucasus, just like R1b-V88 learned about cattle herding from J

there is a 2014 study by Underhill claiming origin of R1a in NW Iran
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29701-New-R1a-Paper-by-Underhill-et-al-(2014

but your guesses are as good as mine

My guess is that both Q and R tribes roamed all over Siberia and Central Asia around the LGM. If they needed to seek refuge from the cold, both would have chosen Central Asia. One distinction within Q is that Q1a eventually spread mostly northward to Siberia (probably in the last 20,000 years, just as the LGM ended), while Q1b remained in Central Asia, then hitchhiked with R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2103 to the Middle East (see Q history for more details).

 

[LeBrok]

no farmers entered Egypt or Africa before the 8.2 ka climate event
)

We are in agreement, PP Neolithic started 8,000 BC, that's 10 kya, and way before 8.2 kya.

 

[bicicleur 2]

My guess is that both Q and R tribes roamed all over Siberia and Central Asia around the LGM. If they needed to seek refuge from the cold, both would have chosen Central Asia. One distinction within Q is that Q1a eventually spread mostly northward to Siberia (probably in the last 20,000 years, just as the LGM ended), while Q1b remained in Central Asia, then hitchhiked with R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2103 to the Middle East (see Q history for more details).

I believe Q*, Q1b, R1 and R2 survived south of central Asia (Hindu Kush - Kupruk area ? http://www.cemml.colostate.edu/cultural/09476/afgh05-009.html)
but Q1a1 and Q1a2 survived in Siberia

MA1 was 24000 yo and R*
but there was 2nd skeleton in the same study, AG2, 17000 yo with low coverage and related to MA1
AG2 has been tentatively identified as Q1a1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242

• Afontova-Gora2, Yenisei River Bank, Krasnoyarsk(Altai, South Siberia of Russia), 17000YBP: Q1a1-F1215(mtDNA R)^[53]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242

(by your good friend Genetiker)

IMO Q1a2-L56, ancestral to both Amerindian Q-M3 and Q-Z780 would have survived LGM on the (then dry bottom of the ) Sea of Ochotsk after retreating south from the Dyuktai cave area (Aldan river, tributary to Lena River)

 

[LeBrok]

Interesting new paper, although from what I have read so far it confirms everything we already suspected. As I had predicted many years ago, Sintashta evolved from Corded-Ware-related R1a population from north-west Russia, but obviously from a separate branch of R1a than the one that advanced to Poland, Germany and Scandinavia, since Central and South Asians descended from Sintashta are all R1a-Z93. That could easily be inferred from modern data.

It's nice to have some samples from the Khvalynsk culture confirming that both R1a1 and R1b1 were already in the Volga region by 5000 BCE. I am not surprised to find both haplogroups there since it is a buffer region between the southern R1b cultures (Yamna, Maykop) and the northern R1a cultures (Corded Ware, Abashevo, Sintashta).

Likewise, I had placed the Poltavka culture as a mixture of R1a and R1b on my migrations maps, and indeed it was so. The only minor surprise was the presence of Q1a in Khvalynsk, but it isn't far from Siberia and Central Asia, so a bit of admixture with neighbours is to be expected.



So Armenian-like R1b would have moved to the Pontic Steppe around 5200 BCE ? I needed confirmation on that point, but it is actually the timing I had suggested in my history of R1b. Here is what I wrote in 2009:



My migration map showed R1b crossing the Caucasus to the Pontic Steppe some time between 6000 and 5000 BCE, and my first migration map of R1b (the Flash version, which I can't paste on the forum) indicated 7000 ybp for that trans-Caucasian migration. So it is reassuring that was intuition was right on the timing as well as the geography.

What this paper and other recent papers on ancient Y-DNA have shown is that natural selection has been very active for Y-chromosomes in the last 8,000 years.

For example, what happened to the Anatolian and Balkanic Neolithic H2 ? If we look at region with very high G2a frequencies and EEF ancestry today like Sardinia, the Apennines or Georgia, there isn't any H2 anywhere. One possible explanation is that H2 Y-chromosomes were less competitive and produced less offspring, which gradually weeded it out from the population. But this seems to have happened for quite a few paternal lineages that were once common during the Mesolithic and throughout the Neolithic and even the Early Bronze Age, such as C1a2, F, I*, I2*, J*, K*, P1*, or R1*. The asterisk might as well serve as a reminder that these lineages didn't leave descendants, and therefore no further subclade is available today. Only their brothers or cousins with new mutations perpetuated those haplogroups and what became G2a3b1a, I1a, I2a1a, I2a2a, R1b1a2a1, R1a1a1a, and so on. C1a2, H2 and P1 never got the right mutations and are virtually extinct today.

In light of this, it would make a lot of sense if the tremendous success of R1a-M417 and R1b-L11 was not purely the result of superior Indo-European technology, warfare, conquest and political domination, but also of advantageous genetic mutations increasing male fertility on the one hand, but also typically male behavioral traits such as dominance, as I suggested in this thread.

The amount you got right so far is quite astonishing. I'm suspecting you are in possession of time machine.

 

[Maciamo]

But there is no evidence at all that R1a-Z93 is from Ukraine. Nothing.

The fact is that Z93 is correlated with GEDROSIA (Iranid-like) auDNA. All folks that are partly Z93 are full of Gedrosia component. Kurds, Persians, Iranic and even Turkic folks in Central Asia, India, Pakistan, India those who have R1a-Z93 have Gedrosia in them. Gedrosia component is not from Ukraine, isn't it?

R1a-Z93, Z94, Z95 etc. = Caucaso-Gedrosian. Think about this one more time..

Y-DNA doesn't correlate well with autosomal DNA because it gets diluted every generation by the maternal line once its leaves its region of origin. There are Z93 in Siberia and Mongolia that have almost nothing in common with Iranian or Indian Z93 - except for a little of East European admixture.

Anyway I never said Ukraine but north-west Russia. Ukraine was settled by R1b tribes, then was overrun by R1a-M458 (and some CTS1211).

 

[Goga]

Y-DNA doesn't correlate well with autosomal DNA because it gets diluted every generation by the maternal line once its leaves its region of origin. There are Z93 in Siberia and Mongolia that have almost nothing in common with Iranian or Indian Z93 - except for a little of East European admixture.

Anyway I never said Ukraine but north-west Russia. Ukraine was settled by R1b tribes, then was overrun by R1a-M458 (and some CTS1211).

I don't know much about diluting of auDNA, all I'm sure about is that original R1a and even original R1a-Z93 was heavily Caucaso-Gedrosian, NorthWest Russia is home for N1c1 and not R1a at all. There is no evidence for that. N1c1 is a Nordic haplogroup.

East European admixture in Siberia and Mongolia is from the assimilated Slavic (Russian) people. How many times Mongoloid people raided Eastern Europe and took (mostly female) prisoners with them?

The possibility is huge that R1a entered Europe from the Iranian Plateau via Turkmenistan/Kazakhstan (east of the Caspian Sea).

 

[arvistro]

I don't know much about diluting of auDNA, all I'm sure about is that original R1a and even original R1a-Z93 was heavily Caucaso-Gedrosian, NorthWest Russia is home for N1c1 and not R1a at all. There is no evidence for that. N1c1 is a Nordic haplogroup.

East European admixture in Siberia and Mongolia is from the assimilated Slavic (Russian) people. How many times Mongoloid people raided Eastern Europe and took (mostly female) prisoners with them?

The possibility is huge that R1a entered Europe from the Iranian Plateau via Turkmenistan/Kazakhstan (east of the Caspian Sea).

N arrived into NW Russia after R1a...

 

[Goga]

N arrived into NW Russia after R1a...

Don't think so. NortheWest Russia, Scandinavia, Balitcs were always home of people like Saami, Eskimos etc. Native peope of Northern Europe were Finno-Ugric, Uralic related to Saami and were Saami-like folks.