Debate Why Don't Feminists Fight for Muslim Women ???

[bicicleur 2]

I'm not making excuses--I'm being a thoughtful person who has a deep and complex understanding of human behavior and the issues at hand. You want me to say, "they are evil, terrible people who should be sent away" but human beings and life are far more complex than that.

Would I rather disaffected, disruptive, maladapted, violent, trouble making refugees/immigrants not be in Europe? YES. I am not blind to the problems they present. I understand Europe's frustrations and concerns. I don't want to deal with crap from ethnic European trouble makers, let alone foreign ones. But again, there are extenuating circumstances. These are poor, usually traumatized people who have no prospects and are just trying to get a leg up. Life has victimized them enough, why would I add to that and return them to misery? Like I said, these types of situations can get messy, unpleasant and uncomfortable, but I'm willing to make some sacrifices.

I do think Sweden needs to stop taking in more, especially for the time being, and focus on the ones that are already here because it is a bit out of control. But every other nation needs to pull their weight.



Isn't that why most immigrants leave their countries? To find a better life? As long as they are willing to work for it, I have no issues. Besides, Europe has taken and stolen enough resources from every other continent for centuries and so yes, yes, we had it coming.

oh yes you are looking for excuses
you know nothing about those Somalis on the video
nothing about their past nor about their intentions

 

[gyms]

Wanderlust:"I'm not making excuses--I'm being a thoughtful person who has a deep and complex understanding of human behavior and the issues at hand."

Do you have any understanding for the Swedish people too?

"These are poor, usually traumatized people..."
How do you know that? They have no ID cards.

 

[gyms]

"Life has victimized them enough..."

Muslim taxi driver refuses to take disabled passenger with his guide dog 'because it's against his religion'


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-passenger-guide-dog-s-against-religion.html

 

[Sile]

Women should be fighting the religions of Islam, Christianity and Judaism as they are all anti-female religions.

They should stop attending all services until they ( women ) get equality in ALL these religions .

I cannot believe how many men in this forum are anti women sexists ..........you guys should be flogged.

 

[gyms]

"Women should be fighting the religions of Islam, Christianity and Judaism as they are all anti-female religions."

Really?

Mary barely speaks in the New Testament, but her image and legacy are found and celebrated around the World.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2015/12/virgin-mary-text

Mary's life and role in the history of salvation is foreshadowed in the Old Testament, while the events of her life are recorded in the New Testament. Traditionally, she was declared the daughter of Sts. Joachim and Anne. Born in Jerusalem, Mary was presented in the Temple and took a vow of virginity. Living in Nazareth, Mary was visited by the archangel Gabriel, who announced to her that she would become the Mother of Jesus, by the Holy Spirit.
http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=4967

 

[gyms]

Migration as a Business: The Case of Trafficking

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/227947677_Migration_as_a_Business_The_Case_of_Trafficking
The article focuses on migrant trafficking, the core of the illegitimate business. Migrant trafficking, a subject of growing political concern, is recognized by migration experts and policy makers to be undermining international collaborative efforts to produce ordered migration flows. Trafficking, widely condemned for its inhuman practices and links to international organized crime, is also believed to be increasing in scale and sophistication. Our model conceives of trafficking as an intermediary part of the global migration business facilitating movement of people between origin and destination countries. The model is divided into three stages: the mobilization and recruitment of migrants; their movement en route; and their insertion and integration into labour markets and host societies of destination countries.

https://www.oecd.org/migration/Can we put an end to human smuggling.pdf
In the first ten months of 2015, more than 1.2 million illegal border crossings at the external border of the EU have been detected, a level never seen before in Europe. Available evidence suggests that irregular migration also persists in other parts of the world at high levels. Most of the migrants who use these routes put their lives in the hands of unscrupulous human smugglers and traffickers, who make big money out of this business. Tackling these crimes has become a top priority for policy makers.

Top 10 of 2015 – Issue #4: Big Business of Smuggling Enables Mass Movement of People for Enormous Profits
[url]http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/top-10-2015-issue-4-big-business-smuggling-enables-mass-movement-people-enormous-profits[/URL]

Smuggling routes to Europe resemble a vast, complex chain, stretching from points in southern Africa and Central Asia to the Mediterranean. While there is no such thing as a single global smuggling network, routes are developed through a series of systems and crossroads that fan like webs across entire continents. The nationalities of those arriving are diverse, with migrants and would-be asylum seekers engaging multiple smuggling services along the way.

http://www.spiegel.de/international...f-islamic-state-business-model-a-1011492.html
Shelley: I have noticed that in Germany there is little research on the linkages of these phenomena. There is also little basic analysis on the non-traditional security challenges facing Germany today. Germany is surrounded by many regions of the world where dirty entanglements are pervasive -- North Africa, the Balkans, and the Middle East. Germany does not control its borders any more. Yet there is little analysis on the consequences of this for Germany. Few researchers are studying the reasons for, and the dimensions of, illicit migration into Germany. In my conversations with the German government, I talked about an African country that nobody has on the radar, but because of its abundant natural resources, dozens of trans-national criminal organizations are active there. I was asked: How do you know that? And I replied: Because I do research! Germany was once known for its research tradition. It should remember that.

 

[LeBrok]

Wanderlust:"I'm not making excuses--I'm being a thoughtful person who has a deep and complex understanding of human behavior and the issues at hand."

Do you have any understanding for the Swedish people too?

"These are poor, usually traumatized people..."
How do you know that? They have no ID cards.

And from ID cards you would learn their wealth and psychological state?
Impeccable logic, dude.

 

[LeBrok]

"Life has victimized them enough..."

Muslim taxi driver refuses to take disabled passenger with his guide dog 'because it's against his religion'


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-passenger-guide-dog-s-against-religion.html

Anegdotal evidance is a great tool to learn about human nature:

I'm being a thoughtful person who has a deep and complex understanding of human behavior and the issues at hand."

And how come you are missing all anecdotal stories about crazy christians? Should I help you? I know how to google and post it on this thread.

 

[LeBrok]

Migration as a Business: The Case of Trafficking

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/227947677_Migration_as_a_Business_The_Case_of_Trafficking
The article focuses on migrant trafficking, the core of the illegitimate business. Migrant trafficking, a subject of growing political concern, is recognized by migration experts and policy makers to be undermining international collaborative efforts to produce ordered migration flows. Trafficking, widely condemned for its inhuman practices and links to international organized crime, is also believed to be increasing in scale and sophistication. Our model conceives of trafficking as an intermediary part of the global migration business facilitating movement of people between origin and destination countries. The model is divided into three stages: the mobilization and recruitment of migrants; their movement en route; and their insertion and integration into labour markets and host societies of destination countries.

https://www.oecd.org/migration/Can we put an end to human smuggling.pdf
In the first ten months of 2015, more than 1.2 million illegal border crossings at the external border of the EU have been detected, a level never seen before in Europe. Available evidence suggests that irregular migration also persists in other parts of the world at high levels. Most of the migrants who use these routes put their lives in the hands of unscrupulous human smugglers and traffickers, who make big money out of this business. Tackling these crimes has become a top priority for policy makers.

Top 10 of 2015 – Issue #4: Big Business of Smuggling Enables Mass Movement of People for Enormous Profits
http://www.migrationpolicy.org/arti...enables-mass-movement-people-enormous-profits

Smuggling routes to Europe resemble a vast, complex chain, stretching from points in southern Africa and Central Asia to the Mediterranean. While there is no such thing as a single global smuggling network, routes are developed through a series of systems and crossroads that fan like webs across entire continents. The nationalities of those arriving are diverse, with migrants and would-be asylum seekers engaging multiple smuggling services along the way.

http://www.spiegel.de/international...f-islamic-state-business-model-a-1011492.html
Shelley: I have noticed that in Germany there is little research on the linkages of these phenomena. There is also little basic analysis on the non-traditional security challenges facing Germany today. Germany is surrounded by many regions of the world where dirty entanglements are pervasive -- North Africa, the Balkans, and the Middle East. Germany does not control its borders any more. Yet there is little analysis on the consequences of this for Germany. Few researchers are studying the reasons for, and the dimensions of, illicit migration into Germany. In my conversations with the German government, I talked about an African country that nobody has on the radar, but because of its abundant natural resources, dozens of trans-national criminal organizations are active there. I was asked: How do you know that? And I replied: Because I do research! Germany was once known for its research tradition. It should remember that.

Anything about supporting rights of muslim women, on topic, or you stuck in your anti muslim fits?

 

[Garrick]

Women should be fighting the religions of Islam, Christianity and Judaism as they are all anti-female religions.

They should stop attending all services until they ( women ) get equality in ALL these religions .

I cannot believe how many men in this forum are anti women sexists ..........you guys should be flogged.

I don't believe that people are anti women sexists but discussion moved off thread, some new thread could be about multiculturalism, Europe and Islam.

In regards to thread I said, nobody should blame feminists, non-Muslims (men or women all the same) have very very limited opportunities to meddle in internal Muslim issues.

Seen from the side someone may look scary however it is their internal matter.

Quran, Sunnah and Haddith provide gender role, Sharia law elaborate, every Muslim man and Muslim woman must follow these rules.

Only Muslim feminists can change something, but only things which are not written in Quran and Haddith, or which are taken from non-Muslim practice.

 

[Wanderlust]

Please stop the crap.
Shi'ites and Sunni are killing each other allready 1300 years, from the 3rd Islamic generation, and the west has nothing to do with that.
They are fanatics and everyone that does not agree with them are kafirs.

I'm flabbergasted by people on anthropology forums who don't understand context and nuance, especially because those are traits very important to every field of anthropology. I intentionally speak with much nuance. Evidently, it's lost on you.

oh yes you are looking for excuses
you know nothing about those Somalis on the video
nothing about their past nor about their intentions

I don't need to know the Somalis in the video in order to give an informed, thoughtful opinion because I have known many Somalis very much like the ones in the video and I'm also fairly familiar with the internal logic that informs them as a culture. As someone who has actually studied socio-cultural anthropology, I'm used to making sense of behaviors that outsiders may find bizarre or perplexing. Again, I am amazed that this must be said on an anthropology forum, and to a purported "advisor," no less. It's absolutely amazing.

I must continually remind myself that many anthrophora are more concerned with outdated pseudo-scientific physical anthropology where racism and ethnocentrism dominate and concepts like cultural relativism are unheard of or flat out ignored. It's rather intellectually disappointing.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I'm flabbergasted by people on anthropology forums who don't understand context and nuance, especially because those are traits very important to every field of anthropology. I intentionally speak with much nuance. Evidently, it's lost on you.



I don't need to know the Somalis in the video in order to give an informed, thoughtful opinion because I have known many Somalis very much like the ones in the video and I'm also fairly familiar with the internal logic that informs them as a culture. As someone who has actually studied socio-cultural anthropology, I'm used to making sense of behaviors that outsiders may find bizarre or perplexing. Again, I am amazed that this must be said on an anthropology forum, and to a purported "advisor," no less. It's absolutely amazing.

I must continually remind myself that many anthrophora are more concerned with outdated pseudo-scientific physical anthropology where racism and ethnocentrism dominate and concepts like cultural relativism are unheard of or flat out ignored. It's rather intellectually disappointing.

there is no nuance at all in your argumentation, it is very one-sided and sometimes irrelevant
that is what I argue against
but if you believe that because of your higher intelligence and your education I'm unable to grasp what you're saying, the discussion is finished
that believe comes from your own political correct convictions
I'm sure I can't heal you from that

 

[Wanderlust]

there is no nuance at all in your argumentation, it is very one-sided and sometimes irrelevant

I believe your lack of comprehension is the issue because I've had to repeat myself several times and you still don't get it. Perhaps it's just a language difficulty and not an intellectual one. Or it could be both.

but if you believe that because of your higher intelligence and your education I'm unable to grasp what you're saying, the discussion is finished

Agreed.

that believe comes from your own political correct convictions
I'm sure I can't heal you from that

Nor can I heal you from your bigoted, plebeian myopia. Cheers, nonetheless!

 

[bicicleur 2]

I believe your lack of comprehension is the issue because I've had to repeat myself several times and you still don't get it. Perhaps it's just a language difficulty and not an intellectual one. Or it could be both.



Agreed.



Nor can I heal you from your bigoted, plebeian myopia. Cheers, nonetheless!

thanks, you just proved me right

 

[Garrick]

Anything about supporting rights of muslim women, on topic, or you stuck in your anti muslim fits?

I don't think that people here are anti Muslim. Even maybe if someone says some stronger word and it can be understood.

Key problem is that Muslims should harmonize their religion with 21 century. But I gave reason why Ulama will not do it.

And what is result. Angela and I discussed about this a long. And yesterday, today, tomorrow... the same target as a distance. When someone comes to live in a country he or she should behave according to the laws of that country.

But a lot of Muslims no, because for them Sharia law (based on Quran, Sunnah, Haddith) is above state law.

You can see for example new research in Germany:

Deutche Welle

Study: Large number of Turks in Germany put Islam above the law

http://www.dw.com/en/study-large-number-of-turks-in-germany-put-islam-above-the-law/a-19336757

 

[gyms]

I believe your lack of comprehension is the issue because I've had to repeat myself several times and you still don't get it. Perhaps it's just a language difficulty and not an intellectual one. Or it could be both.



Agreed.



Nor can I heal you from your bigoted, plebeian myopia. Cheers, nonetheless!

National nihilism is a manifestation of the antipatriotic ideology of bourgeois cosmopolitanism, disrespect for the national pride and the national dignity of peoples. Comrade Stalin said: "National nihilism only injures the cause of socialism, acting as a tool for bourgeois nationalists." (Works, Vol. 4, p. 91). Comrade Stalin strongly spoke out against those who suggested that "the struggle with nationalism must at the same time throw away everything that is national." (Works, Vol. 5, p. 311). National nihilism in our conditions is a form of struggle chosen by rootless-cosmopolitans against Soviet patriotism, against Soviet culture (national in form, socialist in content); it is a display of their cringing before bourgeois culture. In this way, national nihilism with its attitude towards the Great Russian people and the other peoples of our nation, time and again was linked [in the minds of] rootless cosmopolitans with bourgeois nationalism, which today is inseparably tied with the cosmopolitan ideology of the imperialist bourgeoisie.
Comrade Stalin , Comrade Stalin , Comrade Stalin ...
http://www.cyberussr.com/rus/chernov/chernov-cosmo-e.html

 

[Sile]

"Women should be fighting the religions of Islam, Christianity and Judaism as they are all anti-female religions."

Really?

Mary barely speaks in the New Testament, but her image and legacy are found and celebrated around the World.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2015/12/virgin-mary-text

Mary's life and role in the history of salvation is foreshadowed in the Old Testament, while the events of her life are recorded in the New Testament. Traditionally, she was declared the daughter of Sts. Joachim and Anne. Born in Jerusalem, Mary was presented in the Temple and took a vow of virginity. Living in Nazareth, Mary was visited by the archangel Gabriel, who announced to her that she would become the Mother of Jesus, by the Holy Spirit.
http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=4967

Really!
The church called her a prostitute and started to defile her from Roman days until present. Is this not fact?

She was a Phoenician Priestess ( practicing the phoenician religion ) and was no prostitute

 

[Sile]

I don't believe that people are anti women sexists but discussion moved off thread, some new thread could be about multiculturalism, Europe and Islam.

In regards to thread I said, nobody should blame feminists, non-Muslims (men or women all the same) have very very limited opportunities to meddle in internal Muslim issues.

Seen from the side someone may look scary however it is their internal matter.

Quran, Sunnah and Haddith provide gender role, Sharia law elaborate, every Muslim man and Muslim woman must follow these rules.

Only Muslim feminists can change something, but only things which are not written in Quran and Haddith, or which are taken from non-Muslim practice.

Passing the buck

We ( westerner Governments ) should demand eqaulity in all aspect of society ...including ALL religions practiced in the nation. If tthe religions do not change there anti-female theories, then the religion should be removed.
I see no women bishops , Popes or cardinals, no female clerics, no female have zero equal rights in regards to islam, judasism or christians religious practices.

 

[Sile]

Islam Is Actually A Feminist Religion: 5 Myths About Islam

Today, society’s most prominent ills are frequently attributed to Islam. Islam’s own view is then dismissed. Given the daily misfortunes we witness, the urge to have a catch-all blame name is understandable. However, that does not mitigate the absurdity of this practice.
Gender discrimination is one of the most overwhelming and ill-founded allegations used to discredit Islam. Yet gender discrimination does not actually exist in Islam — I know, bold claim. To prove this, below are five popular myths (gathered from Facebook, my informal pollster) which perpetuate this gross stereotype. Each will be addressed in turn, with reference to evidence-based analysis.
http://www.mintpressnews.com/MyMPN/islam-actually-feminist-religion-5-myths-islam/

Islam: A Religion of Peace

Islam is a religion of peace in the fullest sense of the word. The Qur’an calls its way ‘the paths of peace’ (5:16). It states that God abhors any disturbance of peace (2:205).
In fact the root word of Islam is ‘silm’ which itself means peace. So the spirit of Islam is the spirit of peace. The first verse of the Qur’an breathes the spirit of peace. It reads: In the name of God, the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate.
http://www.cpsglobal.org/content/islam-religion-peace

When did you see a female islamic cleric ?

 

[Wanderlust]

thanks, you just proved me right

Likewise. :grin:

National nihilism is a manifestation of the antipatriotic ideology of bourgeois cosmopolitanism, disrespect for the national pride and the national dignity of peoples.

Yeah, I guess.

Any pride I have as a person is not attached to Europe, Sweden or being European and Swedish because I had no choice in that--I didn't ask to be Swedish; I didn't ask to be born here; I just was, and that's ok, but it was unearned. I love many things about Europe and Sweden, in particular. But my pride comes from my own exploits and endeavors, as everyone's should.

It's no wonder that many who form the foundation of these far right, nationalist movements are perpetually insecure and afraid, un/under-educated, unemployed, and usually have nothing going on for themselves; therefore, their only or primary source of pride is rooted in vague, malleable cultural abstractions of nationalism or achievements by others who share their nationality; they piggyback off of the exploits and achievements of others, as if that gives them value and worth, too. And they are wrong. Just because Bach and Nietzsche were brilliant, doesn't mean all Germans are. Why should some pig farmer in Choppenburg feel better about himself because of Goethe?

Most of what I love about Swedish culture I could find in Norway, Denmark, Hamburg, or Seattle. "Swedishness" is not so unique and special. A lot of different cultures all across the globe are "Swedish" at heart. And for the last time, the fact that people on an anthropology board don't know that there are many universal human truths that unite us more than national borders, is saddening.