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How do Balts perceive Belarusians?

Milan said:
Many linguists say that at some time all the way to Moscow Baltic language was spoken,later replaced by Slavic according to toponyms.
I guess it wasn't so hard for Baltic speaker to adopt Slavic language,the 10th century seem plausible with Christianisation,Old Church Slavic was liturgic language,recognized and with it's own alphabet,whereas the Baltic speakers were marginalized.
Click to expand...


Eastern Galindians (Голядь) were Balts living in what's today western Moscow region, as well as outskirts of Moscow. It's unclear if eastern Golindians were western, eastern or so-called Dniepr Balts. Moscow derives its name from Moscow (Moskva) river. The hydronym is Baltic in origin. Moskva has similar etymology to the following Baltic terms


Lithuanian mazgoti - to wash
Latvian mazgāt - to wash
Latgalian mozgova - washed.

Linguist specialising on Baltic languages Toporov wrote Ancient Moscow in Baltic perspective

Топоров В. Н. Древняя Москва в балтийской перспективе // Балто-славянские исследования 1981. М., 1982. . Источник : http://www.inslav.ru/images/stories/books/BSI1981(1982).pdf


Text in Russian
http://s2.postimg.org/ydib1laq1/image.png
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[TABLE="class: table table--article-section, width: 768"]
[TR="class: table__row"]
[TH="class: table__header-data, align: left"]Population[/TH]
[TH="class: table__header-data, align: left"]Sample size (n)[/TH]
[TH="class: table__header-data table__header-data--center, colspan: 7, align: center"]Haplogroup frequecy%[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: table__row"]
[TH="class: table__header-data table__header-data--center, align: center"]P* (xR1a)[/TH]
[TH="class: table__header-data table__header-data--center, align: center"]BR* (xDE,JR)[/TH]
[TH="class: table__header-data table__header-data--center, align: center"]R1a[/TH]
[TH="class: table__header-data table__header-data--center, align: center"]DE[/TH]
[TH="class: table__header-data table__header-data--center, align: center"]N3[/TH]
[TH="class: table__header-data table__header-data--center, align: center"]K* (xN3,P)[/TH]
[TH="class: table__header-data table__header-data--center, align: center"]Haplogroup
diversity +/− SD[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: table__row"]
[TD="class: table__data, colspan: 9"]
  1. a data from Laitinen et al. 2002.
  2. b data from Rosser et al. 2000.
  3. c data from this study is not included.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: table__row"]
[TD="class: table__data, colspan: 9"]Aukštaičiai:[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: table__row"]
[TD="class: table__data"]East aukštaičiai[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]40[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.0[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]17.5[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]35.0[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]2.5[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]45.0[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.0[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.660+/−0.039[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: table__row"]
[TD="class: table__data"]South aukštaičiai[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]34[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]2.9[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]2.9[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]61.8[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]2.9[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]29.4[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.0[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.546+/−0.071[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: table__row"]
[TD="class: table__data"]West aukštaičiai[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]32[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]6.3[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]9.4[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]40.6[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]6.3[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]34.4[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]3.1[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.722+/−0.052[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: table__row"]
[TD="class: table__data"]Aukštaičiai total[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]106[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]2.8[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]10.4[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]45.3[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]3.8[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]36.8[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.9[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.653+/−0.027[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: table__row"]
[TD="class: table__data, colspan: 9"]Žemaičiai:[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: table__row"]
[TD="class: table__data"]North žemaičiai[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]26[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]15.4[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]3.9[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]42.3[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.0[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]38.5[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.0[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.674+/−0.050[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: table__row"]
[TD="class: table__data"]South žemaičiai[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]34[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]5.9[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]8.8[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]50.0[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.0[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]35.3[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.0[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.633+/−0.053[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: table__row"]
[TD="class: table__data"]West žemaičiai[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]30[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]3.3[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]16.7[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]40.0[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]3.3[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]36.7[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.0[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.699+/−0.046[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: table__row"]
[TD="class: table__data"]Žemaičiai total[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]90[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]7.8[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]10.0[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]44.4[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]1.1[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]36.7[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.0[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.659+/−0.029[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: table__row"]
[TD="class: table__data"]Lithuanians total[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]196[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]5.1[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]10.2[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]44.9[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]2.6[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]36.7[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.653+/−0.020[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: table__row"]
[TD="class: table__data"]Latvians a,b,c[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]148[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]10.8[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]8.8[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]39.9[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.7[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]39.9[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.0[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.667+/−0.021[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: table__row"]
[TD="class: table__data"]Estonians a,b,c[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]325[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]7.4[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]16.9[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]30.8[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]2.8[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]35.7[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]6.5[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.741+/−0.012[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: table__row"]
[TD="class: table__data"]Polish b[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]112[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]17.9[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]20.6[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]54.5[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]1.8[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]4.5[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.9[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.633+/−0.037[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: table__row"]
[TD="class: table__data"]Belarusians b[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]41[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]9.8[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]36.6[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]39.0[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]9.8[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]2.4[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]2.4[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.711+/−0.043[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: table__row"]
[TD="class: table__data"]Rusians b[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]122[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]6.6[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]21.3[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]46.7[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]6.6[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]13.9[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]4.9[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.712+/−0.031[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: table__row"]
[TD="class: table__data"]Finnish b[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]57[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]1.8[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]22.8[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]10.5[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]1.8[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]61.4[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]1.8[/TD]
[TD="class: table__data"]0.569+/−0.060[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1529-8817.2003.00119.x/full

According to this study (old study of 2004), Lithuanians are very homogeneous. The linguistic differences are mainly due to serfdom times when peasants could not travel freely. Of course Western Baltic tribes might have been different - for instance Southern Aukštaičiai, who live in the territory of former Jotvingiai, have more R1a (62%) and less N1c1 (29%) compared to the rest of Lithuanians.
 
Archaeological cultures listed below are widely considered Baltic by archaeologists. The Baltic archaeological cultures located in Lithuania, Latvia, north-eastern Poland, Belarus , western Russia. I will indicate the ones that were also found on territories of present day Belarus

Western Baltic Barrow and related cultures
Stroked-pottery culture 7BC-5AD (northern & central Belarus)
Dniepr-Dvina cultures 8BC-4AD (central and eastern Belarus)
Moshinskaya culture 4AD-6AD related to Dniepr-Dvina culture
Upper-Oka culture of Iron age related to dniepr-Dvina culture
Milograd culture 7BC-1AD (southern Belarus)
Yukhnovskaya culture 5BC-2BC (south-eastern Belarus)
Eastern lithuanian barrow culture 3AD-12AD (north-western Belarus)
Bantser-tushemlya archeological culture – 4AD-6AD (eastern Belarus)
Stone barrow culture 4AD-13AD (culture of Yotvingians, western Belarus)
Possibly Kolichinsk (5AD-7AD) and Kiev (2AD-5AD) archaeological cultures.
 
Dagne said:
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[TH="class: table__header-data, align: left"][/TH]
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[TH="class: table__header-data table__header-data--center, colspan: 7, align: center"][/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: table__row"]
[TH="class: table__header-data table__header-data--center, align: center"][/TH]
[TH="class: table__header-data table__header-data--center, align: center"][/TH]
[TH="class: table__header-data table__header-data--center, align: center"][/TH]
[TH="class: table__header-data table__header-data--center, align: center"][/TH]
[TH="class: table__header-data table__header-data--center, align: center"][/TH]
[TH="class: table__header-data table__header-data--center, align: center"][/TH]
[TH="class: table__header-data table__header-data--center, align: center"][/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: table__row"]
[TD="class: table__data, colspan: 9"][/TD]
[/TR]
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According to this study (old study of 2004), Lithuanian are very homogeneous. The linguistic differences are mainly due to serfdom times when peasants could not travel freely. Of course Western Baltic tribes might have been different - for instance Southern Aukštaičiai, who live in the territory of former Jotvingiai, have more R1a (62%) and less N1c1 (29%) compared to the rest of Lithuanians.
Click to expand...

Southern Aukštaičiai (Dzukai) have a lot more R1a than the rest of Lithuanians. 62% among them in comparison to nation wide which is 45%. I've seen several genome-wide (autosomal DNA) profiles of them .They tend to be more southern than other Lithuanians. I didn't mean Lithuanians are completely different from each other genetically. But there are differences if you look for them
 
I asked about the people of Brest cause historians prior claimed that the South Slavic-Berziti (Brsjaci) are the same with the people that settled Brest,both names coming from Birch-tree,Breza or Bereza perhaps in Eastern Slavic.
 
Milan said:
I asked about the people of Brest cause historians prior claimed that the South Slavic-Berziti (Brsjaci) are the same with the people that settled Brest,both names coming supposedly from Birch-tree,Breza or Bereza perhaps in Eastern Slavic.
Click to expand...

Brest city was founded by eastern Slavic tribe Dryhavičy (Dregoviches in English literature). The term Dryhva means a swamp in Belarusian. There were Polians (field or meadow settlers), Drevlyans (settlers in the woods ) and Dryhavičy (people who settled on the swamps). The very southern part of Brest region was settled by Volynians . The ancestors of Volynians were Buzhans who derived their name from the river Bug. There's very little known about Buzhans.
 
Brest is a twisted version of Polish term of the city. The original name of Brest in east Slavic languages is Берестье (Berest'ye.) . That's a birch-bark.
 
Volat said:
Brest city was founded by eastern Slavic tribe Dryhavičy (Dregoviches in English literature). The term Dryhva means a swamp in Belarusian. There were Polians (field or meadow settlers), Drevlyans (settlers in the woods ) and Dryhavičy (people who settled on the swamps). The very southern part of Brest region was settled by Volynians . The ancestors of Volynians were Buzhans who derived their name from the river Bug. There's very little known about Buzhans.
Click to expand...
So there wasn't a separate tribe called Berziti or known among us as Brsjaci,thought by their neighbors they are called "Brzi"(fast ones) sometimes probably by their impulsive behavior,their name survive to this day.
We also had a tribe "Drugovitai"(Greek form)of another tribe in Macedonia or maybe union of tribes,but their name probably is coming from "drug"(friend).
11th-century Byzantine seal of an anonymous "krites (civil governor) of the Drougoubitai"

Seal_of_a_judge_of_the_Drougoubites.jpg
 
Sorry again some connect this tribe Drugovitai with Dregoviches in Belarussia,but apparently we have no such word Dryhva for swamp,also they did not settled swampy areas.
 
Milan said:
So there wasn't a separate tribe called Berziti or known among us as Brsjaci,thought by their neighbors they are called "Brzi"(fast ones) sometimes probably by their impulsive behavior,their name survive to this day.
We also hade a tribe "Drugovitai"(Greek form) or maybe union of tribes in Macedonia,but their name probably is coming from "drug"(friend).
11th-century Byzantine seal of an anonymous "krites (civil governor) of the Drougoubitai"
Click to expand...



There was no eastern Slavic tribe known as Berziti. The name 'Berziti' does not sound east Slavic in my ears. I am certain it's not an eastern Slavic term. Unlike western and southern Slavic languages , eastern Slavic languages has linguistic feature known as 'polnoglasie'.

(linguistics) The phenomena of disyllabic -oro-, -ere- and -olo- reflexes in East Slavic languages of Late Proto-Slavic closed syllable clusters involving a vowel *a, *o, *e followed by a liquid *r or *l.You can search for more information on the Internet on this.

In eastern Slavic languages 'Berziti' would be pronounced as 'Bereziti'. But there was no such Slavic tribe in Belarus or eastern Slavia.

The city of Brest was founded in 10th-11th centuries. There is a museum of ancient Brest. The picture below shows earliest Brest settlement in early 13th century.


Berestye.jpg
 
Those are all Byzantine(Greek) terms of names,Brsjak plural Brsjaci is the name we used,on the others they do not survive in the present day,some were just named after hydronym,settlers around river Struma were dubbed Strymonitai by Byzantines,Timok river-Timocani etc some names are meaningless,was interested in those couple of things also regional genetics,thanks anyway.
 
Milan said:
Those are all Byzantine(Greek) terms of names,Brsjak plural Brsjaci is the name we used,on the others they do not survive in the present day,some were just named after hydronym,settlers around river Struma were dubbed Strymonitai by Byzantines,Timok river-Timocani etc some names are meaningless,was interested in those couple of things also regional genetics,thanks anyway.
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Okay! I was referencing general information available in our academic literature. We have early chronicle accounting for Slavic tribes and non-Slavic tribes compiled in Kiev by monk Nestor around 1113. This is known as Primary Chronicle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle

There are other chronicles around that time confirming Slavic and non-Slavic tribes of eastern Europe.

If you want to know the tribes that settled on territories of present day Belarus in the last 1,500 years, then those were

Slavs:
Dryhaviches (southern Belarus and the largest group of people on territories of Belarus), Volynians (most south-western Belarus).

Balto-Slavs:
Polochans (Kryvičy) (central, eastern and northern Belarus who were also one of the largest and influential group), Radzimiches (south-eastern Belarus).

Balts:
Yotvingians (western Belarus), Lithuanians (north-western Belarus, quite an important group of people in our history), Latgalians (north-eastern Belarus), Dniepr Balts (eastern Belarus).
 
Of those Slavic tribes Dregovichi were neighbors of Yatwings and Krivichi neighbors of to be Latvians. Since those two tribes call all East Slavs based on their neighbors (I.e. krievi)
 
arvistro said:
Of those Slavic tribes Dregovichi were neighbors of Yatwings and Krivichi neighbors of to be Latvians. Since those two tribes call all East Slavs based on their neighbors (I.e. krievi)
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Dregovichi were neighbours to every other tribe on territories of present day Belarus. They were quite a large group of people. I forgot to mention refugees from Prussia settling in Belarus attested in chronicles. Prussians escaped German invasion in the 13th century settling on territories of present day Lithuania and Belarus.
 
Volat said:
Dregovichi were neighbours to every other tribe on territories of present day Belarus. They were quite a large group of people. I forgot to mention refugees from Prussia settling in Belarus attested in chronicles. Prussians escaped German invasion in the 13th century settling on territories of present day Lithuania and Belarus.
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Yeah, but for Yatwings they would be closest East Slavs.
 
arvistro said:
Yeah, but for Yatwings they would be closest East Slavs.
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Maybe. Some linguists stated that western Baltic languages are more similar to Slavic languages than eastern Baltic languages to Slavic languages. Maybe Yotvingians and other western Balts were closer to Slavs. :)
 
Some results from a recent servey June-July 2016 on how Belarus is viewed in Lithuania.

A survey was conducted among Lithuanians and ethnic minorities of Lithuania – Poles, Russians, Belarusians, Jews and other ethnicities.There were 500 people from ethnic minorities surveyed in different districts of Lithuania by Baltijos tyrimai/ Gallup.


Of 500 ethnic minority respondents 55% were women aged between 50-74, 46% were Poles, 35% Russians, 8% Belarusians, 6% Ukrainians, 2% Jews and other ethnicities. 83% of respondents were born in Lithuania. Margin of error around 4.5%

Belarus is seen as a friendly country : Poles 96.4%, Russians 88.9%
55.1% of all Lithuanians viewed Belarus as a friendly country too.So, it's fifty-fifty for Lithuanians. I guess politics and unnecessary negative rhetoric of politicians influence opinions of people.

Also,

Russia is seen as a friendly country : Russians 66.14%, Poles 63.86.
Russia is seen as not as friendly country : 71,4% Lithuanians viewed the country negatively.


http://ru.delfi.lt/news/live/nacmenshinstva-litvy-ocenili-putina-i-gribauskajte.d?id=72329898
 
LeBrok said:
This is suspecious to say the least.
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Poles of Lithuania are different to Poles of Poland. Russians and Poles of Lithuania are to the same schools and watching Russian TV. They vote for the same politicians.
 
Volat said:
Poles of Lithuania are different to Poles of Poland. Russians and Poles of Lithuania are to the same schools and watching Russian TV. They vote for the same politicians.
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Yes, that is correct. Probably they also speak Russian better than Polish.
 
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