What is happening in Poland?

[Angela]

See:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ory.html?postshare=7631482112387306&tid=ss_tw

" In merely a year, critics say, the nationalists have transformed Poland into a surreal and insular place — one where state-sponsored conspiracy theories and de facto propaganda distract the public as democracy erodes."

"Polish scientists are aghast at proposed curriculum changes in a new education bill that would downplay evolution theory and climate change and add hours for “patriotic” history lessons. In a Facebook chat, a top equal rights official mused that Polish hotels should not be forced to provide service to black or gay customers. After the official stepped down for unrelated reasons, his successor rejected an international convention to combat violence against women because it appeared to argue against traditional gender roles."

"To draft new sexual-education classes in schools, it tapped a contraceptives opponent who argues that condom use increases the risk of cancer in women. The government is proffering a law that critics say could soon be used to limit opposition protests."

"The new government doled out money to families with children. They also slashed Poland’s retirement age — to as young as 60 for women and 65 for men.
Opponents call such actions the “buying” of support, moves that will only drive up Polish debt and masquerade a long-term power grab that could entrench Law and Justice for years.
But right now, for many Poles, nationalism has never felt so good."

All I can say is, Wow!

 

[Yetos]

Visengrad is the 'future',

do not worry about their debts,
Soon wi th USA army will gather many busineess and corporations, founded by NATO and banks etc etc,
Visengrad will face a huge transform the next ten years,
they will industialize too much, so to destroy every effort of Russia for industrial developement,
the next ten years, we will see people migrate there to work,
many Poles and Czechs and Slovaks and Hungarians will regreat that left their homeland.
a new smaglers zone is about to be built in Morava an Ukraine, so to 'bargain and trade'.
Do not worry about them, soon they be ahead in industrial production

 

[bicicleur 2]

See:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ory.html?postshare=7631482112387306&tid=ss_tw

" In merely a year, critics say, the nationalists have transformed Poland into a surreal and insular place — one where state-sponsored conspiracy theories and de facto propaganda distract the public as democracy erodes."

"Polish scientists are aghast at proposed curriculum changes in a new education bill that would downplay evolution theory and climate change and add hours for “patriotic” history lessons. In a Facebook chat, a top equal rights official mused that Polish hotels should not be forced to provide service to black or gay customers. After the official stepped down for unrelated reasons, his successor rejected an international convention to combat violence against women because it appeared to argue against traditional gender roles."

"To draft new sexual-education classes in schools, it tapped a contraceptives opponent who argues that condom use increases the risk of cancer in women. The government is proffering a law that critics say could soon be used to limit opposition protests."

"The new government doled out money to families with children. They also slashed Poland’s retirement age — to as young as 60 for women and 65 for men.
Opponents call such actions the “buying” of support, moves that will only drive up Polish debt and masquerade a long-term power grab that could entrench Law and Justice for years.
But right now, for many Poles, nationalism has never felt so good."

All I can say is, Wow!

I don't know, Angela, I await confirmation.

US elections showed me the press is not always meticulous, neither unbiased.

Furthermore the article anounces itself as hear-say : 'critics say'.

Here in Belgium I now sometimes read 2 different stories in the same paper on the same subject, depending on the 'reporter' who wrote it.
And then they say social media is spreading false or misleading info?
Always double-check.

 

[LeBrok]

Definitely conservative/catholics are fighting back against modern changes. At the moment pendulum has swung their way.

 

[Angela]

I don't know, Angela, I await confirmation.

US elections showed me the press is not always meticulous, neither unbiased.

Furthermore the article anounces itself as hear-say : 'critics say'.

Here in Belgium I now sometimes read 2 different stories in the same paper on the same subject, depending on the 'reporter' who wrote it.
And then they say social media is spreading false or misleading info?
Always double-check.

As usual, we agree about the danger of taking anything in the media too seriously.

I sincerely hope laws like this aren't being passed. It would be very sad if a European nation were to turn it's back on not only the future but the present, and try to march backward into the past as the Islamic world has done.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Yetos, I hate to disappoint, but if Poland passes laws taking away the civil rights of gays, minorities, including Jews, bans contraception, etc., I doubt a lot of countries will want to invest. It will be like South Africa. After all, they don't have oil, for goodness' sakes.

 

[Yetos]

As usual, we agree about the danger of taking anything in the media too seriously.

I sincerely hope laws like this aren't being passed. It would be very sad if a European nation were to turn it's back on not only the future but the present, and try to march backward into the past as the Islamic world has done.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Yetos, I hate to disappoint, but if Poland passes laws taking away the civil rights of gays, minorities, including Jews, bans contraception, etc., I doubt a lot of countries will want to invest. It will be like South Africa. After all, they don't have oil, for goodness' sakes.

No, but if you notice, except Norway, give me a reason that countries that have oil, are blessed,
here is a small list,
Iran
Iraq
Kurdistan
Libya
Nigeria
Indonesia
Colombia
Venezuela
most countries in Arabian peninsula

they have oil,, so what,
Deutschland does not has oil, but look at them,

 

[Angela]

No, but if you notice, except Norway, give me a reason that countries that have oil, are blessed,
here is a small list,
Iran
Iraq
Kurdistan
Libya
Nigeria
Indonesia
Colombia
Venezuela
most countries in Arabian peninsula

they have oil,, so what,
Deutschland does not has oil, but look at them,

I'm afraid I don't at all get your point. Or maybe you didn't get mine. My point was that since Poland doesn't have the oil reserves of a Saudi Arabia, the west doesn't have the motivation to ignore the denial of civil rights, religious rights, and on and on.

As for Germany, you don't know about its nice flat farmland? How about the coal of the Ruhr? Have they used it all up? It's more than Italy and Greece have, that's for sure. Regardless, as I said, that has nothing to do with the point I was making...

 

[bicicleur 2]

Definitely conservative/catholics are fighting back against modern changes. At the moment pendulum has swung their way.

it

I don't know about Poland, but in Europe what happens is the consequence of decades of political correct ideology and acting without proper thinking and planning.
People see it does not work, on the contrary and now they try something else without proper thinking and planning.
Same in the US.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I'm afraid I don't at all get your point. Or maybe you didn't get mine. My point was that since Poland doesn't have the oil reserves of a Saudi Arabia, the west doesn't have the motivation to ignore the denial of civil rights, religious rights, and on and on.

As for Germany, you don't know about its nice flat farmland? How about the coal of the Ruhr? Have they used it all up? It's more than Italy and Greece have, that's for sure. Regardless, as I said, that has nothing to do with the point I was making...

Germany has not become rich by natural resoruces or farming.
They make solid and affordable cars that are apreciated by the broad public, amongst other things.
And they have disciplined labour that doesn't go on strike every year.
They have stable governments and corruption is low.

 

[gyms]

“It was as if the world was set up according to a Marxist model which has to automatically develop in one direction only—a new mixture of cultures and races, a world made up of cyclists and vegetarians, who only use renewable energy and fight all forms of religion,” he told the shocked Bild interviewer.

http://newobserveronline.com/polish-govt-to-crush-marxists-in-state-media/

 

[Angela]

Well, now I know the source of some of the opinions expressed on this Board.

This is far beyond any reaction to political correctness or any return to conservative religious doctrines. Go back to your history books and to the speeches of the twenties and thirties, not only from Germany, but from Italy and Poland and Hungary. This is the return of fascism, a fascism which like Nazism incorporates racist doctrines where you actually strip people of a different race, religion, sex, and sexual orientation of their rights. Let's hope it stops there.

Those poor Jewish or part Jewish women who came out of the closet thinking it was safe should take their families and get out now.

You can't make this stuff up.

 

[Yetos]

Well, now I know the source of some of the opinions expressed on this Board.

This is far beyond any reaction to political correctness or any return to conservative religious doctrines. Go back to your history books and to the speeches of the twenties and thirties, not only from Germany, but from Italy and Poland and Hungary. This is the return of fascism, a fascism which like Nazism incorporates racist doctrines where you actually strip people of a different race, religion, sex, and sexual orientation of their rights. Let's hope it stops there.

Those poor Jewish or part Jewish women who came out of the closet thinking it was safe should take their families and get out now.

You can't make this stuff up.

you have a very big piece of truth here,
and that is what frightens me,
but as it seems 'socialists' in Europe are not different than neo-laissez faire.
and money vultures and bankers and corporations make BIG PARTY/FIESTAS by the sweat of working class, and take patriarchical houses with taxes and loans that not even reach to this class,
by using the state, with signature of stupid politician, which we voted

Europeans got sick from the political past and present after 1980's.
either socialistic parties. either neo-liberians, either conservatives,
they get poor and poor every day, with out even spend money,
they want to defend their style of life,

we are dying upon a needle which poison us, but also adore it,
we lack of jobs, we lack of work, but we are happy,

remember 'revolution Francais'
from revolution to anarchy to terrorism to empire and nationalism and again,
from the village to Versailles and then to Bonapart and again,
simply today we do not revolt, we vote.
and we will vote agaist them.

and for first time today I heard a US president speaking with another tongue about Berlin
than the typical inhibited wooden diplomatic tongue i was used too decades now
( ok I was surprised, but with that I don't declare he is the 'one')

 

[bicicleur 2]

Well, now I know the source of some of the opinions expressed on this Board.

This is far beyond any reaction to political correctness or any return to conservative religious doctrines. Go back to your history books and to the speeches of the twenties and thirties, not only from Germany, but from Italy and Poland and Hungary. This is the return of fascism, a fascism which like Nazism incorporates racist doctrines where you actually strip people of a different race, religion, sex, and sexual orientation of their rights. Let's hope it stops there.

Those poor Jewish or part Jewish women who came out of the closet thinking it was safe should take their families and get out now.

You can't make this stuff up.

what is the value of an article in a paper with 'Opponents call such actions ' , 'Opponents, however, see' , 'critics say' .. ?
should it not be their job to present some solid facts instead?

sorry, but this article looks like a free tribune for Ewa Galica to me

 

[Angela]

Twist and turn as you like, the laws are the laws, and they have been passed. Investigate for yourself, as I have...

 

[bicicleur 2]

First of all, let me tell you that I resent the Law and Order ideology.

But the article also suggests Trump will follow the same policies in the US. What do you think?
And creatoinism seems to be an important part of the Law and Order ideology, this is not a European phenomenon, it is invented and far more widespread in the US.

Law and Order ideology passed some stupid laws.
The Walloon socialists passed stupid laws and applied stupid policies for 4 decades.
I don't think law and order will last a decade in Poland. Unless the EU and Angela Merkel continue with their stupid policies.
It is time for some practical and pragmatic government.
The British got their Brexit.
The Italians made a predictable but stupid decision on the 4th of this month.

Democracy has to allow for some stupidity.
If you don't think so, you have to bring in the dictators.
But we are in need of a new charismatic, intelligent and pragmatic leadership who goes beyond the established politics and political correctness.
One who dares to question and redefine everything in view of the new challenges today and in the near future.
That person hasn't presented itself yet.
As long as that person doesn't appear, the door is open for all kinds of charlatans.
They are populating the parliaments and governments right now.

 

[Angela]

First of all, let me tell you that I resent the Law and Order ideology.

But the article also suggests Trump will follow the same policies in the US. What do you think?
And creatoinism seems to be an important part of the Law and Order ideology, this is not a European phenomenon, it is invented and far more widespread in the US.

Law and Order ideology passed some stupid laws.
The Walloon socialists passed stupid laws and applied stupid policies for 4 decades.
I don't think law and order will last a decade in Poland. Unless the EU and Angela Merkel continue with their stupid policies.
It is time for some practical and pragmatic government.
The British got their Brexit.
The Italians made a predictable but stupid decision on the 4th of this month.

Democracy has to allow for some stupidity.
If you don't think so, you have to bring in the dictators.
But we are in need of a new charismatic, intelligent and pragmatic leadership who goes beyond the established politics and political correctness.
One who dares to question and redefine everything in view of the new challenges today and in the near future.
That person hasn't presented itself yet.
As long as that person doesn't appear, the door is open for all kinds of charlatans.
They are populating the parliaments and governments right now.

I find almost nothing with which to disagree. I would only say that I don't believe this will only last a decade. Throughout eastern Europe, perhaps partly because Russia prevented contact with the west for so many decades, all the old ideologies and world views were bubbling away beneath the surface. Now they're openly avowed.

As to the Trump link, I think it's always a mistake to associate what happens in the U.S. too closely to developments in Europe. There are some similarities, yes, but only some.

For example, all of these movements in Europe just continue to be for give away socialist spending on steroids. That's the antithesis of what Trump is proposing. Do I furthermore think Trump would try to introduce these kind of "Law and Order" type statutes? Absolutely not. However, I'm still very much in the "jury is out" mode with Trump.

 

[bicicleur 2]

the future will show how long it lasts and what are the biggest mistakes Europe makes today

you can explain it in 2 ways

old ideologies bubling underneath the the Sovjet strata
or
not being exposed to the same political correct nonsense as happened in Western Europe for decades and now being confronted to that at once

it's probably a combination of both

anyway, I'm glad those ideologies gave some opposition to the Merkel stupidities of the last 2 years and made them build some fences otherwise Europe would have been totaly flooded by adventurers lured by human trafickers who promised them Europe would provide them whatever they desired

I find the hypocisy of Merkel and co to maintain 'wir schaffen dass' and in the mean time make a deal with Erdogan as resentful as the ideology of Law and Order itself

as for Trump, I agree with your attitude, let's wait and see
I merely mention what the author of the article, and many other oponents of Trump try to imply

there is a paralel between Trump and Europe though
both US and Europe are fed up with traditional politics and media

 

[LeBrok]

I find almost nothing with which to disagree. I would only say that I don't believe this will only last a decade. Throughout eastern Europe, perhaps partly because Russia prevented contact with the west for so many decades, all the old ideologies and world views were bubbling away beneath the surface. Now they're openly avowed.

As to the Trump link, I think it's always a mistake to associate what happens in the U.S. too closely to developments in Europe. There are some similarities, yes, but only some.

For example, all of these movements in Europe just continue to be for give away socialist spending on steroids. That's the antithesis of what Trump is proposing. Do I furthermore think Trump would try to introduce these kind of "Law and Order" type statutes? Absolutely not. However, I'm still very much in the "jury is out" mode with Trump.

Picture is clearer when we don't dwell too long on what socialist versus "capitalist" policies are, traditional right and left. It is much more understandable through natural conservative and liberal spectrum. You see, the overblown social services existed for decades in east european countries. People got used to them a lot. Conservatives (around the globe) in general tend to stick to what already exists, what they grew up in. In this case in Poland they grew up in environment rich in generous social services and entitlements. Of course financial benefiting from these services strengthens validity of old system. These people will vote for anyone who promises to keep and protect their social service, jobs, religion, stronger nation, pure race, and the rest of status quo. Not much different from what Trump is promising his army of hyper conservative folks. People want to protect what they have or used to have, the full protectionism of the jobs, tariffs on imports, whiteness of small towns and villages, christian/traditional values, etc. It is also not much different what Putin promises to the Russians, and he has a huge following. Protect russians and make Russia great again. Which being conservative side in Russia, includes social services network, lack of capitalist style production and lack of democracy.
From these protective and over emphasised greatness we can only expect the clash of the titans.
It is interesting that natural conservatives desire more state protection that natural liberals. Natural conservatives always feel endangered and feel a need to be protected.

 

[Yetos]

Picture is clearer when we don't dwell too long on what socialist versus "capitalist" policies are, traditional right and left. It is much more understandable through natural conservative and liberal spectrum. You see, the overblown social services existed for decades in east european countries. People got used to them a lot. Conservatives (around the globe) in general tend to stick to what already exists, what they grew up in. In this case in Poland they grew up in environment rich in generous social services and entitlements. Of course financial benefiting from these services strengthens validity of old system. These people will vote for anyone who promises to keep and protect their social service, jobs, religion, stronger nation, pure race, and the rest of status quo. Not much different from what Trump is promising his army of hyper conservative folks. People want to protect what they have or used to have, the full protectionism of the jobs, tariffs on imports, whiteness of small towns and villages, christian/traditional values, etc. It is also not much different what Putin promises to the Russians, and he has a huge following. Protect russians and make Russia great again. Which being conservative side in Russia, includes social services network, lack of capitalist style production and lack of democracy.
From these protective and over emphasised greatness we can only expect the clash of the titans.
It is interesting that natural conservatives desire more state protection that natural liberals. Natural conservatives always feel endangered and feel a need to be protected.

I tottally disagree, and I have the academic right to do so.

the main problem is what is the purpose of socialists, and they give
the purpose of communists, and what they gave,
the purpose of neo laissez faire and what they give,
the purpose of conservatives and they give,
etc etc

so lets see
communists gave a lot at the beginning, the first years, but they ended as a conservative system, a dictatorship party, unaible to evolve,
so the communists (at least Gorby in Russia) rejected their own system, but kept the positions, (they are smart, we are stupid and blind, we all see the obvious)

socialists, well, if I take example from my country, they build stock exchange !!! (the temple of capitals) and .. hmmm ...ahhh ... ok they surely did and something else but i can not remember,
but they also want the state protection and use taxes for 'give and take votes',

Caynes, well a more open economy. gives the less as social help, but state must be referee and over corporations organisations etc etc

conservatives,
lets see who were at 1900's and 1970's in Europe and who are today,
at 1900 can you give me a class that would be conservative except the land owners?
or the house owner at big cities?
I guess not,
but at 1970's it was the small merchants, the technicians, the scientists,
what ever we name today as middle class, either high either low,
Now at 2016 WHO IS CONCERVATIVE?
there is almost none middle class,
there is unemployment,
small merchants, technicians, etc etc are dying,
scientists are unemployed,
Thanks to what? Super market chains, black labour, low industry, import of cheap food etc etc,
SO CAN YOU TELL ME WHO WANTS TO CONSERVE THE TODAY??
except the bankers and the money vultures, and Putin
all who want are not middle class

Neo-liberians,
who are they? search m't Pelerin club and others,
what they want? I never figure out, can you tell me,
but I observe that their target is the last deposits of money that a family has,
and to occupy and destroy any indipentent way of life,
they want others to pay taxes, and not them cause they invest as they say, (what invests? in China)
they want to promoted and founded by rich states, but they transfer the capital and industry elsewhere,
( is NIKE an American shoe corporation?)
they use cheap chemicals to produce food, and they do not care, neither even for the enviromental pollution
(coca-cola, taxated and founded by switzerlard, produced in Bulgaria, consumed in Greece!!!!)
They hate the STATE. cause good laws is their enemy,
they want to bring immigrants from upside down planet, to work black labour,
but their health care and food will be paid by the taxes of unemployed citizens,
they present you the rose mucilage with carageenan as meat,


so since state, does allow us to protect our shelves,
neither allows guns,
the only way left is use our last weapon, the vote,
as the state allows strange chemicals in food, for the profit of some,
more and more people vote against and against etc etc,
call them enviromental lovers, call them nationalists, call them utopian left,
and now that GS runs both side of Atlantic,
we will even destroy our shelves so not allow a new global dictatorship.

 

[LeBrok]

I tottally disagree, and I have the academic right to do so.

the main problem is what is the purpose of socialists, and they give
the purpose of communists, and what they gave,
the purpose of neo laissez faire and what they give,
the purpose of conservatives and they give,
etc etc

so lets see
communists gave a lot at the beginning, the first years, but they ended as a conservative system, a dictatorship party, unaible to evolve,
so the communists (at least Gorby in Russia) rejected their own system, but kept the positions, (they are smart, we are stupid and blind, we all see the obvious)

socialists, well, if I take example from my country, they build stock exchange !!! (the temple of capitals) and .. hmmm ...ahhh ... ok they surely did and something else but i can not remember,
but they also want the state protection and use taxes for 'give and take votes',

Caynes, well a more open economy. gives the less as social help, but state must be referee and over corporations organisations etc etc

conservatives,
lets see who were at 1900's and 1970's in Europe and who are today,
at 1900 can you give me a class that would be conservative except the land owners?
or the house owner at big cities?
I guess not,
but at 1970's it was the small merchants, the technicians, the scientists,
what ever we name today as middle class, either high either low,
Now at 2016 WHO IS CONCERVATIVE?
there is almost none middle class,
there is unemployment,
small merchants, technicians, etc etc are dying,
scientists are unemployed,
Thanks to what? Super market chains, black labour, low industry, import of cheap food etc etc,
SO CAN YOU TELL ME WHO WANTS TO CONSERVE THE TODAY??
except the bankers and the money vultures, and Putin
all who want are not middle class

Neo-liberians,
who are they? search m't Pelerin club and others,
what they want? I never figure out, can you tell me,
but I observe that their target is the last deposits of money that a family has,
and to occupy and destroy any indipentent way of life,
they want others to pay taxes, and not them cause they invest as they say, (what invests? in China)
they want to promoted and founded by rich states, but they transfer the capital and industry elsewhere,
( is NIKE an American shoe corporation?)
they use cheap chemicals to produce food, and they do not care, neither even for the enviromental pollution
(coca-cola, taxated and founded by switzerlard, produced in Bulgaria, consumed in Greece!!!!)
They hate the STATE. cause good laws is their enemy,
they want to bring immigrants from upside down planet, to work black labour,
but their health care and food will be paid by the taxes of unemployed citizens,
they present you the rose mucilage with carageenan as meat,


so since state, does allow us to protect our shelves,
neither allows guns,
the only way left is use our last weapon, the vote,
as the state allows strange chemicals in food, for the profit of some,
more and more people vote against and against etc etc,
call them enviromental lovers, call them nationalists, call them utopian left,
and now that GS runs both side of Atlantic,
we will even destroy our shelves so not allow a new global dictatorship.

Perhaps Communist party in Greece is the conservative party?