What is the main haplogroup of Cucuteni-Trypillian (Tripolye) culture?

[Greying Wanderer]

Then, after thousands of years of cohabitation the farmers only picked up 25% of their ancestry from the h-g groups who were in Europe when they arrived. Yes?

I think that's the general pattern. The farmers spread everywhere they could farm and the HGs retreated to wherever was left with very little mixing until the borders were fixed.

What mixing there was after that point possibly being linked to how pastoral an area was i.e. more HG recruits in areas best suited to herding and less in areas best suited to crops.

I think that bit seems clear.

The question is if there was a resurgence in HG dna after this how it came about.

1. As above maybe the farmers recruited more HGs from the swamps/mountains to herd for them - perhaps as part of a climate related switch away from crops.

2. Some HGs in the periphery regions adapting e.g. the Ertobolle culture, leading to HGs becoming hybrid HG-farmers and a population resurgence that way.

3. A variation on option (1) where there is also no direct HG resurgence but a farmer population in a farmer/HG border region with a higher percentage of HG than usual having a population expansion for some reason.

or a bit of all three or something else.

 

[MOESAN]

I'm sorry, I still think you're not seeing the subtlety of the distinctions. We do not yet have any evidence, even in the Middle and Late Neolithic, of bands of hunter gatherers looking at the neighboring farmers and deciding, wow, that looks like a great idea, and adopting farming as a community. It is always in the context of their being absorbed into a farming community, and with some degree of genetic admixture, at least so far.

I never said that h-g groups were incapable of farming. If nothing else, some of them could have been enslaved and forced to farm, which may have been the case with KOI, although if we look at the example of the American West, Australia, and the San, that very rarely works. They usually pine away or sicken or run away.

When the climate changed and they had absolutely no other option other than starvation, some of them might also have gone to farming communities and been absorbed. That happened in the American West as well.

Now, as I said, that may have changed under the Indo-Europeans, because the pastoralist life style may have been a better fit for them.

Ed. The proof is that after thousands of years, the MN and LN farmers were still 75% EEF, and it may indeed be that EEF = ENF.

I rather agree, spite based upon little. By instance Blatterhöhle fishers-gatherers compared to same place agricultors OF THE SAME TIME show only 7/7 mtU5 (U5b for the deppest studied) when peasants show a mix of 5/8 H + 2/8 U5b + 1J (3H5, 1H1, 1H11, so not occidental mt-H as a whole).
It's true females/males imput in mixtures are not always balanced but it's a beginning...

 

[Hauteville]

I2a could be a good option.

 

[F117stealth]

From where do you think we got in that region (present times) this high concentration of I2a2?

 

[LeBrok]

Here are first results from Cucuteni-Trypillia:
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/05/09/135616.full.pdf
[TABLE="width: 1212"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 88, align: right"]5736[/TD]
[TD="width: 88"]3931-3640 calBCE [3705-3640 calBCE (4890±30 BP, Beta-432808); 3931-3670 calBCE (4985±30 BP, OxA-25991)][/TD]
[TD="width: 156"]Trypillia[/TD]
[TD="width: 88"]Trypillia[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252, width: 88"]..[/TD]
[TD="width: 88"]Verteba Cave[/TD]
[TD="width: 88"]..[/TD]
[TD="width: 88"]Ukraine[/TD]
[TD="width: 88, align: right"]48.47[/TD]
[TD="width: 88, align: right"]25.53[/TD]
[TD="width: 88"]M[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251, width: 88"]H5a[/TD]
[TD="width: 88"]G2a2b2a[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]5735[/TD]
[TD]3911-3659 calBCE (4976±33 BP, OxA-26203)[/TD]
[TD]Trypillia[/TD]
[TD]Trypillia[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252"]..[/TD]
[TD]Verteba Cave[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[TD]Ukraine[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]48.47[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.53[/TD]
[TD]M[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251"]T2b[/TD]
[TD]G2a2b2a[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]5647[/TD]
[TD]3758-3636 calBCE (4888±32 BP, OxA-26204)[/TD]
[TD]Trypillia[/TD]
[TD]Trypillia[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252"]..[/TD]
[TD]Verteba Cave[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[TD]Ukraine[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]48.47[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.53[/TD]
[TD]M[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251"]HV[/TD]
[TD]G2a[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]5750[/TD]
[TD]4000-3600 BCE[/TD]
[TD]Trypillia[/TD]
[TD]Trypillia[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252"]..[/TD]
[TD]Verteba Cave[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[TD]Ukraine[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]48.47[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.53[/TD]
[TD]M[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251"]U8b1b[/TD]
[TD]E[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]5228[/TD]
[TD]3619-2936 calBCE (4550±90 BP, Ki-13388)[/TD]
[TD]Trypillia_outlier[/TD]
[TD]Trypillia_outlier[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252"]..[/TD]
[TD]Verteba Cave[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[TD]Ukraine[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]48.47[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.53[/TD]
[TD]M[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251"]H1b[/TD]
[TD]G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a1[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Our communal and main guess wasn't right so far. Second guess was right. Full of G2a, and even one E. All typical farmers from Near East. Not even one R1b or R1a. However it is just from one location of vast territory, a cave and small sample base.

 

[Angela]

Here are first results from Cucuteni-Trypillia

[TABLE="width: 1212"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 88, align: right"]5736[/TD]
[TD="width: 88"]3931-3640 calBCE [3705-3640 calBCE (4890±30 BP, Beta-432808); 3931-3670 calBCE (4985±30 BP, OxA-25991)][/TD]
[TD="width: 156"]Trypillia[/TD]
[TD="width: 88"]Trypillia[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252, width: 88"]..[/TD]
[TD="width: 88"]Verteba Cave[/TD]
[TD="width: 88"]..[/TD]
[TD="width: 88"]Ukraine[/TD]
[TD="width: 88, align: right"]48.47[/TD]
[TD="width: 88, align: right"]25.53[/TD]
[TD="width: 88"]M[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251, width: 88"]H5a[/TD]
[TD="width: 88"]G2a2b2a[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]5735[/TD]
[TD]3911-3659 calBCE (4976±33 BP, OxA-26203)[/TD]
[TD]Trypillia[/TD]
[TD]Trypillia[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252"]..[/TD]
[TD]Verteba Cave[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[TD]Ukraine[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]48.47[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.53[/TD]
[TD]M[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251"]T2b[/TD]
[TD]G2a2b2a[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]5647[/TD]
[TD]3758-3636 calBCE (4888±32 BP, OxA-26204)[/TD]
[TD]Trypillia[/TD]
[TD]Trypillia[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252"]..[/TD]
[TD]Verteba Cave[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[TD]Ukraine[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]48.47[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.53[/TD]
[TD]M[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251"]HV[/TD]
[TD]G2a[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]5750[/TD]
[TD]4000-3600 BCE[/TD]
[TD]Trypillia[/TD]
[TD]Trypillia[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252"]..[/TD]
[TD]Verteba Cave[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[TD]Ukraine[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]48.47[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.53[/TD]
[TD]M[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251"]U8b1b[/TD]
[TD]E[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]5228[/TD]
[TD]3619-2936 calBCE (4550±90 BP, Ki-13388)[/TD]
[TD]Trypillia_outlier[/TD]
[TD]Trypillia_outlier[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252"]..[/TD]
[TD]Verteba Cave[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[TD]Ukraine[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]48.47[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.53[/TD]
[TD]M[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251"]H1b[/TD]
[TD]G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a1[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Our communal and main guess wasn't right so far. Second guess was right. Full of G2a, and even one E. All typical farmers from Near East. Not even one R1b or R1a. However it is just from one location of vast territory, a cave and small sample base.

The communal prediction for Globular was also incorrect, wasn't it? Vucedol too.

 

[LeBrok]

The communal prediction for Globular was also incorrect, wasn't it? Vucedol too.

I don't remember this one. The second one I started was about Maykop, and jury is still in.

Anyway, it is so weird that contemporary neighboring culture of also farmers is exclusively I2a! Either the small sample bias is very strong here, or these two cultures were strongly conservative, ethno-patriotic. Considering the fact that Ukrainian samples of Cucuteni and Globular lived close by, though few hundred years apart.

There is of course possible population collapse and bottlenecking effect for farmers of Late Neolithic to explain that.


Here is Globular Amphora:
[TABLE="width: 1124"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 88"]2899-2706 calBCE[/TD]
[TD="width: 156"]Globular_Amphora_Ukraine[/TD]
[TD="width: 88"]Globular_Amphora[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252, width: 88"]..[/TD]
[TD="width: 88"]Ilyatka[/TD]
[TD="width: 88"]..[/TD]
[TD="width: 88"]Ukraine[/TD]
[TD="width: 88, align: right"]49.56[/TD]
[TD="width: 88, align: right"]27.69[/TD]
[TD="width: 88"]M[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251, width: 88"]J1c3[/TD]
[TD="width: 88"]I2a2a1b[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2890-2694 calBCE[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora_Ukraine[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252"]..[/TD]
[TD]Ilyatka[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[TD]Ukraine[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]49.56[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27.69[/TD]
[TD]M[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251"]T2b[/TD]
[TD]I2a2a1b2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2900-2709 calBCE[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora_Ukraine[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252"]..[/TD]
[TD]Ilyatka[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[TD]Ukraine[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]49.56[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27.69[/TD]
[TD]F[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251"]J1c[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2870-2575 calBCE (4120±30 BP, Beta-430712)[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora_Poland[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252"]..[/TD]
[TD]Kierzkowo[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[TD]Poland[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]52.85[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17.88[/TD]
[TD]M[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251"]U5b2b1[/TD]
[TD]I2a2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3335-3020 calBCE (4460±30 BP, Beta-430713)[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora_Poland[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252"]..[/TD]
[TD]Kierzkowo[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[TD]Poland[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]52.85[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17.88[/TD]
[TD]M[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251"]W5[/TD]
[TD]I2a2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3100-2900 BCE (mother to directly dated I2407: 3095-2915 calBCE (4390±30 BP, Beta-430714)[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora_Poland[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252"]..[/TD]
[TD]Kierzkowo[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[TD]Poland[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]52.85[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17.88[/TD]
[TD]F[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251"]H28[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3400-2800 BCE[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora_Poland[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252"]..[/TD]
[TD]Kierzkowo[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[TD]Poland[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]52.85[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17.88[/TD]
[TD]F[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251"]U5b1d1[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3100-2900 BCE (father to directly dated I2407: 3095-2915 calBCE (4390±30 BP, Beta-430714)[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora_Poland[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252"]..[/TD]
[TD]Kierzkowo[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[TD]Poland[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]52.85[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17.88[/TD]
[TD]M[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251"]H1b[/TD]
[TD]I2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3400-2800 BCE[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora_Poland[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252"]..[/TD]
[TD]Kierzkowo[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[TD]Poland[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]52.85[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17.88[/TD]
[TD]M[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251"]K1b1a1[/TD]
[TD]I2a2a1b[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Angela]

I don't remember this one. The second one I started was about Maykop, and jury is still in.

Anyway, it is so weird that contemporary neighboring culture of also farmers is exclusively I2a! Either the small sample bias is very strong here, or these two cultures were strongly conservative, ethno-patriotic. Considering the fact that Ukrainian samples of Cucuteni and Globular lived close by, though few hundred years apart.

There is of course possible population collapse and bottlenecking effect for farmers of Late Neolithic to explain that.


Here is Globular Amphora:
[TABLE="width: 1124"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 88"]2899-2706 calBCE[/TD]
[TD="width: 156"]Globular_Amphora_Ukraine[/TD]
[TD="width: 88"]Globular_Amphora[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252, width: 88"]..[/TD]
[TD="width: 88"]Ilyatka[/TD]
[TD="width: 88"]..[/TD]
[TD="width: 88"]Ukraine[/TD]
[TD="width: 88, align: right"]49.56[/TD]
[TD="width: 88, align: right"]27.69[/TD]
[TD="width: 88"]M[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251, width: 88"]J1c3[/TD]
[TD="width: 88"]I2a2a1b[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2890-2694 calBCE[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora_Ukraine[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252"]..[/TD]
[TD]Ilyatka[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[TD]Ukraine[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]49.56[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27.69[/TD]
[TD]M[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251"]T2b[/TD]
[TD]I2a2a1b2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2900-2709 calBCE[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora_Ukraine[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252"]..[/TD]
[TD]Ilyatka[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[TD]Ukraine[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]49.56[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27.69[/TD]
[TD]F[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251"]J1c[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2870-2575 calBCE (4120±30 BP, Beta-430712)[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora_Poland[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252"]..[/TD]
[TD]Kierzkowo[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[TD]Poland[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]52.85[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17.88[/TD]
[TD]M[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251"]U5b2b1[/TD]
[TD]I2a2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3335-3020 calBCE (4460±30 BP, Beta-430713)[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora_Poland[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252"]..[/TD]
[TD]Kierzkowo[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[TD]Poland[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]52.85[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17.88[/TD]
[TD]M[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251"]W5[/TD]
[TD]I2a2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3100-2900 BCE (mother to directly dated I2407: 3095-2915 calBCE (4390±30 BP, Beta-430714)[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora_Poland[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252"]..[/TD]
[TD]Kierzkowo[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[TD]Poland[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]52.85[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17.88[/TD]
[TD]F[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251"]H28[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3400-2800 BCE[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora_Poland[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252"]..[/TD]
[TD]Kierzkowo[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[TD]Poland[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]52.85[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17.88[/TD]
[TD]F[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251"]U5b1d1[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3100-2900 BCE (father to directly dated I2407: 3095-2915 calBCE (4390±30 BP, Beta-430714)[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora_Poland[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252"]..[/TD]
[TD]Kierzkowo[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[TD]Poland[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]52.85[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17.88[/TD]
[TD]M[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251"]H1b[/TD]
[TD]I2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3400-2800 BCE[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora_Poland[/TD]
[TD]Globular_Amphora[/TD]
[TD="class: xl252"]..[/TD]
[TD]Kierzkowo[/TD]
[TD]..[/TD]
[TD]Poland[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]52.85[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17.88[/TD]
[TD]M[/TD]
[TD="class: xl251"]K1b1a1[/TD]
[TD]I2a2a1b[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I just remember a lot of talk about R1 and how they were heavily steppe, whereas they're like Iberian Neolithic, about 25% WHG picked up in the Middle Neolithic.

Maybe that's the difference between the two cultures: Globular Amphora was "fathered" by a group that included an absorbed hunter- gatherer male and then there were bottlenecks.

 

[Maciamo]

What's interesting is that the Trypillian genomes tested are not pure EEF, but have substantial levels of WHG, EHG and Steppe (about 25% in total), and all samples possess all three admixtures in addition to EEF. The levels are quite similar to those of the Bronze Age Balkans. One Trypillian individual (I1927) has over 20% of Steppe admixture, and only just above 50% of EEF.

The Trypillian genomes greatly contrasts with Globular Amphora, which have almost only WHG (20-25%) and EEF (75-80%).

We only have a few sample from each culture, and it turned out that all the Trypillian Y-DNA was EEF (G2a and E1b1b) ad all the Globular Amphora Y-DNA was WHG (I2), but that is surely just a coincidence. The autosomal DNA shows that Trypillian people must have possessed also I2, R1a and R1b lineages. You just can't draw conclusions on Y-DNA frequencies based on five samples. It's actually far safer to do so based on autosomal DNA.

Also noteworthy, Trypillian genomes had more WHG than EHG or Steppe, while Chalcolthic Balkans genomes had substantial EHG but hardly any WHG or Steppe (except for I2181 and ANI163, who were recent Steppe invaders. Unfortunately ANI163's Y-DNA and mtDNA aren't mentioned, but I2181 belongs to Y-haplogroup R, although the coverage was too low to determine anything deeper).

 

[LeBrok]

I'm yet to read this paper, so I was only wondering if these G2a farmers had Yamnaya mix, and they did have. Thanks for finding it out Maciamo.
In this case, it is just a matter of time finding Steppe and WHG haplogroups in North Cucuteni. BA Balkans is quite similar for first 7 samples to Cucuteni but 4 last ones are way richer in steppe. I wonder if they come from different locations.
I'll try to find out.

 

[Angela]

The two Admixture runs are very strange for some of the Balkan groups studied, depending on the k. It has to be investigated more thoroughly, especially when the samples are released. For some of them is it "steppe" or just CHG like ancestry added to local hg? For others is it just additonal WHG and/or EHG?

For C/T, I think some of these are up in the forest steppe.

 

[LeBrok]

The two Admixture runs are very strange for some of the Balkan groups studied, depending on the k. It has to be investigated more thoroughly, especially when the samples are released. For some of them is it "steppe" or just CHG like ancestry added to local hg? For others is it just additonal WHG and/or EHG?

For C/T, I think some of these are up in the forest steppe.

It got to be the way they defined EHG here. Before that we didn't hear about EHG in Balkans. Perhaps we have enough ancient samples for scientists to coin common admixtures to measure samples. I don't mind if there is EHG in balkan hunter gatherers, I just don't want to change my mind set with every paper.

 

[LeBrok]

I'm yet to read this paper, so I was only wondering if these G2a farmers had Yamnaya mix, and they did have. Thanks for finding it out Maciamo.
In this case, it is just a matter of time finding Steppe and WHG haplogroups in North Cucuteni. BA Balkans is quite similar for first 7 samples to Cucuteni but 4 last ones are way richer in steppe. I wonder if they come from different locations.
I'll try to find out.

Ok, the samples of BA Balkans which are more like Cucuteni are from Early BA from Bulgaria. The samples with more steppe are from Late Neolithic from Croatia.

 

[Maciamo]

Ok, the samples of BA Balkans which are more like Cucuteni are from Early BA from Bulgaria. The samples with more steppe are from Late Neolithic from Croatia.

This makes complete sense. Old Neolithic/Chalcolithic cultures like Cucuteni-Trypillian and Varna in the eastern Carpathians and Balkans were densely populated and acted as bulwark against Steppe invasions. Therefore Steppe admixture levels in those regions are lower. EHG, WHG and Steppe admixtures in those regions probably progressed slowly over time by intermarriages with neighbouring HG and Steppe pastoralist populations.

The samples from Croatia could be seen as part of the large-scale migration from the Pontic Steppe to the Hungarian Plain, which was an ideal environment for cattle pastoralists and horse riders. I have explained in my R1b history, in agreement with what David Anthony wrote, that the early Steppe incursions into the Balkans were raiding and pillaging expeditions that caused the progressive decline of Old Europe, but didn't leave any major Steppe settlements. Steppe invaders only took over politically and set themselves up as the new rulers in local communities, so that Steppe lineages would principally show up in elite burials like in Varna.

The real Steppe migrations with their families, carts and herds followed the Danube until Hungary and northeast Croatia, then moved into Germany, Bohemia and western Poland to found the Unetice culture. Some of those who arrived early eventually continued west beyond Germany, reaching France and Britain by 2300 BCE, when Unetice started around Germany.

Here is one relevant passage from my R1b page.

"The expansion of R1b people into Old Europe was slower, but proved inevitable. In 2800 BCE, by the time the Corded Ware had already reached Scandinavia, the Bronze Age R1b cultures had barely moved into the Pannonian Steppe. They established major settlements in the Great Hungarian Plain, the most similar habitat to their ancestral Pontic Steppes. Around 2500 BCE, the western branch of Indo-European R1b were poised for their next major expansion into modern Germany and Western Europe."


However the three Bronze Age Croatian individuals tested date from 1700 to 900 BCE, which is long after the Yamna-descended tribes passed through the Hungarian plain. Nevertheless some seem to have made their way south until southern Croatia (Veliki Vanik) and may have been the long lost tribe of the Illyrians. This is the first evidence we have of Indo-European lineages in Illyria prior to the Slavic migrations that replaced most of the male lineages by I2a-Din and R1a lineages. Unfortunately, only one of the three BA Croatian samples was male, so there is only one Y-DNA sample and it belongs to J2b2a-L283. It's possible that a later Steppe migration that the one that founded Unetice brought J2b2a to the Dinaric Alps. Anyway these three individuals were undeniably Steppe-admixed and the J2b guy possessed a typical Steppe mtDNA (I1a1) also found in Unetice.


Note that the sample with the highest Steppe admixture in the Balkans (I2163) is from Middle-Late Bronze Age Bulgaria (c. 1700 BCE) and belongs to R1a-S224. It is the only MLBA individual tested and he is contemporary to the Srubna culture, where he surely originated. This confirms that that Srubna was a predominantly R1a culture, as opposed to the earlier R1b-dominant Yamna culture and probably also Catacomb culture.


NB: It's just a detail, but the samples tested are from the Trypillian culture, not Cucuteni. Although they formed the same culture, Cucuteni normally refers to the part in NE Romania and Moldova, while Tripolye/Trypillia is the Ukrainian part.

 

[Alan]

It got to be the way they defined EHG here. Before that we didn't hear about EHG in Balkans. Perhaps we have enough ancient samples for scientists to coin common admixtures to measure samples. I don't mind if there is EHG in balkan hunter gatherers, I just don't want to change my mind set with every paper.

I actually like these turnovers

 

[Angela]

Maciamo, the elite burial in Varna is ydna CT. The R1b boy is buried with no grave goods.

 

[Angela]

It got to be the way they defined EHG here. Before that we didn't hear about EHG in Balkans. Perhaps we have enough ancient samples for scientists to coin common admixtures to measure samples. I don't mind if there is EHG in balkan hunter gatherers, I just don't want to change my mind set with every paper.

The WHG and EHG seem to have been in different niches, but then moved around, and at contact points there was some blending. The relative percentages varied over time.

In the Ukraine, for example, there was a change from the Mesolithic to the Neolithic:
"However, our larger sample shows the opposite – specifically that ANE ancestry decreases and WHG ancestry increases – as shown by the statistics D(Mbuti, X, Ukraine_Mesolithic, 218 Ukraine_Neolithic), which is Z=-4.9 when X is the Mal’ta 1 individual and Z=9.1 for 219 X=WHG (Supplementary Data Table 2)."

 

[Maciamo]

Maciamo, the elite burial in Varna is ydna CT. The R1b boy is buried with no grave goods.

I wasn't referring to Chalcolithic Bulgaria. Those samples are too old (c. 4500 BCE for the R1b and c. 4350 BCE for the CT) to have anything to do with Steppe invasions. That R1b is an old Mesolithic L754 (two mutations prior to P297 and three before M269) related to Iron Gates or Dnieper Donets, not to Yamna.

 

[LeBrok]

This makes complete sense. Old Neolithic/Chalcolithic cultures like Cucuteni-Trypillian and Varna in the eastern Carpathians and Balkans were densely populated and acted as bulwark against Steppe invasions. Therefore Steppe admixture levels in those regions are lower. EHG, WHG and Steppe admixtures in those regions probably progressed slowly over time by intermarriages with neighbouring HG and Steppe pastoralist populations.

The samples from Croatia could be seen as part of the large-scale migration from the Pontic Steppe to the Hungarian Plain, which was an ideal environment for cattle pastoralists and horse riders. I have explained in my R1b history, in agreement with what David Anthony wrote, that the early Steppe incursions into the Balkans were raiding and pillaging expeditions that caused the progressive decline of Old Europe, but didn't leave any major Steppe settlements. Steppe invaders only took over politically and set themselves up as the new rulers in local communities, so that Steppe lineages would principally show up in elite burials like in Varna.

I think, the first BA population of Bulgaria, in big numbers, were the ones of Cucuteni mix pushed south and west by big steppe migration.

However the three Bronze Age Croatian individuals tested date from 1700 to 900 BCE, which is long after the Yamna-descended tribes passed through the Hungarian plain. Nevertheless some seem to have made their way south until southern Croatia (Veliki Vanik) and may have been the long lost tribe of the Illyrians. This is the first evidence we have of Indo-European lineages in Illyria prior to the Slavic migrations that replaced most of the male lineages by I2a-Din and R1a lineages. Unfortunately, only one of the three BA Croatian samples was male, so there is only one Y-DNA sample and it belongs to J2b2a-L283. It's possible that a later Steppe migration that the one that founded Unetice brought J2b2a to the Dinaric Alps. Anyway these three individuals were undeniably Steppe-admixed and the J2b guy possessed a typical Steppe mtDNA (I1a1) also found in Unetice.

This is interesting. Is it possible that these guys started migration in Central/North Europe and not in the steppe? From Tumulus culture and alike. Most of the movement could have been right after BA collapse around 1,200.
Illyrians did come to my mind.

Note that the sample with the highest Steppe admixture in the Balkans (I2163) is from Middle-Late Bronze Age Bulgaria (c. 1700 BCE) and belongs to R1a-S224. It is the only MLBA individual tested and he is contemporary to the Srubna culture, where he surely originated. This confirms that that Srubna was a predominantly R1a culture, as opposed to the earlier R1b-dominant Yamna culture and probably also Catacomb culture.

Looks more Thracians in this case, or similar migration, this time more from NE Europe. Though I think Thracians most likely happened after BA collapse.


[/QUOTE]NB: It's just a detail, but the samples tested are from the Trypillian culture, not Cucuteni. Although they formed the same culture, Cucuteni normally refers to the part in NE Romania and Moldova, while Tripolye/Trypillia is the Ukrainian part.[/QUOTE]That's how I in brief referred to the whole culture. Obviously Trypillia part had bigger contact with the steppe than southern Cucuteni.

 

[LeBrok]

I actually like these turnovers

We need more of standardize measure units in population genetics, less relativity. Great for people who don't have time to reread and relearn, like me.