I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

[Fustan]

Actually, there's quite a bit of R1b-L23 in Italy, although the cline is south/north, with more in the south than the north. There's a lot of it among Calabrians, for example, but whether some went from Italy to the Balkans as well as perhaps earlier having come from the Balkans to Italy, no one knows.

Obviously, we don't know anything yet about the y dna lineages carried by any of the ancient peoples of Italy because we don't have any published ancient dna yet.

Apulians seem to have some J2b2 that belongs to the PH1751 clade as well which is interesting. Messapians who were Indo-Europeans or Illyrians have been thought to have settled there in antiquity.

I believe there is certainly some ancient Balkan input in ancient Italy.

 

[Angela]

As you can see, although not precisely the same:

@Fustan,

Yes, that's true about J2b, although it's not just in Puglia.

 

[Fatherland]

Albanians are not tallest in balkans lol and this not described in history. But this website is useful tool for me and dont want banned so I will follow Angela instruction and not discuss height issues in this specific thread.

You are like a broken record.

 

[Kingslav]

Google Albanian haplogroups there is valid charts of all haplogroups from all regions Albania.

 

[zanipolo]

Google Albanian haplogroups there is valid charts of all haplogroups from all regions Albania.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

 

[Nik]

Woah, so many posts in 1 day over nothing.

Anyway, I did some research on the Atlantic admixture and since even Otzi had 25% of it, it wouldnt be unreasonable to assume that people from the same but more Southern mountain ranges (Dinaric Alps) wouldn't have it in similar levels. That said, Fatherland can be right in assuming that it's ancient.

On the other hand, I noticed that the North-Western admixture is the same for Albanians, South Slavs, and Romanians, and it actually increases in Northern Bosnia and Croatia.

That said, it doesn't seem to me as a recent North-Western input in Albanians. At best we can go on and speculate about Catalans and even that wouldnt make sense why its specifically higher in Ghegs, despite the lack of North Iberian haplogroups in general.

With regards to I2a-Din, I've mentioned before that Dacians and were recorded to have been pushed South-Westwards beyond the Danube and even resettled there. Then the Carpi and other Free Dacians made their incursions there, followed by additional waves of Goths. On top of that, Northern Illyria went also through demographic changes with many of its strongest tribes being utterly destroyed and resettled in Dacia after The Great Illyrian Revolt, as if those mountain ranges weren't already sparsely populated enough for a small intrusion of I2a-Din folks to make a difference.

Then the Slavs came and more and more people were pushed further South or isolated in the mountains just like the I2a-Din. And I insist on the fact that the I2a-Din majority area is historically known as heavily populated by Vlachs who were moved further West by the Ottomans and settled in Herzegovina, Bosnia, Dalmatia, Lika, Northern Montenegro, etc. I'll have to agree with the Slavic members that with the facts I have, I consider this haplogroup to be North-Eastern Balkan and not North-Eastern European.

 

[Garrick]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

You gave real results haplogroups covering wider areas from Caucasus, to North Africa.

It is not dispute, R-Z2108* found in Caucasus, R-Z2108 developed during the time and a lot of clades emerged.

It is important for analyze, for different disciplines, genetic genealogy, archeology, linguistics etc. but this is not the thread.

 

[Garrick]

Woah, so many posts in 1 day over nothing.

Anyway, I did some research on the Atlantic admixture and since even Otzi had 25% of it, it wouldnt be unreasonable to assume that people from the same but more Southern mountain ranges (Dinaric Alps) wouldn't have it in similar levels. That said, Fatherland can be right in assuming that it's ancient.

On the other hand, I noticed that the North-Western admixture is the same for Albanians, South Slavs, and Romanians, and it actually increases in Northern Bosnia and Croatia.

That said, it doesn't seem to me as a recent North-Western input in Albanians. At best we can go on and speculate about Catalans and even that wouldnt make sense why its specifically higher in Ghegs, despite the lack of North Iberian haplogroups in general.

With regards to I2a-Din, I've mentioned before that Dacians and were recorded to have been pushed South-Westwards beyond the Danube and even resettled there. Then the Carpi and other Free Dacians made their incursions there, followed by additional waves of Goths. On top of that, Northern Illyria went also through demographic changes with many of its strongest tribes being utterly destroyed and resettled in Dacia after The Great Illyrian Revolt, as if those mountain ranges weren't already sparsely populated enough for a small intrusion of I2a-Din folks to make a difference.

Then the Slavs came and more and more people were pushed further South or isolated in the mountains just like the I2a-Din. And I insist on the fact that the I2a-Din majority area is historically known as heavily populated by Vlachs who were moved further West by the Ottomans and settled in Herzegovina, Bosnia, Dalmatia, Lika, Northern Montenegro, etc. I'll have to agree with the Slavic members that with the facts I have, I consider this haplogroup to be North-Eastern Balkan and not North-Eastern European.

I-PH908 probably emerged in the Balkan in Thracian or Illyrian land about 150 AD.

And we demonstrated likely moving I-CTS10228 toward south to the Balkan in the time approximately first century of the new era.

We can see YFull.com: I-PH908* found in Serbia, Macedonia, Balkan Turkey plus Sardinia and Baden Wurttemberg.

In Family Tree DNA almost all PH908 are in Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia plus Montenegro, Macedonia, Slovenia, and a few in other states, probably emigrated (no one is in Poland, Ukraine, Belarus... nor in any Eastern and Northern Slavic country).

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/dinaric_alps_dna/default.aspx?section=yresults

 

[Trojet]

I-PH908 probably emerged in the Balkan in Thracian or Illyrian land about 150 AD.

And we demonstrated likely moving I-CTS10228 toward south to the Balkan in the time approximately first century of the new era.

We can see YFull.com: I-PH908* found in Serbia, Macedonia, Balkan Turkey plus Sardinia and Baden Wurttemberg.

In Family Tree DNA almost all PH908 are in Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia plus Montenegro, Macedonia, Slovenia, and a few in other states, probably emigrated (no one is in Poland, Ukraine, Belarus... nor in any Eastern and Northern Slavic country).

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/dinaric_alps_dna/default.aspx?section=yresults

By far this is the biggest lie you have told us, and you know it.

Here is the facts: I invite everyone to look at the following picture taken from FamilyTreeDNA I2a Project and see that this guy is straight up lying when he claims there is no I-PH908 in Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, etc. In the red box we can see that I-PH908 is spread out in considerable amounts in Eastern Slavic countries among others. Considering I-PH908 ("Dinaric South") phylogeographic distribution is almost entirely in the Slavic world or wherever they migrated, and TMRCA of only 1850 ybp, its origin must lie somewhere north of the Carpathians. And it obviously could have only expanded after "this tribe's" Most Recent Common Ancestor lived 1850 ybp, which is precisely during the early Middle Ages when the Slavs were expanding and as a Slavic speaking marker.

 

[Fustan]

That's a lot of PH908 indeed! I should be more cautious with Garrick's posts, he almost fooled me!

 

[Fatherland]

That's a lot of PH908 indeed! I should be more cautious with Garrick's posts, he almost fooled me!

Hahaha, what a sneaky individual Garrick is.

 

[Fatherland]

Great catch Trojet! Garrick nearly managed to sneak his lies through!

I-PH908 seems to be even more more exclusively Slavic than R1a is.

 

[Fatherland]

Here are the frequencies in our Y-DNA Project which consists almost entirely of ghegs, who have throughout history, been described as the tallest of the Albanians (and in so, the Balkans).

I2 is around a measly 3.5 percent, and R1a is nowhere to be found.


I2a and R1a is more common of South Albania, mainly due to assimilation of their subdued slavic population.

This is the truth. The real haplogroup frequency among Ghegs with some, but very few outliers of non-Gheg origin.
Add my yDNA there and we'll have one more J2b2-L283 sample.

 

[Trojet]

That's a lot of PH908 indeed! I should be more cautious with Garrick's posts, he almost fooled me!

Hahaha, what a sneaky individual Garrick is.

"Garrick" thought he could sneak a big lie in, because he thought Trojet was full of it and stopped responding to their lies.

I-PH908 seems to be more more exclusively Slavic than R1a is.

Exactly. People don't realize this due to the "DINARIC SOUTH" label, which was only given to it for the high concentration in the Slavic Dinaric Alps before we had a SNP designation for it.
And some will always fall for this if they only read posts on Eupedia by users like "Garrick", Miroslav, Milan, Sile, etc, and don't get the the latest on this field from other more reliable sources.

Nonetheless, considering the facts I laid out above, it seems to be the most Slavic marker there is.

 

[Garrick]

By far this is the biggest lie you have told us, and you know it.

Here is the facts: I invite everyone to look at the following picture taken from FamilyTreeDNA I2a Project and see that this guy is straight up lying when he claims there is no I-PH908 in Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, etc. In the read box we can see that I-PH908 is spread out in considerable amounts in Eastern Slavic countries among others. Considering I-PH908 ("Dinaric South") phylogeographic distribution is almost entirely in the Slavic world or wherever they migrated, and TMRCA of only 1850 ybp, its origin must lie somewhere north of the Carpathians. And it obviously could have only expanded after "this tribe's" Most Recent Common Ancestor lived 1850 ybp, which is precisely during the early Middle Ages when the Slavs expanded and as a Slavic speaking marker.

You got nothing due to my worse English where it is obvious that I mistakenly expressed myself.

I changed the sentence several times and in the end I made a mistake, I had to read it once again.

It makes no sense to point due to language errors, and I'm not perfect in English, although I'm personally pleased that I've made progress in English and I do not make too many mistakes as earlier.

 

[Balkanite]

(no one is in Poland, Ukraine, Belarus... nor in any Eastern and Northern Slavic country).

Actually you didnt make one single "english" mistake in this sentence.
And to me it seems like you pretty consequently tried to deny I2a-slav for all other slavs than dinar slavs.
You managed to write the same point two times in one sentence.
How is that a "english" mistake?
How will you cover the above quoted lie?

 

[Garrick]

"Garrick" thought he could sneak a big lie in, because he thought Trojet was full of it and stopped responding to their lies.



Exactly. People don't realize this due to the "DINARIC SOUTH" label, which was only given to it for the high concentration in the Slavic Dinaric Alps before we had a SNP designation for it.
And some will always fall for this if they only read posts on Eupedia by users like "Garrick", Miroslav, Milan, Sile, etc, and don't get the the latest on this field from other more reliable sources.

Nonetheless, considering the facts I laid out above, it seems to be the most Slavic marker there is.

Moronic.

It's not worthwhile to comment on it.

 

[Garrick]

Actually you didnt make one single "english" mistake in this sentence.
And to me it seems like you pretty consequently tried to deny I2a-slav for all other slavs than dinar slavs.
You managed to write the same point two times in one sentence.
How is that a "english" mistake?
How will you cover the above quoted lie?

Few Albanians have warned me of my bad English, maybe you, but I am grateful for that.

Once on Eupedia I made big blame, I said sentences that sounded racist and moderator reacted, but by nature I am an anti-racist.

I thought I could without translate google but really I can not, and not ashamed to say, it's a much better and very useful tool.

 

[Garrick]

And back to topic.

It is natural that I-PH908 is represented among Ukrainians, Poles, Belarus and other Slavic people what I wanted to say (but made accidental translate language error).

Unfortunately faith of people in the Balkans was very difficult, almost unbearable, in time of Ottomans.

Due to Muslim Ottoman oppression, many people had to evade their homes, including Serbs from Kosovo and Metohija.

Great migration of Serbs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migrations_of_the_Serbs

During the Austro-Turkish war (1683-1699) relations between Muslims and Christians in the European provinces of the Ottoman Empire were extremely radicalized, resulting in calls by Muslim religious leaders for the persecution of local Christians and Jews. As a result of oppression, Christians and their church leaders, headed by Serbian Patriarch Arsenije III Serbian sided with the Austrians in 1689. In the following campaigns, Turkish forces conducted systematic atrocities against the Christian population in Serbian regions, resulting in the Great Migration of 1690.

Sources provide different data regarding the number of people in the first migration:

• 37,000 families into Habsburg Monarchy, according to a manuscript at Sisatovac monastery written by monk Stefan of Ravanica 28 years after the first wave.
• 37,000 families, according to a book by Pavle Julinac, printed in 1765.
• 37,000 families led by the Patriarch, according to Jovan Rajić, published in 1794–95.
• 37,000 families led by the Patriarch, according to Johann Engel, published 1801.
• Emile Picot concluded that it was 35,000 to 40,000 families, between 400,000 and 500,000 people. "It is a constant tradition that this population is counted by families, not by heads" also insisting that these were large extended families (see Zadruga)^.
• The Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences, supports the figure of 37,000 families.

Only in First migration a large number of Serbs have fled, mostly from Kosovo.

And Croats fled from Muslim Ottomans too. For example with Wikipedia:

"The ancestors of the Croats in the Czech Republic arrived in the 1500s from central Croatia, fleeing before the Ottoman Turks. The period of their settling is at the same time as the arrival of the Croats to Austria, Hungary and Slovakia, who are called the Burgenland Croats."
...

In Ukraine even created an area New Serbia of the migrants from Serbia.

 

[Nik]

So you're saying 37,000 Serbs (assuming predominantly I2a-Din even if they're from Kosovo), they gave birth to several million Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, Czech, etc?