Central and South Asian DNA Paper

I2514

T-M184 (xT1a1, T1a2, T1a3b1, T1a3b2a1) (xT1a derived=ancestral)

Most probably T2, orT1b and less probably T1a3.

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I2512

T-M184 (xT1a1, T1a2b)

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I1781

T-M184 (xT1a1, T1a2a1, T1a3b2a1)

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These T seems to be unrelated to those found in ancient Europe, just like the previously found among the PPNB samples.
 
It seems like you're assigning a very restrictive label "Indo-European" to any shift towards Neolithic_Iranian and CHG into Anatolia, which wouldn't be right. Right next to the possible earliest PIE speakers (possibly even a mother language to PIE, not Common PIE proper) there were certainly several other non-IE-speaking tribes heavy in Neo_Iran and CHG, and in the Bronze Age we can clearly see in the contemporary documentation that there was an active non-IE expansion from eastern Anatolian peoples (neighboring Armenia and Western Iran, probable cradles of Early PIE), particularly Urartians and Hurrians. The present linguistic diversity of the Caucasus also point to the likelihood of even other language families in that very region.

In my opinion (many would disagree of course) even the pre-Proto-Semitic speakers came from roughly northeastern Mesopotamia/southeastern Anatolia, for I think adopted they just adopted the Afro-Asiatic language of their conquered Levantine people like IE males probably did in the ethnogenesis of the Basque people.

"There were other language families spoken in that region"

True, but let me show you something, here are the two Y-DNA haplogroups found in Hajji Firuz:

J2
T2rpFLD.jpg

R1b-L23
qUDsunP.gif


The two form the exact same pattern in Anatolia and southeast Europe, curious don't you think?

Languages that used to be spoken in that general region in antiquity include Palaic, Luwic, Luwian, Lycian, Milyan, Carian, Sidetic, Pisidian, Hittite, Lydian, Greek, Ancient Macedonian, Dacian, Illyrian, Liburnian, Messapic, Mysian, Paeonin, Phrygian, Thracian, Venetic, Faliscan, Latin, Oscan, Umbrian, etc.

Not many of which are Hurro-Urartian.

In the Steppe meanwhile they spoke 1(One) IE language, Proto-Balto-Slavic.
 
Trojet posted this in another forum:

I looked at the two J2b's from Hajji Firuz (ca. 6000-5700 calBCE). From the reported SNPs, one of them is J2b-M12(L283-) and the other is J2b-M12(M241- M205-)
 
Kurdish scientists are arguing for decades that the Mitanni came to be born from Gutians that merged with the Hurrians. They argue that at least this Indo_Iranian substrata in Mitanni are the Gutians. They also argue that the Medes came to be born after the Assyrians conquered Mitanni, and this Gutian substrata retreated back into the Zagros Mountains where they formed the Medes. Think of that what you want. As Cyrus used to call all Medes West of the Iranian Plateau, "Gutians". Gutians-Medes became a synonym for each other.



There are many things we still have no idea of and I am pleased that with new samples things I have been arguing for quite a while show up.

Mark my words Gutian samples if we find any, will be identical to Medes and Mitanni. There is a reason Greek historians often used to use Mede and Mitanni interchangable too.

And as I mentioned previously I am still not convinced about the "Indo Aryan-ness" of the Mitanni. And it seems scientists do not agree on that toi. As I argued the reason why it appears more "Indo_Aryan" than Iranian can basically be explained by the fact that this Indo_Iranian substrata in Mitanni was very archaic. And as Indo_Aryan is more archaic than Iranian it will naturally fall closer to the Indo_Aryan languages. I argue that this was still an undivided Indo_Iranian substrata or a very archaic Iranic tongue that later formed into what we call West Iranic.

Okay with the probable role of Hurrians as a significant proportion of the ancestors of modern Kurds, and also a possible connection between Mitanni and the later Medes, but it's really a bit hard to believe the latter came from the Mitanni, because the Mitanni elite superstrate was clearly Indo-Aryan, with phonetic developments that are very specific to Indo-Aryan/Old Indic and did not happen in Iranian (they are not just "fossilized" retentions), whereas the Medes were undeniably speakers of Northwestern Iranian, a quite distinct branch by a margin of at least some centuries of linguistic divergence. It's hard to explain how Mitanni people would have went through a "de-evolution" of their own language to go back to Indo-Iranian and then evolve again now following the phonological innovations and sound rules of other Iranic languages that, coincidentally, also migrated to the same Iranian Plateau later in the Bronze & Iron Ages. Or then we'll have to hypothesize that these Mitanni became the Medes but lost their language and adopted it from Iranic neighbors.

Also, I fail to see any direct cultural and linguistic evidences of connection between the earliest Gutians and the Medes, except for the very frequent (and, because of that, misleading) use by Middle Eastern kingdoms of already common geographic and ethnic words to describe new peoples that arrived and were living in the same broad area and had a similar - read, not-civilized-farmer-states-like-us, way of life (a classic case is the Mushki, a term that seems to refer to at least 2 completely different peoples). The Middle Eastern ancient scribes of the kingdoms were not ethnologists nor even historians, so it is not actually rare at all to find them calling different peoples by the same name much like many people afterwards called all West Asian ethnicities "Turks" or "Sarracens", or Chinese ethnicities, including the several minorities, simply "Chinese". Names like "Gutians" often meant little more than "barbarian hordes coming from the same place in the mountains outside the empire".
 
Pre Proto Semites and Proto Semites most definitely came from South_Levant that should be clear by now. As they seem to share Levant_Neolithic ancestry with their Berber and Egyptian cousins + E1b and J1 being the most typical Haplogroups for these groups. And Levant_Neolithic being the time and place that did combined these elements.

Do we really have many samples of J1 and specifically J1-P58 or its close ancestors in the South Levant? Also, historically, the first attestations of Semitic peoples seem to come from the north and northwest (North Iraq & Syria). Early Akkadian, coming down to Sumerians from the north of Mesopotamia, was still pretty close to Proto-Semitic, which has been dated to circa 3,750 BC, and by 2,500 BC there were already long documents fully in Akkadian).
 
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IIRC the consensus is that the Kikkuli text is something like a translation of a translation, since the original Hurrian text retained the Indo-Iranian words when the vocabulary was either very specialized or difficult to translate. So the Mitanni were definitely Indo-Iranian.

I hadn't read this, but I just did and it seems so obvious now. There's even footnotes where he explains the meaning of words in Mitanni (Indo-Aryan).
 
Kurdish scientists are arguing for decades that the Mitanni came to be born from Gutians that merged with the Hurrians. They argue that at least this Indo_Iranian substrata in Mitanni are the Gutians. They also argue that the Medes came to be born after the Assyrians conquered Mitanni, and this Gutian substrata retreated back into the Zagros Mountains where they formed the Medes. Think of that what you want. As Cyrus used to call all Medes West of the Iranian Plateau, "Gutians". Gutians-Medes became a synonym for each other.



There are many things we still have no idea of and I am pleased that with new samples things I have been arguing for quite a while show up.

Mark my words Gutian samples if we find any, will be identical to Medes and Mitanni. There is a reason Greek historians often used to use Mede and Mitanni interchangable too.

And as I mentioned previously I am still not convinced about the "Indo Aryan-ness" of the Mitanni. And it seems scientists do not agree on that toi. As I argued the reason why it appears more "Indo_Aryan" than Iranian can basically be explained by the fact that this Indo_Iranian substrata in Mitanni was very archaic. And as Indo_Aryan is more archaic than Iranian it will naturally fall closer to the Indo_Aryan languages. I argue that this was still an undivided Indo_Iranian substrata or a very archaic Iranic tongue that later formed into what we call West Iranic.

Wish we knew who the Gutians were.

The Mitanni actually looked more Indo-Aryan than Indo-Iranian, which probably means it's at least as young as Indo-Iranian. And it would have been an Indo-(aryan/Iranian) SUPER-stratum since it was the kings using the Indo-Iranian names.
 
Pre Proto Semites and Proto Semites most definitely came from South_Levant that should be clear by now. As they seem to share Levant_Neolithic ancestry with their Berber and Egyptian cousins + E1b and J1 being the most typical Haplogroups for these groups. And Levant_Neolithic being the time and place that did combined these elements.

I actually think proto Semitic speakers lived in Iran and Caucasus, while also holding that Levant Neolithic is the ancestral Afro-Asiatic component, some reasons for this:

-haplogroup J1 doesn't appear until the Bronze Age, accompanying the Iran/Caucasus admixture, J1-P58 has a clear association to Semitic speakers.

-a linguistic argument in favor of this is: Proto Semitic; dating and locating it

-if Semitic speakers originated in the East, is that the origin of Afro-Asiatic ? no, Levant Neolithic ancestry did migrate to Iran and Caucasus, merging with them to become like the Iran Chalcolithic population, I'm not claiming all Iran Chal groups spoke Semitic but certainly a subset of them did, this hypothetical group then back-migrated to the Levant bringing with it CHG ancestry and haplogroup J1.
 
What is interesting is the fact that on one side of the border in Mitanni, you have Indo-Iranian, a daughter language of PIE, "moving with the times", sort of, and following the normal chronological evolution of the language; and on the other side, the Hittites, speaking their "relic language", with traits that pre-date the earliest forms of the PIE reconstructed as the ancestor of European and Indo-Iranian languages. Regardless of DNA, Hittite is the riddle.

Linguists would tell you that this is because Hittite departed from the linguistic homeland earlier than Indo-Iranian thus retaining these archaisms. Conversely this means that Indo-Iranians would have needed to remain in the homeland longer to innovate with the core language.

And the Hittites made themselves a riddle. Bastards trolled us all by absorbing/adopting all the gods of the people they conquered. This was their thing and their neighbors even mention it.

While I am at it... I can't see what the problem is with PIE arriving in the steppe from NW Iran. What does the history of haplogroup R+ tell us, from historic times as far back as we can see ? They were mobile, apparently quite aggressive, they arrived, conquered, and moved on. This is what may have happened around Lake Urmia and/or the Kura valley. They came, partly subdued the locals, intermarried with them, assimilated some of the J2b men, and moved on. They needn't have stayed very long - perhaps two or three generations. There were no written records to remember them - not even Sumer had yet emerged, so no wonder they went unremembered. No matter how we look at it, there has to be some explanation to the CHG genes in Yamna. This scenario works, with or without the R1b in the south east Caspian.

It's not impossible, but it requires some maneuvering. Maneuvering that also happens to require a lack of evidence for this maneuvering aside from what is at this time one Z2103 male. Steppe culture was remarkably continuous from Samara all the way to Srubna, who we know spoke Iranian. So we'd be talking about a small group of males, lacking any characteristics that would identify them with known Indoeuropeans nor leaving any trace of evidence to the question, moving through the Caucuses and quite literally infiltrating a steppe culture, while being absorbed by them, while changing their language to IE, from Uralic as Goga would say? And of course they would have completely decamped from the near east because they were replaced by Caucasian and Hurrian by the earliest records of the regions in question.

You're right about Hittite being really the only thing that really throws a wrench into steppe PIE , but this is an exception, and the nature of the culture does offer an explanation.
 
I actually think proto Semitic speakers lived in Iran and Caucasus, while also holding that Levant Neolithic is the ancestral Afro-Asiatic component, some reasons for this:

-haplogroup J1 doesn't appear until the Bronze Age, accompanying the Iran/Caucasus admixture, J1-P58 has a clear association to Semitic speakers.

-a linguistic argument in favor of this is: Proto Semitic; dating and locating it

-if Semitic speakers originated in the East, is that the origin of Afro-Asiatic ? no, Levant Neolithic ancestry did migrate to Iran and Caucasus, merging with them to become like the Iran Chalcolithic population, I'm not claiming all Iran Chal groups spoke Semitic but certainly a subset of them did, this hypothetical group then back-migrated to the Levant bringing with it CHG ancestry and haplogroup J1.

I could buy this. Akkad just down from the mountains.
 
Indo Aryans may have been fewer in number than the Hurrians, but not reduced historically to just mercinaries from the east. they had a larger impact on Middle Bronze Age history and on Hurrian culture.

The rulers of many small polities in the Levant had Sanskrit and Hurrian names.

Amarna letters–localities and their rulers

An enjoyable reading on the subject: Hurrians and Their Gods in Canaan

thx, I was not aware of that
still, I guess these people first bypassed BMAC prior to arrival in Mittani land
 
Do we really have many samples of J1 and specifically J1-P58 or its close ancestors in the South Levant? Also, historically, the first attestations of Semitic peoples seem to come from the north and northwest (North Iraq & Syria). Early Akkadian, coming down to Sumerians from the north of Mesopotamia, was still pretty close to Proto-Semitic, which has been dated to circa 3,750 BC, and by 2,500 BC there were already long documents fully in Akkadian).

As I wrote above, the whole Semitic package already formed in the South Levant by Calcolthic. There is no need for Semites evolving in Iran and turning back to Levant cause, the Levant_Neolithic package includes most ancestry that is shared between all Afro_Asiatic speakers. So when the Berbers left, a whole Iran_N package arrived in the South Levant, forming Levant_CHL. And this is where the Semite profile fits in perfectly.

Akkadians coming down from North Mesopotamia, that is factually incorrect. The reason why they are first mentioned in Mesopotamia is because that is the first time they came into contact with other highly advanced cultures there. The Akkadians basically adopted the Sumerian culture.
their offshots, the Assyrians actually called themselves "conquerers" of Subaru. Doesn't sound like they were natives to North Mesopotamia to me.

Let me give you an example. The first time anything Indo_Iranic is mentioned is in Mesopotamia with the Mitanni. That doesn't mean Indo_Iranians were formed there.
 
Also, do you remember our discussions here about the development of metallurgy on the steppe, and I thought it didn't make sense that there was such sophisticated metallurgy in Sintashta, but never any trail for that from the western steppe, and indeed the fact that the metallurgy on the western steppe didn't reach that kind of sophistication until later than Sintashta? I think this is the reason. It may have come from the indeed sophisticated BMAC north along the Inner Asian Corridor. This also correlates with the work Frachetti has been doing. I was glad to see he was one of the collaborators.

there were large tin deposits in the Sintashta area - east of the Ural, but not on the west of the Ural
I also recall from David Anthony that BMAC was very sophisticated in lost wax casting bronze techniques and this would be linked with the spread of Seima-Turbino
 
I actually think proto Semitic speakers lived in Iran and Caucasus, while also holding that Levant Neolithic is the ancestral Afro-Asiatic component, some reasons for this:

-haplogroup J1 doesn't appear until the Bronze Age, accompanying the Iran/Caucasus admixture, J1-P58 has a clear association to Semitic speakers.

-a linguistic argument in favor of this is: Proto Semitic; dating and locating it

-if Semitic speakers originated in the East, is that the origin of Afro-Asiatic ? no, Levant Neolithic ancestry did migrate to Iran and Caucasus, merging with them to become like the Iran Chalcolithic population, I'm not claiming all Iran Chal groups spoke Semitic but certainly a subset of them did, this hypothetical group then back-migrated to the Levant bringing with it CHG ancestry and haplogroup J1.

During Calcolthic you actually have already the whole "Semite package" there in the Southern Levant. There is no reason to assume Semites formed in Iran imo. There was most definitely ongoing influence from Iran towards the Semites/Levant and vica versa but the Semite package was already formed during Calcolthic. The Afro_Asiatic package even earlier during the Neolithic.

Also there are many other factors that speak against this theory. Too many to list them imo.
 
I actually think proto Semitic speakers lived in Iran and Caucasus, while also holding that Levant Neolithic is the ancestral Afro-Asiatic component, some reasons for this:

-haplogroup J1 doesn't appear until the Bronze Age, accompanying the Iran/Caucasus admixture, J1-P58 has a clear association to Semitic speakers.

-a linguistic argument in favor of this is: Proto Semitic; dating and locating it

-if Semitic speakers originated in the East, is that the origin of Afro-Asiatic ? no, Levant Neolithic ancestry did migrate to Iran and Caucasus, merging with them to become like the Iran Chalcolithic population, I'm not claiming all Iran Chal groups spoke Semitic but certainly a subset of them did, this hypothetical group then back-migrated to the Levant bringing with it CHG ancestry and haplogroup J1.

That's a very plausible hypothesis, thanks. It fits with my observatiion that Proto-Semitic seems to have come from the north and was not "old" Levantine stuff, but a population very influenced by non-Levantine, "northern" admixtures, mainly CHG and/or Neolithic Iranian(-like). I had thought about the possible scenario, a group of CHG/Iranian-heavy "highlanders" descending into Afro-Asiatic pre-Semitic, still mostly Neolithic Levantine people in the northern part of the Fertile Crescent, and there mixing with them, merging the two cultures and adopting the local Afro-Asiatic language, which after this intensive cultural change became Proto-Semitic. Do you think that's much more unlikely than what you propose? I mean, the results since "that" Lazaridis study pointed out to a more or less generalized post-Neolithic mixing everywhere with migrations and back-migrations of the formerly isolated admixtures in all the regions. That is, there was just as much Levant > Iran migration as Iran > Levant waves. So, couldn't Neolithic Iranian peoples have migrated to the Fertile Crescent (its northern part, more or less present-day Iraqi Kurdistan) and merge there, accounting thus for the very "Levantine" cultural makeup of the Proto-Semites?

Somehow I have a bit of trouble believing that Levantine people going to the Iranian Plateau or Caucasus, mixing there for many generations, going under other different cultural and linguistic influences, and then coming back much later, would still have retained their seemingly "native Levantine" character when they came back.

I kind of think that a scenario of foreign conquest and subsequent inter-ethnic mixing (kind of like Indo-Europeans coming to Central Europe) fits the way Proto-Semitic appeared (not just in genetics, but culture and linguistics) a bit better and is also more straightforward (yielding the same results), though I think your hypothesis is also very plausible and substantiated. If my hypothesis is correct, the Proto-Semites would've been a sort of "Basques of the Middle East", people who had mixed to some extent with the mobile pastoralists from the "north" but managed to preserve much of their genetics (less than the Basques, admittedly, the analogy is flawed, lol), indigenous culture and particularly their original language.
 
Okay with the probable role of Hurrians as a significant proportion of the ancestors of modern Kurds, and also a possible connection between Mitanni and the later Medes, but it's really a bit hard to believe the latter came from the Mitanni, because the Mitanni elite superstrate was clearly Indo-Aryan, with phonetic developments that are very specific to Indo-Aryan/Old Indic and did not happen in Iranian (they are not just "fossilized" retentions), whereas the Medes were undeniably speakers of Northwestern Iranian, a quite distinct branch by a margin of at least some centuries of linguistic divergence. It's hard to explain how Mitanni people would have went through a "de-evolution" of their own language to go back to Indo-Iranian and then evolve again now following the phonological innovations and sound rules of other Iranic languages that, coincidentally, also migrated to the same Iranian Plateau later in the Bronze & Iron Ages. Or then we'll have to hypothesize that these Mitanni became the Medes but lost their language and adopted it from Iranic neighbors.

Also, I fail to see any direct cultural and linguistic evidences of connection between the earliest Gutians and the Medes, except for the very frequent (and, because of that, misleading) use by Middle Eastern kingdoms of already common geographic and ethnic words to describe new peoples that arrived and were living in the same broad area and had a similar - read, not-civilized-farmer-states-like-us, way of life (a classic case is the Mushki, a term that seems to refer to at least 2 completely different peoples). The Middle Eastern ancient scribes of the kingdoms were not ethnologists nor even historians, so it is not actually rare at all to find them calling different peoples by the same name much like many people afterwards called all West Asian ethnicities "Turks" or "Sarracens", or Chinese ethnicities, including the several minorities, simply "Chinese". Names like "Gutians" often meant little more than "barbarian hordes coming from the same place in the mountains outside the empire".


See this is the problem I have. It is actually not clearly Indo_Aryan substrata. The "clearly" Indo Aryan substrata you are speaking about are basically the names of few deities that some of them are actually not clearly Indo_Aryan to begin with and some other that simply disappeared among Iranic tribes and are today only known among the Indo_Aryans. We know from Avesta that far more Indo_Iranic deities existed before Zoroastrians made it a monotheistic religion. These are basically things that disappeared in documented Iranic but still exist in Indo_Aryan.

And as I mentioned above the "Indo_Aryan" argument is not really clear. Far from it.

Let me give you just one example of an argument used by the "Indo_Aryan" camp. The Deities Mitra and Varuna. But both are actually quite commonly mentioned in Iranic documents and Mithra was among many even the highest Deity.

There are actually two theories and only one scientist for each. Kammenhuber argues for still undivided Indo_Iranian. And Mayrhofer for Indo_Aryan.

Mayrhofer's methodology quite frankly reminds me of David Anthony in the horse, the wheel and the language. Far too simplistic arguments based on small historic knowledge and very thin evidences.
I mean whoever uses Mithra as evidence for the argument of Indo_Aryan can't have allot of knowledge of history or linguistics imo.
 
As I wrote above, the whole Semitic package already formed in the South Levant by Calcolthic. There is no need for Semites evolving in Iran and turning back to Levant cause, the Levant_Neolithic package includes most ancestry that is shared between all Afro_Asiatic speakers. So when the Berbers left, a whole Iran_Chl package arrived in the South Levant, forming Levant_CHL. And this is where the Semite profile fits in perfectly.

Akkadians did come down from North Mesopotamia that is Factually incorrect. The reason why they are first mentioned in Mesopotamia is because that is the first time they came into contact with other highly advanced cultures there. The Akkadians basically adopted the Sumerian culture.

Let me give you an example. The first time anything Indo_Iranic is mentioned is in Mesopotamia with the Mitanni. That doesn't mean they were formed there.

I didn't say they were formed there in Sumerian Mesopotamia, but that they are attested by Sumerian sources as coming from the north, not from the west or south. Also, according at least to the source linked by IronSide (which is quite credible IMO), the "Proto-Semitic" package is really only complete in the Northern Fertile Crescent between Syria, Iraq and Westernmost Iran (roughly "Kurdistan") in fact, a place that is perhaps not coincidentally the same location where the Sumerians reported the increasingly strong migrations of Akkadians, in a north-to-south sweep. I wonder, though, why you say the Akkadians coming down from North Mesopotamia is factually incorrect. Do you have sources that state that they reached Mesopotamia from the south or any other direction, or you simply presumed that they could only come from the Southern Levant because the "Semitic package" was there (I somehow think it had just enough time to spread to the Northern Levant during the milennia-old Neolithic period).

Also, I didn't say that Semites came from Iran, nor am I talking about the spread of Afro-Asiatic languages (so no need to talk of Berber here), which began as early as 12,000-15,000 years ago, even preceding the Neolithic (the degree of divergence is definitely too big between AA subgroups for their ultimate origin to be in the Neolithic Levant, let alone near the Bronze Age, which is the almost certain date for the existence of Proto-Semitic due to the presence of common words for Early Bronze Age technologies in that proto-language).

Besides, the other Afro-Asiatic branches with the exception of Semitic didn't expand at all with a lot of J1 and CHG/Neo_Iranian accompanying them. That didn't happen, so the process that caused the expansion of Proto-Semitic was certainly very distinct from that of the earlier, much more ancient (Neolithic or even still Mesolithic) divergence of other AA branches.

I think you're misunderstanding some things here. I said that the Semites are most probably IMO the result of an intensive genetic mixing between the local people of the North Levant (Syria, North Iraq), of Neolithic Levant extraction, with incomers from the north or east that were heavy in CHG and/or Neolithic Iran admixtures, who possiby conquered them or at least came to live in massive numbers with them (the spread of J1 and CHG in the Near East in the Bronze Age was huge, so they certainly had a good chunk of it).

So, my position is that the Pre-Proto-Semitic language and culture were native to the Fertile Crescent and were picked up by the foreigners that mixed with the natives and thus changed their genetic makeup and perhaps also gave them some cultural input, but didn't manage to make the natives shift either language or culture. So, the fact that the "Semitic package" was already present in the Neolithic Levant has no bearing at all with my hypothesis, since that is exactly what I also think - only with the caveat that a "pure" South Levantine culture of the Neolithic, without heavy CHG/Iranian influx, would definitely have not spread so much J1-P58 (and even some J2), CHG and Iranian_Chalcolithic almost everywhere where they imposed their language.

When you combine that with the evidences from linguistics (like words for naphtha and ice), apparent Proto-Semitic loanwords into Proto-Indo-European (which was certainly not close to the Southern Levant) and the Sumerian documents, honestly, I think that assuming a southern origin for them is possible, but certainly not probable.

The increasing and intensive mixture of Levantine, Anatolian and Iranian admixtures in the Middle East after the Neolithic was repeatedly demonstrated by the chronological sequence of ancient DNA from that region, in the last few years. And Proto-Semitic as a language that expanded in the Near East is undoubtedly a phenomenon of the Copper Age/Early Bronze Age, exactly when that intensification of migration and ethnic mixing was happening.
 
I didn't say they were formed there in Sumerian Mesopotamia, but that they are attested by Sumerian sources as coming from the north, not from the west or south. Also, according at least to the source linked by IronSide (which is quite credible IMO), the "Proto-Semitic" package is really only complete in the Northern Fertile Crescent between Syria, Iraq and Westernmost Iran (roughly "Kurdistan") in fact, a place that is perhaps not coincidentally the same location where the Sumerians reported the increasingly strong migrations of Akkadians, in a north-to-south sweep. I wonder, though, why you say the Akkadians coming down from North Mesopotamia is factually incorrect. Do you have sources that state that they reached Mesopotamia from the south or any other direction, or you simply presumed that they could only come from the Southern Levant because the "Semitic package" was there (I somehow think it had just enough time to spread to the Northern Levant during the milennia-old Neolithic period).

Also, I didn't say that Semites came from Iran, nor am I talking about the spread of Afro-Asiatic languages (so no need to talk of Berber here), which began as early as 12,000-15,000 years ago, even preceding the Neolithic (the degree of divergence is definitely too big between AA subgroups for their ultimate origin to be in the Neolithic Levant, let alone near the Bronze Age, which is the almost certain date for the existence of Proto-Semitic due to the presence of common words for Early Bronze Age technologies in that proto-language).

Besides, the other Afro-Asiatic branches with the exception of Semitic didn't expand at all with a lot of J1 and CHG/Neo_Iranian accompanying them. That didn't happen, so the process that caused the expansion of Proto-Semitic was certainly very distinct from that of the earlier, much more ancient (Neolithic or even still Mesolithic) divergence of other AA branches.

I think you're misunderstanding some things here. I said that the Semites are most probably IMO the result of an intensive genetic mixing between the local people of the North Levant (Syria, North Iraq), of Neolithic Levant extraction, with incomers from the north or east that were heavy in CHG and/or Neolithic Iran admixtures, who possiby conquered them or at least came to live in massive numbers with them (the spread of J1 and CHG in the Near East in the Bronze Age was huge, so they certainly had a good chunk of it).

So, my position is that the Pre-Proto-Semitic language and culture were native to the Fertile Crescent and were picked up by the foreigners that mixed with the natives and thus changed their genetic makeup and perhaps also gave them some cultural input, but didn't manage to make the natives shift either language or culture. So, the fact that the "Semitic package" was already present in the Neolithic Levant has no bearing at all with my hypothesis, since that is exactly what I also think - only with the caveat that a "pure" South Levantine culture of the Neolithic, without heavy CHG/Iranian influx, would definitely have not spread so much J1-P58 (and even some J2), CHG and Iranian_Chalcolithic almost everywhere where they imposed their language.

When you combine that with the evidences from linguistics (like words for naphtha and ice), apparent Proto-Semitic loanwords into Proto-Indo-European (which was certainly not close to the Southern Levant) and the Sumerian documents, honestly, I think that assuming a southern origin for them is possible, but certainly not probable.

The increasing and intensive mixture of Levantine, Anatolian and Iranian admixtures in the Middle East after the Neolithic was repeatedly demonstrated by the chronological sequence of ancient DNA from that region, in the last few years. And Proto-Semitic as a language that expanded in the Near East is undoubtedly a phenomenon of the Copper Age/Early Bronze Age, exactly when that intensification of migration and ethnic mixing was happening.

I will list you few reasons why I think Akkadians did not come down from North.

1. There is no sign of anything Semitic during Sumerian period North of them. The only people known are 1. Hurrian like people and the Gutians.
2. Actually Akkadian text themselves attest East Semitic tribes settling from the West into Sumer which formed them.
Historically, it is believed that this linguistic situation came about as speakers of East Semitic languages wandered further east, settling in Mesopotamia during the third millennium BCE, as attested by Akkadian texts from this period. By the beginning of the second millennium BCE, East Semitic languages, in particular Akkadian, had come to dominate the region. They were influenced by the non-Semitic Sumerian language and adopted cuneiform writing.
3. Offshots of Akkadians aka Assyrians calling themselves "conquerers" of Subaru (North Mesopotamia) doesn't sound very local to me if you call yourself a conquerer.
4.No need for Semitic to evolve further East because Iran_N ancestry is already heavily involved in South_Levant_ eneolithic with yDNA J popping up next to typical proto Afro-Asiatic E1b.

So yes you are correct in arguing that some J people came down from the mountains in helping to form the Semites, but these guys actually came down and moved directly into the Levant. What I am trying to explain is you don't need to have Semites evolve or Akkadians come down from the North to explain the Iran_N ancestry in Semites, because it is already there in the South of Levant during late Neolithic.
 
Imo Early PIE was EEF/ANF related.

Late PIE groups had different amounts of Iran Neolithic related admixture. Proto-Aryans were like early Medes and they expanded from 'West Asia' but they could have been already predominately (~50-50?) Iran N like before the expansion.

Proto-Dravidians were likely Iran N & 'AASI'.
 
It's not impossible, but it requires some maneuvering. Maneuvering that also happens to require a lack of evidence for this maneuvering aside from what is at this time one Z2103 male. Steppe culture was remarkably continuous from Samara all the way to Srubna, who we know spoke Iranian. So we'd be talking about a small group of males, lacking any characteristics that would identify them with known Indoeuropeans nor leaving any trace of evidence to the question, moving through the Caucuses and quite literally infiltrating a steppe culture, while being absorbed by them, while changing their language to IE, from Uralic as Goga would say? And of course they would have completely decamped from the near east because they were replaced by Caucasian and Hurrian by the earliest records of the regions in question.

You're right about Hittite being really the only thing that really throws a wrench into steppe PIE , but this is an exception, and the nature of the culture does offer an explanation.

I think you're not giving the huge Caucasian, "southern" influence onto the Late Neolithic/Copper Age steppe cultures, not just genetically (as much as 50%, that could never be done by a migration of just a "small group of males"), but also culturally, with the very spread of agriculture and particularly pastoralism in a region that was previously inhabited just by hunter-gatherers. This new finding does not point to a fully formed PIE, ready to be split into many slices of IE daughter families, still in Transcaucasia/Iran, but the more distant, ultimate source of much of the eventual PIE-speaking people in the steppe and quite possibly also of the language itself. Also, that does not mean that most PIE branches weren't in the end derived from the languages spoken by people who derived a large part of their ancestry from "indigenous" steppe (former) hunter gatherers.

Anyway, something really transformative and profound connected the Neolithic Steppe with the Caucasus region and caused the steppe cultures to change significantly, and I can't see any good reason why that couldn't have been done through migration of people as many others that we've seen in the same historic period marked by the expansion of agriculture and animal domestication.

PIE and the IE "package" didn't appear fully formed with Yamna and so on, it was clearly a long process involving a lot of external influences coming mostly from the Caucasus/Caspian region - and in that process there were certainly different stages of the language, different enough to be called different languages (e.g. Old English vs. Modern English).

None of this discredits the "steppe PIE" expansion, which is a much later phenomenon (Bronze Age) and another issue, IMO at least.
 

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