Central and South Asian DNA Paper

Wow ! is it not the first ancient U1 that we have ? so we have all, apart U9, U subclades in ancient context now no ?

What's your timeframe for ancient : )? This is definitely the oldest one in this paper (7756 YBP).

There are 8 other U1s that showed up in this paper but they hover around 3000-5500 YBP on average.

The oldest european sample of U1 I've seen showed up recently in the Genomic History of Southeast Europe paper in a 5100 year old I2a2a1b male in Bulgaria. (close to Varna-Black sea coast).

What is bizarre to me is that U1 is quite rare yet shows up in deep south of india in Kerala and still shows up in trace amounts spreadout through europe also. The steppe area doesn't have it that much. (i'm basing
this on public studies I've been saving in a folder, so its very possible I've missed crucial info and am mistaken).



This is a map of FTDNA's U1 project:

grglNmB.png
 
it has been discussed indeed

during PPNA wheat farming and herding were still 2 seperate communities
during PPNB they merged, that is starting 10.7 ka , even earlier than the paper says
herders merging with agriculturalists west :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_Aswad
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/'Ain_Ghazal :

Y-DNA haplogroup E1b1b1b2 has been found in 75% of the 'Ain Ghazal population, along with 60% of PPNB populations (and is present in all three stages of PPNB) and in most Natufians.

T1a (T-M70) is found among the later Middle Pre-Pottery Neolithic B (MPPNB) inhabitants from 'Ain Ghazal, but was not found among the early and middle MPPNB populations. As was previously found in the early Neolithic settlement from Karsdorf (Germany) a subclade of mtDNA R0 was found with Y-DNA T at 'Ain Ghazal.
It is thought, therefore, that the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B population is mostly composed of two different populations: members of early Natufian civilisation and a population resulting from immigration from the north, i.e. north-eastern Anatolia.

They forget to mention also H2 was there and in nearby Motza, Israel

agriculturalists merging with herders east :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chogha_Golan

T1a-M70 is never found in MPPNB but T1-L206 with several ancestral snps for T1a subclades. So it should belong to a branch of the T1b subclade which is still found in Lebanon.
 
What's your timeframe for ancient : )? This is definitely the oldest one in this paper (7756 YBP).There are 8 other U1s that showed up in this paper but they hover around 3000-5500 YBP on average.The oldest european sample of U1 I've seen showed up recently in the Genomic History of Southeast Europe paper in a 5100 year old I2a2a1b male in Bulgaria. (close to Varna-Black sea coast).What is bizarre to me is that U1 is quite rare yet shows up in deep south of india in Kerala and still shows up in trace amounts spreadout through europe also. The steppe area doesn't have it that much. (i'm basingthis on public studies I've been saving in a folder, so its very possible I've missed crucial info and am mistaken).This is a map of FTDNA's U1 project:
grglNmB.png
By ancient i mean prehistoric, before antiquity at least. And i didnt know that there was a U1 in the Mathiesen paper ! If i recall U1 is an independant lineage in the U groupe like U5 and U6. So it could be very old, and have multiple ethnic history or it might be hide for a long time, before migrating in various directions. The region of its origin might be poorly study, i dont think it gonna pop in paleolithic europe for sur, but like U6 poping in paleolithic Romania and its modern distribution we never know.
 
By ancient i mean prehistoric, before antiquity at least. And i didnt know that there was a U1 in the Mathiesen paper ! If i recall U1 is an independant lineage in the U groupe like U5 and U6. So it could be very old, and have multiple ethnic history or it might be hide for a long time, before migrating in various directions. The region of its origin might be poorly study, i dont think it gonna pop in paleolithic europe for sur, but like U6 poping in paleolithic Romania and its modern distribution we never know.

Check out my U1 thread where I dump samples that pop up. The Mathieson U1 for example: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...oup-U1-General?p=533173&viewfull=1#post533173
 
Check out my U1 thread where I dump samples that pop up. The Mathieson U1 for example: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...oup-U1-General?p=533173&viewfull=1#post533173
Yes i already see your topic a few times ago. Somehow the link between Varna and Hajji Firuz seems to be somehow a related Anatolian-Iranian link. I dont really understand everything in the paper, they seems to say that EEF is more related to iran neolithic than anatolia mesolithic and that anatolia neolithic is linked with iran neolithic and EEF. U1 might be one of the maternal lineage to such a link. But do we have any anatolia mesolithic haplogroups ? Or U1 could really be a lineage that never really explode and was staying quite for much of history.
 
How genetically to explain the following facts by this Harvard research?


The Sintashta fortified settlements (Arkaim and Sintashta) have round walls and moats [8; 9]. The houses are blocked together. Direct analogies with them are known only in Anatolia (Demirchiuyuk, Pulur, Mercin), Syro-Palestine (Rogem Hiri) and the Transcaucasus (Uzerlic-Tepe) [10 – 13]. Sintashta burial traditions are identical to ones in this region too. Other artefacts (metal, ceramics etc.) have parallels there [14].
A technology of metal production is very specific. Metallurgists alloyed copper with arsenic on an oresmelting stage. In Eastern Europe such way of bronze production was not known. However, it was known in the Transcaucasus and, perhaps, in Near East. A correlation of weapons, tools, ornaments and other artefacts is similar to those in the Transcaucasus and Asia Minor.


* THE SINTASHTA CULTURE AND SOME QUESTIONS OF INDO-EUROPEANS ORIGINS. S.A.Grigoryev


I think we can solve the problems of andronovo cremation culture and maybe altal tin bronze technique also by Dali gene. Considering CHG gene in Dali early bronze in east kazark, cremation culture seems to be transferred from Dali to Andronovo.


A new wave of newcomers left F’odorovo culture sites. Some include usually this culture, together with Alakul culture, in Andronovo culture. However, all attempts to find its local roots had no success. But these roots are in North-Western Iran and South Azerbaijan: cremation in stone boxes and cysts under mounds, clay props for hearth, oval dishes, polished ware. Complex of metal have analogies in Circumpontic area, but first of all, in Sumbar culture in South-Western Turkmenistan. Potteries from Central Asia have been found in some F’odorovo sites.


Before 3000 BC, societies of western Asia were cultivating wheat and societies of China were cultivating broomcorn millet; these are early nodes of the world's agriculture. The authors are searching for early cereals in the vast lands that separate the two, and report a breakthrough at Begash in south-east Kazakhstan. Here, high precision recovery and dating have revealed the presence of both wheat and millet in the later third millennium BC. Moreover the context, a cremation burial, raises the suggestion that these grains might signal a ritual rather than a subsistence commodity
 
In my personal view, what i found irritating is how the whole indo-european package change in a whole whetever the hypothesis. Steppe was the mainstream theory for the horse-raider R1b thing for a while, whatever it was exactly that scenario, if R1b now is fought coming from Kurdistan so both PIE and Horses also come from Kurdistan and et caetera. Sometimes i feel that for some people it's juste a prejudice if some ancient thing come from europe and not from the middle-east. Back to the topic, this R1b sample is definitely an outlier for the actual datas and a big one, but he is not very an answer to any questions. If we put all the archeologic dates together, there is huge flow. It would mean modern R1b-z2103 distribution that is primarly located in anatolia is not steppe R1b but transcaucasus native, but at the same time the archeological mainstream view of IE's start in Samara and Khvalynsk or Sredny Stog without Z2103, it would mean all R1b without any specific subclades would came at different times from south caucasus.

Actually, it is not "classical" Late PIE with its traditional "package" of horse, wheel and so on that we're talking about IF the CHG/Iranian-related part of the PIE speaking peoples came from around Lake Urmia. PIE is in any case dated to well after 5,000 BC, especially if you're talking about the PIE-minus-Anatolian, LPIE stage. These would be just a significant part of the genetic and most probably also cultural ancestry of the LPIE speakers and also quite possibly the carriers of the language that was the direct ancestor of PIE, but not ALREADY PIE by 5,500 BC in Iran.

We can't lump these ancient languages and cultures together regardless of whether you're talking about 5,500 BC, 4,000 BC or 3,000 BC. I think nobody - at least nobody who has a good grasp of the chronology of those cultures - is asserting that PIE as the latest common dialect of all the extant IE branches was already being spoken in Early Neolithic Kurdistan. That's not the hypothesis that's being discussed as at least plausible according to the latest evidences.

To give you a more recent, historic example, if we're investigating the spread of Spanish in Latin America we'd find an expansion around 1500-1600, an origin of the language in the northern part of Iberia (not from where the bulk of the immigrants came), but an immediate ancestor of the language in a very different region and with a very distinct people (genetically and also in many ways culturally), the Latin speakers of Central Italy. That's how dynamic, mobile and changing languages (as cultures) are.
 
I think you're not giving the huge Caucasian, "southern" influence onto the Late Neolithic/Copper Age steppe cultures, not just genetically (as much as 50%, that could never be done by a migration of just a "small group of males"), but also culturally, with the very spread of agriculture and particularly pastoralism in a region that was previously inhabited just by hunter-gatherers. This new finding does not point to a fully formed PIE, ready to be split into many slices of IE daughter families, still in Transcaucasia/Iran, but the more distant, ultimate source of much of the eventual PIE-speaking people in the steppe and quite possibly also of the language itself. Also, that does not mean that most PIE branches weren't in the end derived from the languages spoken by people who derived a large part of their ancestry from "indigenous" steppe (former) hunter gatherers.

Anyway, something really transformative and profound connected the Neolithic Steppe with the Caucasus region and caused the steppe cultures to change significantly, and I can't see any good reason why that couldn't have been done through migration of people as many others that we've seen in the same historic period marked by the expansion of agriculture and animal domestication.

PIE and the IE "package" didn't appear fully formed with Yamna and so on.....

This just isn't true, or at least the evidence doesn't support it at this time. Steppe was practicing stock breeding well before Yamnaya. The PIE package is present in Steppe Eneolithic cultures especially Sredny Stog and Lower Mikhaylovka levels/Kemi Oba. The Iranian_neo had already started to increase at this time well before Yamnaya. What we actually see very early is obvious and significant influence from the Balkans, not the Caucuses, or rather the proposed early evidence of influence from the Caucuses is inferred rather than proven directly. The Corded Ware genotype predates Yamnaya, and it's also different with less CHG/Iranian_Neo. It's missing some sort of Caucasian component that Yamnaya has. So if we agree that Corded Ware types spoke IE, then we have to reject Yamnaya PIE, which I do and I always have. I think Yamnaya was already speaking Indo-Iranian and this is supported by Iranian and North Indian being predominantly descended from Yamnaya, not LBA steppe.

There was no "profound" transformation. An example of that would be farmers moving into the Balkans. On the steppe we see very much the opposite. It’s a vast swath of closely related cultures that show undisputed continuity from the Neolithic to Yamnaya. As the cultures develop you don’t see much difference from the Dnieper to the Volga. There is nothing disruptive happening that would suggest a cultural superimposition like we see in the Balkans, so there’s nothing to make us thing that there must have been a language imposition from the South.

We do have the increase Iranian_neo/CHG admixture, we have Caucuses influenced metallurgical styles emerging in Yamnaya, and what appears to be a freakishly early neolithic on the Volga (6000BC) that most have deduced must have come from the South Caspian via the Caucuses because the eastern steppe is so far away from the Balkans. The evidence consists only of domestic animal bones and maybe egg shaped pots that look South Caspianesque. This deduction is bolstered by the paper showing that farming/stock breeding arrived in the Baltic upon the appearance of CHG/Iranian_neo without Anatolian admixture. That's really about it. We don't have any clear trail of Iranian_neo stock breeders moving onto the steppe and bringing pots with them, much less some sort of neolithic invasion like we see in the Balkans.
I’m not saying something like this couldn’t have happened, I’m saying that the evidence doesn’t show this and we have a very good example of what this would have looked like in the Balkans.

And what then do we do with the Caucasian languages that appear to have extended into Anatolia in the Bronze Age?
Anatolian is the IE language group that most reveals the influence of Caucasian, which is why many prefer a route through the Caucuses to explain the arrival of the Anatolian speakers in Anatolia. But if PIE is in the Caucuses, then where are the Caucasian speakers and how exactly are they influencing early indoeuropean if not from their seat in the Caucuses?

Nalchik and Maykop genomes will likely be telling along with Eneolithic Mikhaylovka and Kemi oba. It’s hard to imagine Caucasian influences not being Maykop mediated, so the interface must be in the Southern Ukraine.
 
This just isn't true, or at least the evidence doesn't support it at this time. Steppe was practicing stock breeding well before Yamnaya. The PIE package is present in Steppe Eneolithic cultures especially Sredny Stog and Lower Mikhaylovka levels/Kemi Oba. The Iranian_neo had already started to increase at this time well before Yamnaya. What we actually see very early is obvious and significant influence from the Balkans, not the Caucuses, or rather the proposed early evidence of influence from the Caucuses is inferred rather than proven directly. The Corded Ware genotype predates Yamnaya, and it's also different with less CHG/Iranian_Neo. It's missing some sort of Caucasian component that Yamnaya has. So if we agree that Corded Ware types spoke IE, then we have to reject Yamnaya PIE, which I do and I always have. I think Yamnaya was already speaking Indo-Iranian and this is supported by Iranian and North Indian being predominantly descended from Yamnaya, not LBA steppe.

There was no "profound" transformation. An example of that would be farmers moving into the Balkans. On the steppe we see very much the opposite. It’s a vast swath of closely related cultures that show undisputed continuity from the Neolithic to Yamnaya. As the cultures develop you don’t see much difference from the Dnieper to the Volga. There is nothing disruptive happening that would suggest a cultural superimposition like we see in the Balkans, so there’s nothing to make us thing that there must have been a language imposition from the South.

We do have the increase Iranian_neo/CHG admixture, we have Caucuses influenced metallurgical styles emerging in Yamnaya, and what appears to be a freakishly early neolithic on the Volga (6000BC) that most have deduced must have come from the South Caspian via the Caucuses because the eastern steppe is so far away from the Balkans. The evidence consists only of domestic animal bones and maybe egg shaped pots that look South Caspianesque. This deduction is bolstered by the paper showing that farming/stock breeding arrived in the Baltic upon the appearance of CHG/Iranian_neo without Anatolian admixture. That's really about it. We don't have any clear trail of Iranian_neo stock breeders moving onto the steppe and bringing pots with them, much less some sort of neolithic invasion like we see in the Balkans.
I’m not saying something like this couldn’t have happened, I’m saying that the evidence doesn’t show this and we have a very good example of what this would have looked like in the Balkans.

And what then do we do with the Caucasian languages that appear to have extended into Anatolia in the Bronze Age?
Anatolian is the IE language group that most reveals the influence of Caucasian, which is why many prefer a route through the Caucuses to explain the arrival of the Anatolian speakers in Anatolia. But if PIE is in the Caucuses, then where are the Caucasian speakers and how exactly are they influencing early indoeuropean if not from their seat in the Caucuses?

Nalchik and Maykop genomes will likely be telling along with Eneolithic Mikhaylovka and Kemi oba. It’s hard to imagine Caucasian influences not being Maykop mediated, so the interface must be in the Southern Ukraine.

Well, you yourself said it: "The Iranian_neo had already started to increase at this time well before Yamnaya." The Iranian/Caucasian genetic - and certainly cultural - influence in the Pontic-Caspian steppe clearly arrived well before Yamnaya, so I don't really understand much of your comment. That's in fact what I was talking about: not about Yamna, but about the increasing Iranian_Neo affinity before it and right when the transition from Mesolithic to Neolithic ways of life occurs, with CHG/Iranian_Neo already increasing well before Yamna, in Sredny Stog and Khvalynsk/Repin. That's the era where "profound transformations" did happen - and with them or right after them came also an increasing % of Iranian_Neo-like admixture. I don't think that's a coincidence or a small detail.

If it hasn't become clear already, I don't believe that PIE appeared out of thin air as a language and a culture in Yamna, without any links to previous cultures of the same Pontic-Caspian region and, in the longer term, elsewhere.

I also don't believe that there was always just 1 PIE dialect that somehow managed to remain homogeneous and unified for thousands of years and survived all alone to give birth to dozens of language subfamilies. I think there were certainly some missing links, extinct languages, either superseded by non-IE languages and, particularly, replaced by a more prestigious and expansive form of LPIE that was close enough to make linguistic shift very easy and handy for them.

As for the origins of PIE, the hypothesis being discussed now AFAIK is not about its origins in the Caucasus mountains and valleys, but SOUTH of the Caucasus, and as for why there is "no" Caucasian influence actually many linguists have proposed that there is a still noticeable Caucasian influence and mutual connection (loanwords, typological similarities, and so on) between PIE and Caucasian language families, mainly Northwestern Caucasian and Kartvelian. Besides that, there is always the possibility, no, the likelihood that languages have been replaced, moved to other places, become extinct and so on, so the language distribution we see now in the Caucasus does not necessarily - nor even probably - the same linguistic makeup of the Caucasus 7,000 years ago.

Finally, of course we're talking here about some sort of pre-PIE or maybe even "pre-pre-PIE", thus allowing for at least 2,000 years of evolution and heavier influence from other language groups until we have "classic" LPIE, especially after a supposed long-distance migration and extensive mixing with other peoples (EHG-related mainly, but also others). With all that being considered, it wouldn't be any wonder why any "areal features" or loanwords from Neolithic Caucasian - or, more correctly, Transcaucasian languages would be hardly discernible nowadays.

I have no issue with reconciling both an (not "the") origin of the earliest form of PIE, or actually its mother language, south of the Caucasus, but the appearance of the PIE as we know, just before the split of Anatolian, in the north, with steppe cultures. Or even the possibility that those Iranian_Neo people who mixed with others north of the Caucasus simply adopted the local language without imposing their. The genetics don't always correlate perfectly with the dynamics of language, especially languages in varied forms of interaction with each other. But at least in theory, I don't think those linguistic objections you present are very relevant, considering that in Hajji Firuz we're definitely not seeing, not even hypothetically, a PIE speaker, but at best an early ancestor of it who lived in in a linguistic/cultural scenario much different from that of the Yamna period,

As a sidenote, I think CWC only appears north of the steppes when the Yamna were already advanced in its expansion into Sredny Stog territory, so I wouldn't be too certain that the Sredny Stog-like elements that contributed to CWC weren't already linguistically assimilated to a "common LPIE", maybe even some sort of koiné, though in my opinion Sredny Stog may have already spoken a IE language, but not necessarily - and IMO probably not - "the" LPIE that really left living descendants in many Bronze/Iron Age language branches.
 
J2b-L283, E-V13 & R1b-Z2103 are still very frequent Y-DNA in the Altaic & Uralic groups of the European steppe and the forest zone to the north where neolithic farmers probably didn't play a very important role or never reached at all. I find this a good reason to believe that these Y-DNA haplogroups expanded from the steppe at one point, with their westward expansions being more concentrated in the Balkans rather than Central Europe perhaps. Thracians, Illyrians? Your guess is as good as mine.
This lineages were probably brought by the Greeks there in my opinion, see Gelonians for example,they are mentioned by Herodotus as former Hellenes. They settled among the Budini probably Finno-Ugric or related people. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelonians
 
Yamna, Yamna, Yamna... until you leave this carousel you will do laps eternaly, Yamnayans are a dead end. Look at Andronovo, probably Indo-Iranian, Sintashta, and CWC (Baltoslavic and Germanic?) have in commong a profile made by EEF, CHG, EHG and some WHG. So much now to choose from where PIE popped up... but Mycaeneans had as novelty EHG.
 
This just isn't true, or at least the evidence doesn't support it at this time. Steppe was practicing stock breeding well before Yamnaya. The PIE package is present in Steppe Eneolithic cultures especially Sredny Stog and Lower Mikhaylovka levels/Kemi Oba. The Iranian_neo had already started to increase at this time well before Yamnaya. What we actually see very early is obvious and significant influence from the Balkans, not the Caucuses, or rather the proposed early evidence of influence from the Caucuses is inferred rather than proven directly. The Corded Ware genotype predates Yamnaya, and it's also different with less CHG/Iranian_Neo. It's missing some sort of Caucasian component that Yamnaya has. So if we agree that Corded Ware types spoke IE, then we have to reject Yamnaya PIE, which I do and I always have. I think Yamnaya was already speaking Indo-Iranian and this is supported by Iranian and North Indian being predominantly descended from Yamnaya, not LBA steppe.

There was no "profound" transformation. An example of that would be farmers moving into the Balkans. On the steppe we see very much the opposite. It’s a vast swath of closely related cultures that show undisputed continuity from the Neolithic to Yamnaya. As the cultures develop you don’t see much difference from the Dnieper to the Volga. There is nothing disruptive happening that would suggest a cultural superimposition like we see in the Balkans, so there’s nothing to make us thing that there must have been a language imposition from the South.

We do have the increase Iranian_neo/CHG admixture, we have Caucuses influenced metallurgical styles emerging in Yamnaya, and what appears to be a freakishly early neolithic on the Volga (6000BC) that most have deduced must have come from the South Caspian via the Caucuses because the eastern steppe is so far away from the Balkans. The evidence consists only of domestic animal bones and maybe egg shaped pots that look South Caspianesque. This deduction is bolstered by the paper showing that farming/stock breeding arrived in the Baltic upon the appearance of CHG/Iranian_neo without Anatolian admixture. That's really about it. We don't have any clear trail of Iranian_neo stock breeders moving onto the steppe and bringing pots with them, much less some sort of neolithic invasion like we see in the Balkans.
I’m not saying something like this couldn’t have happened, I’m saying that the evidence doesn’t show this and we have a very good example of what this would have looked like in the Balkans.

And what then do we do with the Caucasian languages that appear to have extended into Anatolia in the Bronze Age?
Anatolian is the IE language group that most reveals the influence of Caucasian, which is why many prefer a route through the Caucuses to explain the arrival of the Anatolian speakers in Anatolia. But if PIE is in the Caucuses, then where are the Caucasian speakers and how exactly are they influencing early indoeuropean if not from their seat in the Caucuses?

Nalchik and Maykop genomes will likely be telling along with Eneolithic Mikhaylovka and Kemi oba. It’s hard to imagine Caucasian influences not being Maykop mediated, so the interface must be in the Southern Ukraine.


if the corded ware has less CHG in it's steppe package than contemporary eastern yamna samples this actually seems more plausible to me. i was wondering if we actually know the exact proportions of CHG and EHG when we speak about "steppe" admixture in different populations.
so far the studies who looked at the genome of corded ware concluded that it could be modeled as coming from eastern yamnas but that it also could come from a population more west.
but can we really exclude the possibility that yamnas to the east spoke no pie? what if PIE was broght by caucasus people and then a populaion of yamnas to the west with less CHG moved west?
 
Yamna, Yamna, Yamna... until you leave this carousel you will do laps eternaly, Yamnayans are a dead end. Look at Andronovo, probably Indo-Iranian, Sintashta, and CWC (Baltoslavic and Germanic?) have in commong a profile made by EEF, CHG, EHG and some WHG. So much now to choose from where PIE popped up... but Mycaeneans had as novelty EHG.
I dont want to make ad hominem attack but you should put PIE somewhere in your mind and focus on the actual study and it's not a critic you seem obsessed with PIE.
 
How genetically to explain the following facts by this Harvard research?





* THE SINTASHTA CULTURE AND SOME QUESTIONS OF INDO-EUROPEANS ORIGINS. S.A.Grigoryev


I think we can solve the problems of andronovo cremation culture and maybe altal tin bronze technique also by Dali gene. Considering CHG gene in Dali early bronze in east kazark, cremation culture seems to be transferred from Dali to Andronovo.

We discussed this extensively in the past, and I just referenced it recently on this thread when I said that it was clear from the archaeology that the metallurgy in Sintashta couldn't have come from the west with the migration of the steppe people east because the metallurgy in Sintashta was far advanced of what was in the western steppe at that time. When we were discussing it I had just read the Frachetti papers and speculated that the technology might have come up the Inner Asian corridor from the Caucasus. The same goes for the architecture. There was nothing like it in the west.

It's also Frachetti who extensively analyzed the first appearance of grains in certain parts of the east and how it had a ritual significance and did a lot of work on how important the Inner Asian Corridor was for technological exchange.

https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=LMGXZ9cAAAAJ&hl=en
 
if the corded ware has less CHG in it's steppe package than contemporary eastern yamna samples this actually seems more plausible to me. i was wondering if we actually know the exact proportions of CHG and EHG when we speak about "steppe" admixture in different populations.
so far the studies who looked at the genome of corded ware concluded that it could be modeled as coming from eastern yamnas but that it also could come from a population more west.
but can we really exclude the possibility that yamnas to the east spoke no pie? what if PIE was broght by caucasus people and then a populaion of yamnas to the west with less CHG moved west?

PIE was being spoken on the steppe, and perhaps in the Northern Caucuses before Yamnaya, in my best estimation. The Corded Ware genotype emerges in the Ukraine before Yamnaya, which is why CWC can't simply be a Yamnaya descendant, but that doesn't mean that the steppe component of CWC isn't very similar to Yamnaya nor does it mean that Yamnaya genotypes didn't admix with CWC culture during it's development. This all surely happened. It's just one of the several deductions that support a pre-yamnaya PIE in the Ukraine and probably on the Volga as well.
 
Yamna, Yamna, Yamna... until you leave this carousel you will do laps eternaly, Yamnayans are a dead end. Look at Andronovo, probably Indo-Iranian, Sintashta, and CWC (Baltoslavic and Germanic?) have in commong a profile made by EEF, CHG, EHG and some WHG. So much now to choose from where PIE popped up... but Mycaeneans had as novelty EHG.

Well, what we DO KNOW for sure is exactly that the EEF, CHG, EHG or WHG that we use as proxies for those ancient Mesolithic & Early Neolithic admixtures DID NOT speak PIE at all. We can discuss where the ancestor language family from where PIE sprung up came from, what was the main genetic makeup of their speakers, but PIE is most definitely a Chalcolithic/Bronze Age language, so it can and should be associated with some culture or neighboring cluster of cultures of that period. And we just can't deny the fact that that combination you talk about was found right in Yamna territory in its heyday, which had a makeup that ranged also exactly from mix of mainly EHG-CHG and, in its western end where it clearly absorbed the former Sredny Stog after 3,500-3,300 BC, to that same EHG-CHG with a bit of EEF and WHG.
 
PIE was being spoken on the steppe, and perhaps in the Northern Caucuses before Yamnaya, in my best estimation. The Corded Ware genotype emerges in the Ukraine before Yamnaya, which is why CWC can't simply be a Yamnaya descendant, but that doesn't mean that the steppe component of CWC isn't very similar to Yamnaya nor does it mean that Yamnaya genotypes didn't admix with CWC culture during it's development. This all surely happened. It's just one of the several deductions that support a pre-yamnaya PIE in the Ukraine and probably on the Volga as well.

The "CWC" or rather "CWC-related" genotype may have emerged before Yamna in Western Ukraine, but the actual appearance of CWC north of the Ukrainian steppe is much, much later than that, especially after 3,000-2,900 BC. The colonization that would've become the CWC horizon does not predate Yamna, nor does it even predate the wide expansion of the Yamna culture in the entire Pontic-Caspian steppe, even in the "heart" of Ukraine. By the time CWC pops up in 2900 BC, the pre-Yamna Sredny Stog culture had virtually disappeared from the area or rather been absorbed by Yamna, but I don't know if we can already establish that that cultural shift was accompanied by immediate and wholesale population replacement to from the Western Yamna structure.
 
The "CWC" or rather "CWC-related" genotype may have emerged before Yamna in Western Ukraine, but the actual appearance of CWC north of the Ukrainian steppe is much, much later than that, especially after 3,000-2,900 BC. The colonization that would've become the CWC horizon does not predate Yamna, nor does it even predate the wide expansion of the Yamna culture in the entire Pontic-Caspian steppe, even in the "heart" of Ukraine. By the time CWC pops up in 2900 BC, the pre-Yamna Sredny Stog culture had virtually disappeared from the area or rather been absorbed by Yamna, but I don't know if we can already establish that that cultural shift was accompanied by immediate and wholesale population replacement to from the Western Yamna structure.

Most people see latter Sredny Stog layers as the origin of CWC and the genetics support this. Going on that I would have to say that this R1a-M417, the oldest yet to date, carrying a CWC genotype, in fact the genotype which by the LMBA covers the entire steppe and Northeast Europe, is speaking IE already.

I think the Southern Ukraine Eneolithic and Maykop should reveal the interface between EHG and Iranian_neo, which will show up as the earliest "bronze age steppe" genotypes along with Maykop samples that show more than 50% CHG in EHG. That's what I really want to see in Maykop for everything to make sense. This has to exist somewhere if pure Caucasians are having sex with EHGs.
 
Most people see latter Sredny Stog layers as the origin of CWC and the genetics support this. Going on that I would have to say that this R1a-M417, the oldest yet to date, carrying a CWC genotype, in fact the genotype which by the LMBA covers the entire steppe and Northeast Europe, is speaking IE already.

I think the Southern Ukraine Eneolithic and Maykop should reveal the interface between EHG and Iranian_neo, which will show up as the earliest "bronze age steppe" genotypes along with Maykop samples that show more than 50% CHG in EHG. That's what I really want to see in Maykop for everything to make sense. This has to exist somewhere if pure Caucasians are having sex with EHGs.

Genetics do point out to an origin of CWC in populations very similar to late Sredny Stog, but still there is a gap of 500-600 years between the latest Sredny Stog and the expansion of CWC in Northeast Europe (2900 BC). CWC certainly did not come directly from a "classic" Sredny Stog population in its heyday, but at best from a late Sredny Stog right during the transition to Western Yamna.

That gap is a LOT of time, more than enough for linguistic shift even in the absence of much genetic replacement, especially because in that exact same period (3500-3000 BC) Yamna was encroaching on and absorbing the Sredny Stog culture, extending its reach as far as Western Ukraine - but we can't yet affirm for sure that that Yamna expansion also meant a wholesale population replacement in Ukraine, annihilating all the groups, with their distinctive genetic makeup, that could've become the ancestor emigrants who formed CWC after 3000 BC.

Just think of how Turkic language was absorbed by Western Steppe peoples that are still genetically overwhelmingly West Eurasian and actually, most probably, overwhelmingly Scythian-like, so much that the spread of Turkic-speaking peoples to the west wasn't necessarily accompanied by much if any "Proto-Turkic admixture". The cultural expansion of Yamna, like Turks, didn't necessarily mean that all the tribes they absorbed ceased to exist even if they changed part of their traditional culture and shifted to another language. That would've been especially easy to Late Sredny Stog >>> Early Yamna people, who may have already spoken similar languages.

We need to make a distinction between Sredny Stog-related autosomal makeup and Y-DNA (Sredny Stog genetic structure, let's say it) and fully fledged Sredny Stog culture, presumably still before intense Yamna influence/gradual acculturation.

I don't think it is unlikely at all, actually quite the opposite, very probable that Sredny Stog spoke some kind of PIE dialect or even language, but due to those chronological reasons I'm not so sure that "the" Late Common PIE, that gave us modern descendants like Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian (and any possible CWC-derived IE branch), was already spoken in Sredny Stog, not just one of the early dialects of PIE (or even a small IE language family that was superseded by the expansion of latter daughter branches).
 

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