Central and South Asian DNA Paper

[holderlin]

Genetics do point out to an origin of CWC in populations very similar to late Sredny Stog, but still there is a gap of 500-600 years between the latest Sredny Stog and the expansion of CWC in Northeast Europe (2900 BC). CWC certainly did not come directly from a "classic" Sredny Stog population in its heyday, but at best from a late Sredny Stog right during the transition to Western Yamna.

Yes, but still having ancestors who were distinct from Yamnaya.

That gap is a LOT of time, more than enough for linguistic shift even in the absence of much genetic replacement, especially because in that exact same period (3500-3000 BC) Yamna was encroaching on and absorbing the Sredny Stog culture, extending its reach as far as Western Ukraine - but we can't yet affirm for sure that that Yamna expansion also meant a wholesale population replacement in Ukraine, annihilating all the groups, with their distinctive genetic makeup, that could've become the ancestor emigrants who formed CWC after 3000 BC.

Just think of how Turkic language was absorbed by Western Steppe peoples that are still genetically overwhelmingly West Eurasian and actually, most probably, overwhelmingly Scythian-like, so much that the spread of Turkic-speaking peoples to the west wasn't necessarily accompanied by much if any "Proto-Turkic admixture". The cultural expansion of Yamna, like Turks, didn't necessarily mean that all the tribes they absorbed ceased to exist even if they changed part of their traditional culture and shifted to another language. That would've been especially easy to Late Sredny Stog >>> Early Yamna people, who may have already spoken similar languages.

We need to make a distinction between Sredny Stog-related autosomal makeup and Y-DNA (Sredny Stog genetic structure, let's say it) and fully fledged Sredny Stog culture, presumably still before intense Yamna influence/gradual acculturation.

I don't think it is unlikely at all, actually quite the opposite, very probable that Sredny Stog spoke some kind of PIE dialect or even language, but due to those chronological reasons I'm not so sure that "the" Late Common PIE, that gave us modern descendants like Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian (and any possible CWC-derived IE branch), was already spoken in Sredny Stog, not just one of the early dialects of PIE (or even a small IE language family that was superseded by the expansion of latter daughter branches).

I'm not saying that whatever Yamnaya was speaking didn't at least influence the resulting language of CWC.

To be clear I think that early forms of PIE were spoken from the Ukraine to the Volga (Urals?) during the Eneolithic if not the Neolithic given the continuity. Probably from the Neolithic honestly. The cultures maintain very close relationships with each other over a vast swath of land since from the Neolithic (Dneiper Donets and Samara) to the late bronze age. The notion of them sharing a common language is likely, in fact this is supported by looking at the steppe in late bronze age/early Iron age where they all likely spoke Iranian.

Something unique was happening on the steppe with horse domestication and stock breeding and I don't think it's a coincidence that V88 (from neolithic Ukraine) is associated with cattle herders. Perhaps the spread of V88 out of Ukraine were IE speakers initially.

Whatever, I'm over it.

 

[halfalp]

Actually, it is not "classical" Late PIE with its traditional "package" of horse, wheel and so on that we're talking about IF the CHG/Iranian-related part of the PIE speaking peoples came from around Lake Urmia. PIE is in any case dated to well after 5,000 BC, especially if you're talking about the PIE-minus-Anatolian, LPIE stage. These would be just a significant part of the genetic and most probably also cultural ancestry of the LPIE speakers and also quite possibly the carriers of the language that was the direct ancestor of PIE, but not ALREADY PIE by 5,500 BC in Iran. We can't lump these ancient languages and cultures together regardless of whether you're talking about 5,500 BC, 4,000 BC or 3,000 BC. I think nobody - at least nobody who has a good grasp of the chronology of those cultures - is asserting that PIE as the latest common dialect of all the extant IE branches was already being spoken in Early Neolithic Kurdistan. That's not the hypothesis that's being discussed as at least plausible according to the latest evidences. To give you a more recent, historic example, if we're investigating the spread of Spanish in Latin America we'd find an expansion around 1500-1600, an origin of the language in the northern part of Iberia (not from where the bulk of the immigrants came), but an immediate ancestor of the language in a very different region and with a very distinct people (genetically and also in many ways culturally), the Latin speakers of Central Italy. That's how dynamic, mobile and changing languages (as cultures) are.

I'm just saying what i read here and there on this forum. There was a concensus that Horses where domesticated in the eurasian steppe for some time, but according to the hypothesis put forward by some only about PIE origin, now horse can come from Armenia or Iberia or even East Iran depending on. Same with the wheel, we have physical proof that wheel was already in central europe at the time of yamnaya, but because of the CHG component in yamna, some people saying that the wheel came from the Uruk immigrants and not from neolithic europe ( wich might be true if we look at the date of the central european first wheel that could fit with an early yamnaya migration ). A lot of people push their view according to where they thinks PIE came from. Apart of that i'm ok with all what you said.

 

[halfalp]

That's because R1b-V88 is found all over the Levant and spread from there to Africa, and because the highest diversity of old R1b clades was reported to be in the Middle East. Both African R1b-V88 and Steppe R1b-M269 are/were cattle herders and cattle were domesticated halfway between the Levant (V88) and South Caucasus (M269), so my logic is that they must have a common origin there.

What I did not see coming was that there would be R1b-P297 and R1b-V88 in the Balkans (Iron Gates), Ukraine and Latvia in the Mesolithic. For me R1b was only in the Middle East in the Mesolithic and domesticated cattle around the modern border of Syria and Turkey, then moved to the South Caucasus, then crossed to the Steppe. I underestimated the propensity of Mesolithic HG to travel long distances and settled a bit everywhere. If the West African E1b1a in Mesolithic Iran in this paper isn't a mistake, that is another remarkable example.

But let's be fair, it's difficult to imagine that L754, L388, V88 and P297 all ancestral to M269 and all found in epipaleolithic and mesolithic europe all migrate from western asia into europe and that some of the V-88 and P297 staying in west asia has become M269 wich himself has migrate into europe it's not fair to say " who think M269 would be north of the caucasus " I'm start to rethink about the all R1b steppe but cant really think to any pattern. This south caucasus sample is actually pretty irrelevant if you think about it, and as holderlin said, it's gives more problem than resolve questions. Do we have any anatolian mesolithic y-dna sample ? If epipaleolithic or mesolithic anatolia turns to not be R1b the only proposition is that some early M269 have migrate from the pontic steppe to the south caucasus, but we also need to see if that sample is really 5900-5000 bc wich is actually a weird date for an south caucasus Z2013.

 

[Olympus Mons]

Regarding Hajji Firuz I2327 (R1b1a1a2a2/K1a17a).

There is a sample, called OC1_Meso (r1b/K1) from G González-Fortes 2017, and another I4081 (R1b1a/H13), another girl I4582 (K1) from Mathieson 2017. All of them ar e Iron gates, Mesolithic HG from a Romania culture called Ostrovul Corbului. -- 1000 years later their stock shows in Hajji Firuz as individual I2327, R1B-L23-Z2103....

So, what is the story?
Most of the proliferous r1b Stock ready to mutate was in Lower Danube, in Iron gates, but specially in the lower Danube separating Romania and Bulgaria by 7000-6300bc.
Places like Ostrobul Corbului, Schela Cladovei (south Romania bordering Bulgaria) a bit north are it. right there. The region seems to have suffered heavily with the 8.2 kiloyear event, so archaeologically there is a gap in Habitation in the broader region from the period 6300-6000bc. Just Lepenski Vir seems to have missed that gap of three Hundred years. When the region is repopulated, and its noticeable in the Mathieson 2017 supplement excel, the region is full of G2a and a more typical Mtdna. Most probably the arrival of Starčevo-Körös-Criş. But the just previous samples are really mostly R (and R1b proper).

By 6300bc, agriculture was just arriving to this area also coming from the south. So contacts with farmers were happening. Samples even show these cline, as Schela Cladovei show a very Hunter Gatherer Mtdna U5a and U5b… but Ostrobul, to the south, shows mainly K, a more farmer Mtdna.

I believe one sees their pathway into north Anatolia of these Hunter-gatheres that while moving south throughout the 7^th millennium mixed with farmers and learned a lot about taming agriculture specimens where they mixed with Fikirtepe culture so that arriving to south Caucasus, by 6000bc, they where that fascinating thing called Shulaveri-Shomu.

 

[markozd]

The first appearance of R1b in Europe is concomitant with an increased affinity towards the Near East. I wouldn't get my hopes up for an European origin of the M269. Macrogroup P1 wasn't really around before the Late Upper Paleolithic, it came from the east at some point.

 

[Angela]

Modeling mania is in full swing.

From what I can tell, the actual amount of "steppe" in South Asia is much lower than had been predicted. Northwestern Brahmins have between 10-20%. It goes down to about 14% in the warrior caste, and then drops off a cliff. Most Indians have none. Even in Central Asia, the reality seems to be about 25% to a max of about 30% in Tajiks, way off the predictive modeling of 50%.

So, is it Greece redux?

Not implying, by the way, that it didn't bring language change and cultural changes. I'm just saying any talk of massive replacement in India as in Southern Europe was probably way off base.

We'll see what happens with the Z2103 sample. I want to see what the carbon dating says. More importantly, I want to see if there's a trail north onto the steppe by R1b or if it was another y dna that just drifted out. I'm assuming that will be in the Caucasus paper.

 

[Olympus Mons]

...I'm assuming that will be in the Caucasus paper.

What Caucasus paper?

 

[Ygorcs]

But let's be fair, it's difficult to imagine that L754, L388, V88 and P297 all ancestral to M269 and all found in epipaleolithic and mesolithic europe all migrate from western asia into europe and that some of the V-88 and P297 staying in west asia has become M269 wich himself has migrate into europe it's not fair to say " who think M269 would be north of the caucasus " I'm start to rethink about the all R1b steppe but cant really think to any pattern. This south caucasus sample is actually pretty irrelevant if you think about it, and as holderlin said, it's gives more problem than resolve questions. Do we have any anatolian mesolithic y-dna sample ? If epipaleolithic or mesolithic anatolia turns to not be R1b the only proposition is that some early M269 have migrate from the pontic steppe to the south caucasus, but we also need to see if that sample is really 5900-5000 bc wich is actually a weird date for an south caucasus Z2013.

I don't understand why you say that "If epipaleolithic or mesolithic anatolia turns to not be R1b the only proposition is that some early M269 have migrate from the pontic steppe to the south caucasus". This R1b-M269 sample is not from Anatolia proper, it's much closer to the Caucasus, the Caspian coast of Iran and the Zagros mountains than to Anatolia. Especially considering that it is autosomally mostly related to Iranian_Neolithic and certainly closer to CHG than to Anatolia_Neolithic, then I definitely wouldn't look (well, I actually would, but it wouldn't be me priority) for its antecedents in Anatolia_Mesolithic, but in the Iranian Plateau, Caucasus or even, who knows, ultimately, well before this mid/late Neolithic sample, Central Asia as Johanna Nichols proposed for the earliest origin of pre-PIE communities. Also, R1b-V88 is not directly ancestral to M269, so it didn't need to have been part of this history at all, it could've set apart and gone to have its own historic journey well before R1b-M269 existed. All it takes is that some R1b-P297, many centuries after V88 first appeared, diverged from the others. It don't see why that couldn't have happened in the northern part of West Asia, which is in any case very close to Europe especially if you consider that until ~7000-6000 BC the Black Sea was probably smaller and crossing to Europe was even easier than it is now.

 

[MOESAN]

old extracts I picked from other foruma or blogs - alas I did not write the origin of the former paragraph - it speaks of links between Indus and Mesopotamia -

Based on this distribution of values, it would appear from our preliminary analysis that almost half of the individuals sampled from the Harappa cemetery have isotope values outside the local baseline (0.7158-0.7189). Most of these individuals have values below the Harappa range. In addition, there are at least three non-local individuals with higher values, including one with an extremely isotope ratio that cannot be from the Harappa region. A more detailed discussion of the Harappa samples will be presented in a future publication on the Harappa cemetery, but it is clear that many of what appear to be local individuals at Harappa are females and they are associated in burial with nearby males who are clearly not local. These preliminary patterns require further testing before major conclusions can be proposed, but it does suggest that they represent a unique population of people from multiple regions of the Indus valley or beyond.​

Journal of Archaeological Science
Volume 40, Issue 5, May 2013, Pages 2286–2297

A new approach to tracking connections between the Indus Valley and Mesopotamia: initial results of strontium isotope analyses from Harappa and Ur

J. Mark Kenoyer et al.

Exchange and interaction between early state-level societies in Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley during the 3rd millennium BC has been documented for some time. The study of this interaction has been dominated by the analysis of artifacts such as carnelian beads and marine shell, along with limited textual evidence. With the aid of strontium, carbon, and oxygen isotopes, it is now possible to develop more direct means for determining the presence of non-local people in both regions. This preliminary study of tooth enamel from individuals buried at Harappa and at the Royal Cemetery of Ur, indicates that it should be feasible to identify Harappans in Mesopotamia. It is also possible to examine the mobility of individuals from communities within the greater Indus Valley region.

 

[johen]

old extracts I picked from other foruma or blogs - alas I did not write the origin of the former paragraph - it speaks of links between Indus and Mesopotamia -

Based on this distribution of values, it would appear from our preliminary analysis that almost half of the individuals sampled from the Harappa cemetery have isotope values outside the local baseline (0.7158-0.7189). Most of these individuals have values below the Harappa range. In addition, there are at least three non-local individuals with higher values, including one with an extremely isotope ratio that cannot be from the Harappa region. A more detailed discussion of the Harappa samples will be presented in a future publication on the Harappa cemetery, but it is clear that many of what appear to be local individuals at Harappa are females and they are associated in burial with nearby males who are clearly not local. These preliminary patterns require further testing before major conclusions can be proposed, but it does suggest that they represent a unique population of people from multiple regions of the Indus valley or beyond.​

Journal of Archaeological Science
Volume 40, Issue 5, May 2013, Pages 2286–2297

A new approach to tracking connections between the Indus Valley and Mesopotamia: initial results of strontium isotope analyses from Harappa and Ur

J. Mark Kenoyer et al.

Exchange and interaction between early state-level societies in Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley during the 3rd millennium BC has been documented for some time. The study of this interaction has been dominated by the analysis of artifacts such as carnelian beads and marine shell, along with limited textual evidence. With the aid of strontium, carbon, and oxygen isotopes, it is now possible to develop more direct means for determining the presence of non-local people in both regions. This preliminary study of tooth enamel from individuals buried at Harappa and at the Royal Cemetery of Ur, indicates that it should be feasible to identify Harappans in Mesopotamia. It is also possible to examine the mobility of individuals from communities within the greater Indus Valley region.

Problem is burial type: lots of supine burials. And I don't know where prone-positioned burials came from. Anyway, I think the supine burial type originated in west siberian HG. And their language seemed to be mixed to make some ural/altai people to be confused to think dravidian language is related with the ural/altai. Moreover, it seems to me that the west siberian gene factor made old world civilization to have some similarity of mesoamerican civilization. maybe sumer also or maybe a main cause of Nostratic languages.

"The excavation yielded 53 burials, six of which were unearthed in 2014-15; the remaining in the 2015-16 digging season. The necropolis, dated to between 2,500 BC and 2,000 BC, or the Mature Harappan Period, sprawls under a 1 hectare patch of land that has long been under cultivation by present-day residents of Rakhigarhi ...

Typical cases — single bodies buried in supine position inside a plain pit — outnumber atypical ones, which have brick-lined graves, multiple bodies, or prone-positioned burials... Of the 46 sets of skeletal remains, 37 were subjected to anthropological examination and DNA tests. Seventeen were determined to be over 18 years of age (adults); eight were “sub-adults”, that is, younger than 18; and the ages of 12 could not be determined.
Two of the sub-adults were children aged between 2 and 5 years. Of the 17 whose sex could be determined, seven were found to be males, and 10 were females... The DNA was extracted using a new technique that involves rupturing the petrous bone ... the investigation involved, “1) gross anthropological study (determination of sex and age, identification of any pathological signs in bones, forensic investigation for race determination, etc.); 2) paleoparasitological study (analysis of soil sediments on hipbones, determination of any presence of parasite eggs, drawing of tentative conclusions on parasitic infection of Harappan people); 3) aDNA mitochondrial, Y-chromosomal, autosomal and stable-isotope analyses (obtainment of information on maternal and paternal lineages); 4) first-ever facial reconstruction of approximately 4,500-year-old Harappan person (based on DNA and forensic data…).” ... the remains bore no signs of charring, thus ruling out cremation as a practice ...
Brick-lined burials (as opposed to plain pits) were among the most elaborately constructed graves, and possibly implied a high social or ritual status ... Significantly, every individual found in a brick-lined pit was determined to be female, leading the study authors to ask whether these women played a special role in the community ...

Prone-position bodies, a rarity in archaelogical finds, are usually held to be those that the community did not like. However, in Rakhigarhi, these individuals seem to have got elaborate burials with numerous grave goods. Two burials had been done on a bed of pottery, which may be indicative of high social status"

 

[halfalp]

The first appearance of R1b in Europe is concomitant with an increased affinity towards the Near East. I wouldn't get my hopes up for an European origin of the M269. Macrogroup P1 wasn't really around before the Late Upper Paleolithic, it came from the east at some point.

Yes, but what you say is litteraly that the M269 fro this paper evolved with his ancestor without any of the R1b earlier from europe. Wich would be funny that just one sample being relative to so much history.

 

[halfalp]

You people think too much, indo-european languages is a reality, wathever the amount of scythians R1a in antic north indian or not. We have the perspective to have europe mostly completely sample, so we know that indo-european language doesn't came from India for exemple. That said it doesn't mean that we already know what exact population participate to the indo-aryan formation. What we know for sur, is that indo-aryan languages are intrusive in their respective territory.

 

[johen]

Shulaveri-Shomu culture

The first appearance of R1b in Europe is concomitant with an increased affinity towards the Near East. I wouldn't get my hopes up for an European origin of the M269. Macrogroup P1 wasn't really around before the Late Upper Paleolithic, it came from the east at some point.

Do you know whether any kurgan of ancient west asian culture like Shulaveri-Shomu culture or kura alex has the following yamna burial structure? It looks different from what I has thought til now.

Yamnaya groups and tumuli west of the Black Sea V
olker Heyd *

Abstract
Ten thousand round tumuli characterize the plains around the lower Danube, its tributaries and the central Carpathian basin. The very origin of their erection goes often back to the 4th and the 3rd millennium B.C. About 500 excavated tumuli from the present countries of Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia and Hungary testify to their constructors: populations of the “Yamnaya Culture”, known also under the terms “Pit Grave Culture” or “Ochre Grave Culture”. Typical are primary single graves in rectangular pits dug into the underground before the erection of the tumuli, and secondary single graves in the tumulus filling often accompanied by a further tumulus heightening. The position of the body is either supine with flexed legs or a crouched position on the side; in any case, usually orientated in a west-east direction. Intensive strewing of ochre powder, textiles, furs and mats for the pit walls and floors, and wooden beams to cover it, are further characteristics, along with a general lack of accompanying grave gifts.

As far as I know, this kind of burial layers is related with central asia ANE culture.) I think even maykop kurgab would not have this kind of structure, considering that archaeologist does not connect steppe culture to maykop culture.

looks like one mound kurgan has two layers of this, but more deeper pit:

http://siberiantimes.com/science/ca...500-years-old-with-links-to-native-americans/

 

[Angela]

Dienekes has posted on the paper. He's still a "kurganist" of the conventional variety, but at least he doesn't ignore the elephant in the room like the usual suspects:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2018/04/r1ans-still-at-large-or-story-of-india.html

"Yet, proponents of AIT (who have a non-trivial overlap with R1an enthusiasts) are also scratching their heads because of the 27 ancient South Asian males from South Asia studied in the preprint there is exactly one R1a, who also happened to live after the time of the Buddha and not during the Bronze Age."


The amounts of "steppe" ancestry in them is also unimpressive, to say the least, not only in the Bronze Age, but even in the Iron Age. Heck, as I mentioned above it's rather unimpressive even in modern Indians, much less than predicted. (Why on earth was the Jat sample removed? That would be a great one to check for additional Scythian.")

He goes on to say:
"Perhaps the R1a Indo-Aryans did come to South Asia in a conventional AIT time frame and they haven't been sampled. Or, maybe they were, indeed, there, but were not R1ans. Or, maybe both sides missed the bigger story which is that the Indo-Aryans (so closely associated with India today) were simply not there as early as people have thought. "

What he doesn't mention is that perhaps this wasn't the route, which I proposed above, but on further reflection, I think this is highly unlikely. The Swat valley is exactly what the "kurgan" theory, most recently and famously as proposed by David Anthony, has always posited to be IE central.

Dienekes adds that perhaps they arrived much earlier, in the time period that used to be proposed, which I didn't consider, but still, why then so few of them in the Swat Valley?

We've raised the possibility that Indo-Aryans arrived much later. There seems to be a rumor that the authors of the paper are going to release more samples. Perhaps he got wind of it. Given the furor over the fact that their conclusions don't really seem to flow from the published data, perhaps they are going to release samples which they were saving for a later date?

The other possibility that Dienekes raises is that perhaps another y lineage brought some "steppe" to the Bronze Age period from which the samples come, separate from whatever later R1a brought. The obvious question then is, which y lineage? One present in the sample or not? From where did they come?

The only thing of which I'm certain is that the story is much more complicated that we have been led to believe.

I also wonder if Reich, in order not to rock too many boats, is being too deferential to Anthony, so as to not have him pull out.

I find very little interesting at anthrogenica on this or anything else lately. There are still a few, very few, good posters at Eurogenes. This is one post that I think is interesting:

"We already have a pretty large amount of samples from the steppe with R1a-Z93, but all of them (AFAIK) belong to Z2123 subclade, not the sister L657, which is the big one in India.

If Andronovo was 99% R1a-Z2123, it's pretty much impossible that a big impact in the Y-chromosome (a la Western Europe) happened, or we should see Z2123 as the main lineage in India. So if L657 came along with Z2123 (which looks reasonable), it was a very minor lineage that couldn't have much impact initially. It just happened to grow within India during teh last 3500 years. That could have happened in any way, including in a population that was 90% IVC derived, both autosomally and in the Y-chromosome."

Of course, these new samples may carry the right y Dna lineage. It just arrived later than anyone thought.

Given that it's so late, might it in fact have been brought by Scythians?

I have lots of questions, but no answers.

 

[LeBrok]

Looking to all of this, perhaps IE invasions into Iran/Persia happened at the beginning of Iron Age and were done by Scythian tribes. Hens, similarity of languages. After all, after BA collapse there was perfect time to invade and conquer. Movement of Steppe Nations down south (and also west) is often caused by harsh cold weather periods in central Asia. This happened at BA collapse event. These economic collapses also causes informational blackouts, known as Dark Ages, and extremely little information survives of whatever happened at this time. However, it doesn't mean that nothing happened then. Actually on contre, lots is happening at these periods, more than ever, and new maps of nations and languages have to be made afterwards.

Having said that, there is still a possibility that proto IE language was a language of Iranian Farmers, who went to the Steppe to teach farming and new language to locals there.

 

[halfalp]

Might be that Andronovo ( wich is an amazingly big territory ) was a yamna-like culture with multiple regional culture and that one R1a-Z93 elite in that culture explode to become the major indo-aryan lineage but it's not necessarily the case for iran and indo-iranian languages. Just imagine Andronovo like yamna with R1b-Z2103 and L-23, P297, or even other clades. The story for the indo-europeanization of iran and india might be more complicate and narrow that we previously thought.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

I find very little interesting at anthrogenica on this or anything else lately. There are still a few, very few, good posters at Eurogenes. This is one post that I think is interesting:"We already have a pretty large amount of samples from the steppe with R1a-Z93, but all of them (AFAIK) belong to Z2123 subclade, not the sister L657, which is the big one in India.If Andronovo was 99% R1a-Z2123, it's pretty much impossible that a big impact in the Y-chromosome (a la Western Europe) happened, or we should see Z2123 as the main lineage in India. So if L657 came along with Z2123 (which looks reasonable), it was a very minor lineage that couldn't have much impact initially. It just happened to grow within India during teh last 3500 years. That could have happened in any way, including in a population that was 90% IVC derived, both autosomally and in the Y-chromosome."Of course, these new samples may carry the right y Dna lineage. It just arrived later than anyone thought.Given that it's so late, might it in fact have been brought by Scythians?I have lots of questions, but no answers.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y3/
I believe R-Y3 could have originated somewhere between Caucasus and NE Iran and expanded mostly with Iranic speakers from 'West Asia'. Herodotus says that there were six Median tribes, one of them were the Magi.

The existence of a priestly tribe among the 'Arians' probably played a role. That doesn't have to mean that this haplogroup existed in the PIE homeland, wherever it was. The existence in a priestly tribe is probably good enough to explain what we see with Brahmins.

Concerning, the date Indo-Iranians arrived in India I asked once for a terminus ante quem in Davidski's blog but he avoided to answer. He has made many posts about where R1a1 originated, but no posts about what it would mean if it appears too late in South Asia.

(I stated my opinion but Underhill seemed to have believed that it could have existed in IVC. If it was already there that early it would be easier to explain why it appears also in Indian tribals)

 

[halfalp]

But nobody bring back into question the origin of R1a-Z93 into the steppe here or i miss something from the study ?

 

[halfalp]

I know that people and myself included ( i dont like to play the conspiracist ) gonna hate what i just say but even if the paper doesn't contradicte the steppe hypothesis for some reason it create a controversy over amateur archeogeneticsts. First that one R1b-Z2103 sample ( exactly the major one of yamnaya while all of his parent are in europe ) hypothetically date in the perfect range of time ( 5900-5500 BC ) for an south entering into the steppe and secondly the lake of R1a in iron age indian sub-continent and the clear voluntee from Reich to push both agenda that R1b-Z2103 and R1a-Z93 where respectivally in north-east iran and north-west iran before their propagation seems weird and inclined. It seems pretty clear that R1a is the major haplogroup from Steppe_MLBA and this paper shows Steppe_MLBA in Central Asia. A lot of rambling for a pre-print, people that was staying quit with the Southeastern europe paper and Baltic one resurface because they see an opportunity or lack. Very controversial, i hope Harvard Med didn't put some political stance into this paper, seems unlikely but still.

Edit: If i understand completely Reich's point he thinks that R1b-Z2103 sample bring PIE in the steppe from a previous iran neolithic language. So Satem languages came in Iran and India by Iran Neolithic and Steppe pastoralists of the R1a groupe but with a centum language replace most of the paleolithic and neolithic male lineage at some time. So do he consider Balto-Slavic as an importation from R1a scythians keeping satem language in India and going north to the land of their ancestor ?

Reich seems a very compliant guy he first says that CWC and Yamnaya where very violent and dramatic for the previous male demographic and finish by saying " stay open " to immigration. I wonder if in the futur, some people gonna actually study the bronze age history and the modern one, and taking the conclusion that " if races exists well women doesn't have any race ".

 

[Olympus Mons]

I know that people and myself included ( i dont like to play the conspiracist ) gonna hate what i just say but even if the paper doesn't contradicte the steppe hypothesis for some reason it create a controversy over amateur archeogeneticsts........ women doesn't have any race ".

Halfalp,
A couple comments on your comments.
Rambling is because of a couple facts:

1. Finally, after a long period of simplistic views, every new paper with new samples gives a twist to the story…. as expected. Many of us have warned that the narratives were being made with only a couple dots to make the lines, so a more complex one would arise.
2. The new narrative from Krauses, Haak and Reich“s” of this academia world , is in the direction of a more mature view of space and time. There was a lot of people. And that Lots of people with time (plenty of time) moved around. So, there will be a large amount of clines -- like the new Western Siberia cline that might be making some of the Yamnaya to be fake).
3. Examples: hypothetical. we need to have samples from kelteminar culture and if there wasn’t plenty of EHG “look a like” component and later mixing with more CHG /Iran N in the south shores of Caspian and have influences in the populations of places like Azerbaijan that might not be exactly the same as the population in Hajji Firuz or other more southern regions. Its these clines that might change the story… remember the Caspian and the black sea were smaller. There are plains that today are under water, circumferences by mountains on the other side. So, population might be slightly different ?
4. Are we sure, Shulaveri didn’t have, when migrating to Steppe in 4900 bc a “steppe” component because some of the people they mixed in Azrbaijan side already showed EHG or something similar? – Interesting times coming soon, now that the “gods” of Adna discovered south Caucasus.
5. Or exactly the same in places that are black spots or black holes, like Bulgaria, Romania and moldova where due to probably economic conditions in the last century, archeology never really went that far. So there is lots to learn from those. We know that places around had lots of R1b and we know nothing of what happened there in the 5^th , 4^th millennia. And it might turnout very important for the understanding of population in space and time. – Like, who is to say we wont find R1b L23 (Xall) there?