Archaeology as a political weapon

[Angela]

This is the kind of stuff that drives me bonkers. Yes, Jerusalem is not just the "City of David", but it was the Jewish capital for a long time.

Just freaking acknowledge that both of you have been there for a long time!

https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Archeology-in-Israel-as-a-political-weapon-515922

Now genetics is being used for political purposes too. Look at India: it's not just some Indians playing games. It's also the internet Nordicist "steppe enthusiasts" salivating at the thought that people related to them were conquerors.

The whole thing is nauseating.

 

[Angela]

What is wrong with some of you people? Keep a civil tongue in your head.

Just when I thought all the idiots were gone or chastened.

I have no idea who you are or what your issue is, but not everything is about you.

Watch yourself or you're out of here.

 

[Ygorcs]

This is the kind of stuff that drives me bonkers. Yes, Jerusalem is not just the "City of David", but it was the Jewish capital for a long time.

Just freaking acknowledge that both of you have been there for a long time!

https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Archeology-in-Israel-as-a-political-weapon-515922

Now genetics is being used for political purposes too. Look at India: it's not just some Indians playing games. It's also the internet Nordicist "steppe enthusiasts" salivating at the thought that people related to them were conquerors.

The whole thing is nauseating.

What's particularly strange about those Nordicisists is that the vast majority of those I meet are not Russians or Ukrainians from the steppe, but Scandinavians, Germans, Hungarians, even Britons. Well, well, well, aren't they in the very same situation as Indians: their lands were conquered by steppe immigrants/conquerors - who were foreigners -, assimilated and acculturated in a long process of mixing with the natives? What, does everything change just because the percentage of steppe-derived ancestry in them is larger? For me it doesn't change the essence of the historical process. And in fact we can be fairly sure, putting genetics aside for a moment, that Indians have preserved the customs, beliefs and traditions of those conquerors/immigrants much better than their own peoples. So, I don't understand that kind of triumphalist behavior. It's not like the steppe peoples were indigenous to their countries, nor are they unmixed steppe peoples, but a native+foreigner melting pot like so many others.

 

[davef]

Why are they even called indo European when their genetic makeup isn't even from Europe? If a band of Chinese took their place and mixed with the farmer+western hunter gatherer people, would they be considered European? Not that being European matters to me, it's just me finding the label somewhat odd.

 

[Ygorcs]

Why are they even called indo European when their genetic makeup isn't even from Europe? If a band of Chinese took their place and mixed with the farmer+western hunter gatherer people, would they be considered European? Not that being European matters to me, it's just me finding the label somewhat odd.

Do you mean the steppe pastoralists? I think it's fair to call them "European" in the sense that they lived in Europe - well, the eastern doorsteps from Europe to Central Asia, but still - and derived much of their ancestry (~50%) from a kind of ancestry that had a long previous history in Europe (EHG). In any case, I think the use of the term "European" should essentially be geographic: if a certain people lived within the usually accepeted borders of Europe, they're European, but that does not mean that all European peoples, especially in the past, were one homogeneous group. EEF were European, just like WHG or EHG, but that does not mean they shared much more than with outsiders. After all, Europe is, strictly speaking, nothing but the northwestern part of Eurasia, without some, but no actually insurmountable barrier. Europe, like the Middle East, was a pretty heterogeneous place until the Iron Age at least. Europe as more than a geographic concept, as some kind of common cultural community is a quite recent phenomenon, actually more related to Graeco-Roman influence and especially Christendom than to anything else.

 

[davef]

Thanks and you know what? I often like to keep things simple and say we're all African. Humanity started in Africa, not in Eurasia or anywhere else. I also believe that the true Europeans are the (non human) animal and plant species that originated there. Crazy as it sounds, this makes more sense to me.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Thanks and you know what? I often like to keep things simple and say we're all African. Humanity started in Africa, not in Eurasia or anywhere else. I also believe that the true Europeans are the (non human) animal and plant species that originated there. Crazy as it sounds, this makes more sense to me.

even that is not sure any more
in his book, David Reich himself presents an alternative theory that modern humans some 300 ka started as backmigration of archaic humans from Eurasia to Africa

for myself, the turning point was the onset of the Upper Paleolithic, when modern humans started to outcompete archaïc humans with new tools developped in SW Asia some 50 ka

anyway if everyone would start to claim the lands where his/her forfathers would have roamed, there would be a permanent worldwide war
but there are also many other ideologies claiming superiority, who have nothing to do with ancestry

 

[Silesian]

What's particularly strange about those Nordicisists is that the vast majority of those I meet are not Russians or Ukrainians from the steppe, but Scandinavians, Germans, Hungarians, even Britons. Well, well, well, aren't they in the very same situation as Indians: their lands were conquered by steppe immigrants/conquerors - who were foreigners -, assimilated and acculturated in a long process of mixing with the natives?..................

I see your flag is Brazil[Portugese speaking -ethnic melting pot and or salad bowl-depending on whom you talk with]. Where did you meet[as in what community-neighborhood in Brazil] and talk to these groups of Nordicists/Russians/Ukrainians/Scandinavians/Germans/Hungarians/Britons/Indians to make an informed opinion ?

 

[IronSide]

We give Nordicists too much attention, who cares ? we dont talk about afro-centrists as often, they hold the same degree of political influence, which is null.

 

[Ygorcs]

I see your flag is Brazil[Portugese speaking -ethnic melting pot and or salad bowl-depending on whom you talk with]. Where did you meet[as in what community-neighborhood in Brazil] and talk to these groups of Nordicists/Russians/Ukrainians/Scandinavians/Germans/Hungarians/Britons/Indians to make an informed opinion ?

Through the internet as most people here. Oh, and we also have our small but annoying share of racist/Nordicist people who are also usually descendants of Germans or even Italians. They take their references from US and European supremacists groups. It's also a question of pure and simple knowledge about their main pseudo-scientific points, which now rely heavily on the myth of white glorious steppe warriors, and one doesn't need to be a genius to notice that there's something fundamentally illogical in that narrative as they come from (primordially) defeated societies and are in fact descendants not just of conquerors, but also of conquered peoples.

Also, of course the fact I live in a country that is still the result of a recent major admixture event and inter-ethnic mixing makes me very aware of the ludicrousness of trying to set apart from these events that have happened repeatedly throughout history and make wildly crazy fantasies about ethnic/cultural/genetic purity just because some nations' ethnogenesis happened much longer ago and, thus, their mixed and complex origins have long been forgotten.

Aside from that, what I find particularly intriguing is that nobody here questions the legitimacy of some (mainly European or US American) members' opinions and statements based simply on the member's nationality or geographic origin. That's happened 3 or 4 times in less than 1 year since I've started posting in this forum. It's a bit awkward, especially because it's not common, and of course it's also a very weak ad hominem counter-argument. I won't even tell in categorical words what I actually think this subtle difference of treatment indicates about these people...

 

[Silesian]

Through the internet as most people here. Oh, and we also have our small but annoying share of racist/Nordicist people who are also usually descendants of Germans or even Italians. .........

That's odd. My son's best man was from Brazil; and they spent some time together in Brazil after sightseeing in Europe-- taking time from university. I also know Italian/Brazilians, and have met Brazilians in a very casual context on the streets where I live. They share a very different version- than what you post. Do you live in a predominantly European and or gated or heavily guarded community in Brazil ?

 

[davef]

That's odd. My son's best man was from Brazil; and they spent some time together in Brazil after sightseeing in Europe-- taking time from university. I also know Italian/Brazilians, and have met Brazilians in a very casual context on the streets where I live. They share a very different version- than what you post. Do you live in a predominantly European and or gated or heavily guarded community in Brazil ?

he met them through the internet

 

[Silesian]

he met them through the internet

Yes that is true.
Here is a question for you. Many places in North America and South America used to have indigenous people living in harmony with the land.
United Nations had a vote for indigenous people.
https://www.un.org/development/desa...tion-on-the-rights-of-indigenous-peoples.html

If ancient remains of such people were found in a place like Philedelphia and other places; would it be alright to allow them to move back to there traditional native lands and live in harmony with nature once again like their ancestors?

 

[Ygorcs]

That's odd. My son's best man was from Brazil; and they spent some time together in Brazil after sightseeing in Europe-- taking time from university. I also know Italian/Brazilians, and have met Brazilians in a very casual context on the streets where I live. They share a very different version- than what you post. Do you live in a predominantly European and or gated or heavily guarded community in Brazil ?

Fortunately not (I mean on the "gated or heavily guarded community", not the "predominantly European" part, lol). But I know they exist. What did they tell you? That racists do not exist here? If it's something along these lines, it's a myth, a well protected myth because racists in Brazil tend to be very low profile, and not very vocal as in other places. As I said, they're in fact a tiny but annoying minority of people, mainly concentrated in the South of Brazil and São Paulo, which are simultaneously the wealthiest (and thus there is as always those who think that the poorer, less white populations must be inherently inferior and are a "burden to the nation") and the most predominantly European parts of Brazil. That's why there are some Nordicist people, they're a pain in the ass, but are actuall very few in numbers.

I fortunately have avoided to have personal and frequent contacts with any of them, but I have met some, especially on the internet, where people usually say what they don't feel they should in public lest they damage their reputation and are seen as weird bigots (in Brazil, at least, that's all too common: most of the awful opinions you find on the internet wouldn't be spoken out and loud face to face, because there's much social emphasis on being kind and agreeable, even if you have to hide what you really think - in that case, I think we're better off without having to listen to those creepy people, indeed). In any case, you're much more likely to find the real racists of Brazil in online forums than in a casual conversation at the office or school, because they usually avoid being labeled as weirdos or even criminals (outspoken racism is a crime in Brazil).

 

[Salento]

Yes that is true.
Here is a question for you. Many places in North America and South America used to have indigenous people living in harmony with the land.
United Nations had a vote for indigenous people.
https://www.un.org/development/desa...tion-on-the-rights-of-indigenous-peoples.html

If ancient remains of such people were found in a place like Philedelphia and other places; would it be alright to allow them to move back to there traditional native lands and live in harmony with nature once again like their ancestors?

The Native Americans were NOT living in Harmony with each other before the Arrival of the Europeans.
They too went to war with each other.
Even today there are tribes that claim the same land stating that was their’s and that they lost it to another tribe.

“... According to Keeley, among the indigenous peoples of the Americas, only 13% did not engage in wars with their neighbors at least once per year. ...”

“ ... For example, at Crow Creek in South Dakota, archaeologists found a mass grave containing the remains of more than 500 men, women, and children who had been slaughtered, scalped, and mutilated during an attack on their village a century and a half before Columbus's arrival (ca. 1325 AD). ... ”


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Before_Civilization

 

[LABERIA]

he met them through the internet

Or in vacation in Europe.
Have you ever been to Europe? I suggest you Greece, beautiful country.

 

[halfalp]

The thing is, i believe we should let everybody express their passions. If you push aside someone because of his beliefs or convictions, you gonna create somebody who gonna give a damn about the others. In that case, i don't really like to think in good or bad, people needs symbolism, some gonna worship some ancient celts matter, others some ancient greek matter, others some confucianist matter, religious of all kind matter etc. If you force somebody to think in a certain way, you gonna make more harm than nothing else, people have to put their ego and their sense of rightness beside when they want to think in humanity as a whole. If a Swedish guy wants to worship ancient vikings culture and nordic mythology and that he sees both as an ideal, he should have the right to do so. I've learn in my life that, the perfect coherent society dont exist, and if it exist one day, it gonna be a totalitarian one, like a lot of dystopic works already mentioned it. If you want to have a good life, you need to stuck with your own beliefs and not try to constantly challenge them with other people ideas. I always say to myself " can i convince him or can he convince me " if the answer is yes, well fine, if it's no, well it doesn't matter to try. Now the problem is, passions can makes you very crazy, when something goes totally in contradiction with it, your mind cant follow and cant change of perspective easily. Personnally, political and social matters can make me thunderous and goes completely crazy, but just imagine if i was ostracize in those beliefs, cornered, without any other issues than end it all up ? This is actually what happens a lot of times with other peoples. They cant handle it and the anxiety coming from can push people to do bad things. So this is why i think everybody should have the right to express their feelings and best, found a good people related to those bad passions and discuss with him about it, he could give you a new perspective that could change a little bit your passions.

 

[Angela]

Through the internet as most people here. Oh, and we also have our small but annoying share of racist/Nordicist people who are also usually descendants of Germans or even Italians. They take their references from US and European supremacists groups. It's also a question of pure and simple knowledge about their main pseudo-scientific points, which now rely heavily on the myth of white glorious steppe warriors, and one doesn't need to be a genius to notice that there's something fundamentally illogical in that narrative as they come from (primordially) defeated societies and are in fact descendants not just of conquerors, but also of conquered peoples.

Also, of course the fact I live in a country that is still the result of a recent major admixture event and inter-ethnic mixing makes me very aware of the ludicrousness of trying to set apart from these events that have happened repeatedly throughout history and make wildly crazy fantasies about ethnic/cultural/genetic purity just because some nations' ethnogenesis happened much longer ago and, thus, their mixed and complex origins have long been forgotten.

Aside from that, what I find particularly intriguing is that nobody here questions the legitimacy of some (mainly European or US American) members' opinions and statements based simply on the member's nationality or geographic origin. That's happened 3 or 4 times in less than 1 year since I've started posting in this forum. It's a bit awkward, especially because it's not common, and of course it's also a very weak ad hominem counter-argument. I won't even tell in categorical words what I actually think this subtle difference of treatment indicates about these people...

Ygorcs, it's not just you. I can't even remember the number of times people have said or implied that I hold a certain position because I'm Italian.

It's as if it's inconceivable that when discussing an intellectual matter I'm incapable of being objective. The implication is also, of course, that the person accusing me of that is himself perfectly objective. Sometimes I do get annoyed, especially because so much of my training and work experience has revolved around doing everything possible to remove my personal feelings and values from a situation and looking rigidly only at verifiable proof and logic.

However, I've learned to let things like that slide or I'd be permanently in a rage. That kind of thing is the last resort of someone who can't counter your arguments.

Fwiw, I think the implication was that you spout what people like this would call "liberal" attitudes towards poorer, non-white Brazilians from the safety of an all European gated community. The latter, if true, would invalidate anything you might say.

 

[davef]

Halfalp, if the Swedish guy wants to worship old Norse gods and get in touch with his heritage, I'm completely fine with that and in fact i find it awesome. He would create problems if he goes around bragging about how much better people in the Nordic league are in comparison to others. If he wants to feel that way, he should at least keep those feelings to himself .

 

[halfalp]

Halfalp, if the Swedish guy wants to worship old Norse gods and get in touch with his heritage, I'm completely fine with that and in fact i find it awesome. He would create problems if he goes around bragging about how much better people in the Nordic league are in comparison to others. If he wants to feel that way, he should at least keep those feelings to himself .

I understand that point, the thing is, i dont believe those people actually mean what they say in that matter. It's like a guy says " hey you ! i'm better than you, **** you " nobody like that. Ok there might be some ***** who genuinely think that their ethnic are naturally better than the others, but that aside, what's worry me is that for exemple, people who wants their country or culture to be in a certain way, an historical way, if those people are judge to be supremacists or racists, i found it problematic. And that last part meet my previous post, if somebody feel the need to express how he sees is environnement, how he feel things, what he like, dont like... he should have the right to do so. I have to say, the only supremacists that i ever read on the internet, are the afro-centrists one, i never see any nordic supremacists etc. For exemple, i dont think german neonazis are supremacists whatsoever, they are " supremacists " in the way that they dont recognize modern immigration, new foreign cultural traits etc, but they are not willing to conquer the world and replaced everybody with germans. And this is my problem, people are so fast to ostracize others, like we do with conservatives or muslims, but actually not really to understand their point.