Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

[Johane Derite]

Tosk dialect diverged from common Proto-Albanian only in the early middle-ages, shortly after Gheg. Reason being, even Tosk does not have maritime vocabulary. Albanian per most evidence most likely developed North of the Jiricek line, around Dardania.

Proto-Albanians are believed to have derived from a paleo balkan people. The split with Gheg and Tosk happened much later in the early middle ages. Even in Tosks, J2b and V13 is still prevailing. It appears Proto-Albanians were composed mostly of J2b/E-V13/R1b.

You should do Y-Full to test further and see what your branch is. The prevailing theory is L51 and some celtic clades under it were the result of Dorians(as far as the Balkans). Highest diversity of L51 supposedly was in Central Europe somewhere.

So far there doesn't seem to be any I2 specific to Albanians(though we have low resolution samples). We need more samples. If we can identify an older Albanian founder clade then maybe. As it stands, Proto Albanians were most probably dominant in J2b/V13/R1b.

This is incorrect. Gheg and Tosk dialectal split is at least before 6th century. Robert Elsie dealt with this breifly before his death.

"There is the major dialect division in the Albanian language, between the Gheg (northern
Albanian) dialect spoken north of the Shkumbin River, and the Tosk (southern Albanian) dialect spoken
south of the Shkumbin River, which seems to have implications. One of the most prominent features of
this dialect split is the historical evolution of an “n” between vowels (VnV). In the southern dialect, this
“n” was “rhotacised”, i.e. turned into an “r”. For example, the present term for “Albania” is Shqyp(ë)nia
in Gheg and Shqipëria in Tosk. The rhotacism of southern Albanian is a very ancient development
because it occurs in Latin loanwords, too, e.g. Lat. arena “sand” became Gheg ranë but Tosk rërë; Lat.
vinum “wine” became Gheg venë but Tosk verë. However, rhotacism does not usually occur in Slavic
loanwords, that obviously entered the Albanian language after the Slavic invasion of the sixth century.
As such, the sixth-century Ghegs and Tosks must have been geographically more or less where they are
today. Had the early Albanians immigrated to their present territory from somewhere else, even from
the nearby southern central Balkans, it is unlikely they would have done so in two clear and distinct
dialect groups."

And this incessant myth that is spread about lack of maritime words is simply not true. Çabej showed maritime words in Albanian. This spreads on the forums but its not true.

Also this thing about Albanian developing in Dardania is not quite correct. Vladimir Orel hints at this , as does Matzinger, but its too hasty and inconsistent to be presented as a sure thing this early.

Çabej also found doric cognate words in Albanian. He is one of the best linguists on Albanian, he should be taken seriously.

 

[Gannicus]

This is incorrect. Gheg and Tosk dialectal split is at least before 6th century. Robert Elsie dealt with this breifly before his death.
"There is the major dialect division in the Albanian language, between the Gheg (northern
Albanian) dialect spoken north of the Shkumbin River, and the Tosk (southern Albanian) dialect spoken
south of the Shkumbin River, which seems to have implications. One of the most prominent features of
this dialect split is the historical evolution of an “n” between vowels (VnV). In the southern dialect, this
“n” was “rhotacised”, i.e. turned into an “r”. For example, the present term for “Albania” is Shqyp(ë)nia
in Gheg and Shqipëria in Tosk. The rhotacism of southern Albanian is a very ancient development
because it occurs in Latin loanwords, too, e.g. Lat. arena “sand” became Gheg ranë but Tosk rërë; Lat.
vinum “wine” became Gheg venë but Tosk verë. However, rhotacism does not usually occur in Slavic
loanwords, that obviously entered the Albanian language after the Slavic invasion of the sixth century.
As such, the sixth-century Ghegs and Tosks must have been geographically more or less where they are
today. Had the early Albanians immigrated to their present territory from somewhere else, even from
the nearby southern central Balkans, it is unlikely they would have done so in two clear and distinct
dialect groups."
And this incessant myth that is spread about lack of maritime words is simply not true. Çabej showed maritime words in Albanian. This spreads on the forums but its not true.
Also this thing about Albanian developing in Dardania is not quite correct. Vladimir Orel hints at this , as does Matzinger, but its too hasty and inconsistent to be presented as a sure thing this early.
Çabej also found doric cognate words in Albanian. He is one of the best linguists on Albanian, he should be taken seriously.

This would proove that albaians(gegs and tosks) were already were they are, but they are just the last survivors of a larger group that existed since ancient times, tosks would be the desendants of epirotes while gegs of dardanians(kosovar+shkodran area) and ardiaei(montengro/malizi gegs).
Why then if we were different principalities developed into a common nationality? Language, culture, habits, like germans afterall, they never were united into a country, they were always divided since theyr birth, but still today they founded reasons to be a country.

 

[Zanatis]

This is incorrect. Gheg and Tosk dialectal split is at least before 6th century. Robert Elsie dealt with this breifly before his death.

"There is the major dialect division in the Albanian language, between the Gheg (northern
Albanian) dialect spoken north of the Shkumbin River, and the Tosk (southern Albanian) dialect spoken
south of the Shkumbin River, which seems to have implications. One of the most prominent features of
this dialect split is the historical evolution of an “n” between vowels (VnV). In the southern dialect, this
“n” was “rhotacised”, i.e. turned into an “r”. For example, the present term for “Albania” is Shqyp(ë)nia
in Gheg and Shqipëria in Tosk. The rhotacism of southern Albanian is a very ancient development
because it occurs in Latin loanwords, too, e.g. Lat. arena “sand” became Gheg ranë but Tosk rërë; Lat.
vinum “wine” became Gheg venë but Tosk verë. However, rhotacism does not usually occur in Slavic
loanwords, that obviously entered the Albanian language after the Slavic invasion of the sixth century.
As such, the sixth-century Ghegs and Tosks must have been geographically more or less where they are
today. Had the early Albanians immigrated to their present territory from somewhere else, even from
the nearby southern central Balkans, it is unlikely they would have done so in two clear and distinct
dialect groups."

And this incessant myth that is spread about lack of maritime words is simply not true. Çabej showed maritime words in Albanian. This spreads on the forums but its not true.

Also this thing about Albanian developing in Dardania is not quite correct. Vladimir Orel hints at this , as does Matzinger, but its too hasty and inconsistent to be presented as a sure thing this early.

Çabej also found doric cognate words in Albanian. He is one of the best linguists on Albanian, he should be taken seriously.

Great post! Every single topic you touched makes sense and everyone (especially Albanians) should investigate further on these theories rather than the ridiculous ones like that of Central Balkans/Dardania or especially about the lack of maritime words.

Hundreds of nations in Europe lost their entire language and are still considered local, but Illyrians and Epirotes possibly lost/adapted a few maritime Latin words after hundreds of years of Roman occupation so BOOM conspiracy theory "Albanians came from the Carpathians" because their word for fish is peshk which is a Latin loanword, therefore Albanian had not seen fishes before reaching the Adriatic and Ionian Sea.

Similarly, the Albanian word for 'air' is 'ajer' (Latin loanword) which proves Albanians lived in a region in outer space without air.

As for the Latin words, I always said that we should take many of them with a grain of salt since we happen to know only a few Illyrian words and if 'dog' in Illyrian was 'can' just like in Latin, and the Illyrian God of Friendship was Mikon, same as 'miku' in Albanian and 'amicus' in Latin, who are these 'linguists' to decide which words were borrowings and which ones not. Besides, it is easier to borrow words that are already very similar in both language just like it usually happens between Latin and Ancient Greek.

 

[Gannicus]

I am not sure bro. Albania is still under-tested. We need Albanians with I2a1b to get further resolution tests to make any assumptions. However, as far as I understand, Tosk dialect diverged from common Proto-Albanian only in the early middle-ages, shortly after Gheg. Reason being, even Tosk does not have maritime vocabulary. Albanian per most evidence most likely developed North of the Jiricek line, around Dardania.

Proto-Albanians are believed to have derived from a paleo balkan people. The split with Gheg and Tosk happened much later in the early middle ages. Even in Tosks, J2b and V13 is still prevailing. It appears Proto-Albanians were composed mostly of J2b/E-V13/R1b.

You should do Y-Full to test further and see what your branch is. The prevailing theory is L51 and some celtic clades under it were the result of Dorians(as far as the Balkans). Highest diversity of L51 supposedly was in Central Europe somewhere.

So far there doesn't seem to be any I2 specific to Albanians(though we have low resolution samples). We need more samples. If we can identify an older Albanian founder clade then maybe. As it stands, Proto Albanians were most probably dominant in J2b/V13/R1b.

Ok, i agree with the material that we have we can't do much, we should have more tested people.
About albanian haplogroups: if you are speaking of current day tests yes it is a lot similar as you said, but listen to this: in the middle ages there were some gegs that crossed the shkumbin river and settled in tosk lands, but when i mean some i mean a good amount of gegs, but still it wasn't common of tosks, look at the big amount of E subclades existing and look at how this subclades are found among albanians, almost only V13 while te other are minoritary, almost non existent, te only explanation to this is that
it rapidly expanded from a small area and a small number of carriers who rapidly grew and became dominant, so E is found at such n extent among albanians because of this effect.
Now, about J2b, J came into balkans and was a completely different population, it settled mostly into southern albania, coming from the steppes of Russia,passing through bosnja, partially settling even there
So what happened is that albanians are the product of Indo european tosks carriers of language, and of haplogroup R1b-L51 probably fron pannonia(hungary)+czech republic, and maybe if we could proove it one or more subclades if I2 and of E-V13 + maybe something else(tests will show) + steppe J2b.
Tosks absorbed J2b and so modern day tosks are R1b, J2b and maybe I2 but E-V13 is a typical characteristic of gegs, the tosks you said that have E-V13 are gegs that crossed the shkumbin river in medieval times.

 

[Gannicus]

When i was speaking about E-V13 i was speaking about gegs, and J2b was a sifferent population

 

[Johane Derite]

Ok, i agree with the material that we have we can't do much, we should have more tested people.
About albanian haplogroups: if you are speaking of current day tests yes it is a lot similar as you said, but listen to this: in the middle ages there were some gegs that crossed the shkumbin river and settled in tosk lands, but when i mean some i mean a good amount of gegs, but still it wasn't common of tosks, look at the big amount of E subclades existing and look at how this subclades are found among albanians, almost only V13 while te other are minoritary, almost non existent, te only explanation to this is that
it rapidly expanded from a small area and a small number of carriers who rapidly grew and became dominant, so E is found at such n extent among albanians because of this effect.
Now, about J2b, J came into balkans and was a completely different population, it settled mostly into southern albania, coming from the steppes of Russia,passing through bosnja, partially settling even there
So what happened is that albanians are the product of Indo european tosks carriers of language, and of haplogroup R1b-L51 probably fron pannonia(hungary)+czech republic, and maybe if we could proove it one or more subclades if I2 and of E-V13 + maybe something else(tests will show) + steppe J2b.
Tosks absorbed J2b and so modern day tosks are R1b, J2b and maybe I2 but E-V13 is a typical characteristic of gegs, the tosks you said that have E-V13 are gegs that crossed the shkumbin river in medieval times.

I dont know hoe much you know about j2b2-l283, which is the type of J2b that albanians have. I dont know if you know that there is an ancient j2b2-l283 that was found in croatia. Also l283 is a clade with very different history to any other J clade.
Read this first as an intro:

 

[Gannicus]

I dont know hoe much you know about j2b2-l283, which is the type of J2b that albanians have. I dont know if you know that there is an ancient j2b2-l283 that was found in croatia. Also l283 is a clade with very different history to any other J clade.
Read this first as an intro:

Of course i know that there is a croatian subclade, near dubrovnik, and all that stuf, what i am saying, thousands of thousands of year ago J2b came into the balkans and its subclades sprode, what i am now saying is that it wasn't part of Albanian languaage carriers, I am not saying it wasn't in the balkans or what, I know about J2b and 100% agree with all the studies about it,what i am trying to do is to degmfine who were the genetic ancestors of those whi brought the language, so probably R1b-L51, and see if apart from it there was anyone else, and see how it can fit with nowadays genetic composition of albanians.
And by the way to clarify ,when i said J2b came from Russia i a not saying the subclades that we have in the balkans came fron there, i am saying that it is supposed that the original J2b father of all th J2b of the world came from russia, the n the balkan subclades are and will always be native to the balkans as they originated in mesolithic times here.

 

[Gannicus]

And then johane they of course by genetic means are some of the ancestors of albanians but those who brought the language were R1b-L51, wich oroginate in pannonia, this would explain albanian-germanic cognate words founded only in german+albanian and becaus of the proximity with dacians the albanian-Romanian common substratum.

 

[Dibran]

This is incorrect. Gheg and Tosk dialectal split is at least before 6th century. Robert Elsie dealt with this breifly before his death.

"There is the major dialect division in the Albanian language, between the Gheg (northern
Albanian) dialect spoken north of the Shkumbin River, and the Tosk (southern Albanian) dialect spoken
south of the Shkumbin River, which seems to have implications. One of the most prominent features of
this dialect split is the historical evolution of an “n” between vowels (VnV). In the southern dialect, this
“n” was “rhotacised”, i.e. turned into an “r”. For example, the present term for “Albania” is Shqyp(ë)nia
in Gheg and Shqipëria in Tosk. The rhotacism of southern Albanian is a very ancient development
because it occurs in Latin loanwords, too, e.g. Lat. arena “sand” became Gheg ranë but Tosk rërë; Lat.
vinum “wine” became Gheg venë but Tosk verë. However, rhotacism does not usually occur in Slavic
loanwords, that obviously entered the Albanian language after the Slavic invasion of the sixth century.
As such, the sixth-century Ghegs and Tosks must have been geographically more or less where they are
today. Had the early Albanians immigrated to their present territory from somewhere else, even from
the nearby southern central Balkans, it is unlikely they would have done so in two clear and distinct
dialect groups."

And this incessant myth that is spread about lack of maritime words is simply not true. Çabej showed maritime words in Albanian. This spreads on the forums but its not true.

Also this thing about Albanian developing in Dardania is not quite correct. Vladimir Orel hints at this , as does Matzinger, but its too hasty and inconsistent to be presented as a sure thing this early.

Çabej also found doric cognate words in Albanian. He is one of the best linguists on Albanian, he should be taken seriously.

Could you provide me some sources I can read through? I tend to adopt the prevailing theory of professionals as linguistic studies are not my discipline. I would like to read your sources if you could.

 

[Leka]

Your disagreement without evidence holds no weight. It is merely that, your disagreement. Besides, Ashkenazim had a pivotal presence in Italy since the late Roman era. Jews were also concentrated heavily in Southern Albania and parts of Macedonia during the early middle ages, including prior to the Slavic migrations. The fact the Ashkenazim belong to further downstream of that branch at present DOES say something about it. It means they share a common ancestor from the Greek samples, whom are possibly from early Jews in Southern Europe. Until you have data to support the clade is found in Southern Slavs, your claim that individual cluster came with the Sclanvenoi as well is unfounded.

Without evidence? The Jews belonging to this subclade from Poland and Belarus are the evidence. They obviously didn’t bring it from Israel and most certainly they didn’t pick it up in Italy or Greece for that matter. Common sense bro.

 

[Gannicus]

Without evidence? The Jews belonging to this subclade from Poland and Belarus is the evidence. They obviously didn’t bring from Israel and most certainly didn’t pick it up in Italy of Greece for that matter. Common sense bro.

And nost certainly didn't pick it up in italy or greece? I don't think so, proove me wrong for example showing me that belarussians and polish people have those haplos too.

 

[Leka]

And then johane they of course by genetic means are some of the ancestors of albanians but those who brought the language were R1b-L51, wich oroginate in pannonia, this would explain albanian-germanic cognate words founded only in german+albanian and becaus of the proximity with dacians the albanian-Romanian common substratum.

Do you know any L51 Tosks? I haven’t seen even one as of yet belonging to this subclade.

 

[Dibran]

Of course i know that there is a croatian subclade, near dubrovnik, and all that stuf, what i am saying, thousands of thousands of year ago J2b came into the balkans and its subclades sprode, what i am now saying is that it wasn't part of Albanian languaage carriers, I am not saying it wasn't in the balkans or what, I know about J2b and 100% agree with all the studies about it,what i am trying to do is to degmfine who were the genetic ancestors of those whi brought the language, so probably R1b-L51, and see if apart from it there was anyone else, and see how it can fit with nowadays genetic composition of albanians.
And by the way to clarify ,when i said J2b came from Russia i a not saying the subclades that we have in the balkans came fron there, i am saying that it is supposed that the original J2b father of all th J2b of the world came from russia, the n the balkan subclades are and will always be native to the balkans as they originated in mesolithic times here.

Albanian is attested late. Even Proto-Albanians would not have spoken the same version of the language we speak now. It is conjecture to think that people were uniform in haplogroups back then. We know that R1(R1b/R1a) are responsible for PIE. However, by the time Proto-Albanian or Proto-Proto-Albanian entered the Balkans, it would have likely carried with it many haplogroups.

Recent findings suggest E-V13 and J2b moved with Indo-Europeans and likely had a Bronze Age dominance. There is no reason to discount J2b in the ethnogensis of Modern Albanians, or contributing to modern Albanian language. It likely played a pivotal role.

With regards to origin from Russia, most PIE R1 lineages are also originated from between the Pontic Caspian Steppe and the Russian Forest Steppe. That doesn't mean much.

To assume people carried only one haplogroup with the language is kind of counter productive. J2b/V13/R1b together were essential in forming the Albanian ethnogenesis.

Also, despite many of these being resultant of founder effects, it does not mean they were lower percentage in Proto-Albanians(V13/J2b). They experienced a huge depopulation after all. It is attested more than 150 thousand Illyrians were massacred by the Romans for siding with Macedonia(If I am not mistaken).

Most of that purge occurred in Albania. Which could indicate that the remaining Illyrians got isolated in the Mountains and then rapidly expanded again in the middle ages with Albanians. Also not all Albanians are part of the founder effects. A recent member Kelmandasi with his maternal Grandfather from Dibra has basal E-CTS5856* which has a TMRCA of 4200ypb. Like I mentioned before, Albanians are extremely under-tested. I bet we will see more varying branches popping up the more people take higher resolution tests.

 

[Gannicus]

Then about the tosk geg differenciation it should be a really archaic fracture because of tosks being the proper speakers of the language and gegs those who took it in use, this would mean that tosks coming from pannonia with their R1b-L51 + maybe I2, settled in modern day croatia, bosnja and serbia + passes the geg area (kosovo, malizia and shkodra region) and settled south of the shkumbin river giving birth to the epirotes, of course partially what dibran said is true, slavs when coming pushed a mess of different albanian tribes from their native lands towards modern day albanian dpeaking region, so we have the genitic mess up of different hplos that characterizes modern day albanians.

 

[Gannicus]

Albanian is attested late. Even Proto-Albanians would not have spoken the same version of the language we speak now. It is conjecture to think that people were uniform in haplogroups back then. We know that R1(R1b/R1a) are responsible for PIE. However, by the time Proto-Albanian or Proto-Proto-Albanian entered the Balkans, it would have likely carried with it many haplogroups.

Recent findings suggest E-V13 and J2b moved with Indo-Europeans and likely had a Bronze Age dominance. There is no reason to discount J2b in the ethnogensis of Modern Albanians, or contributing to modern Albanian language. It likely played a pivotal role.

With regards to origin from Russia, most PIE R1 lineages are also originated from between the Pontic Caspian Steppe and the Russian Forest Steppe. That doesn't mean much.

To assume people carried only one haplogroup with the language is kind of counter productive. J2b/V13/R1b together were essential in forming the Albanian ethnogenesis.

Also, despite many of these being resultant of founder effects, it does not mean they were lower percentage in Proto-Albanians(V13/J2b). They experienced a huge depopulation after all. It is attested more than 150 thousand Illyrians were massacred by the Romans for siding with Macedonia(If I am not mistaken).

Most of that purge occurred in Albania. Which could indicate that the remaining Illyrians got isolated in the Mountains and then rapidly expanded again in the middle ages with Albanians. Also not all Albanians are part of the founder effects. A recent member Kelmandasi with his maternal Grandfather from Dibra has basal E-CTS5856* which has a TMRCA of 4200ypb. Like I mentioned before, Albanians are extremely under-tested. I bet we will see more varying branches popping up the more people take higher resolution tests.

Ok bro thx for the reply, but even do you are right about haplos, linguistically those who carried the archaic version of albanian language were R1b from pannonia, then in the balkans they mixed with J2b + E-V13, but before they didn't, if they did we would see E-V13 and J2b in pannonia on a scale of 1:1:1, but still we see that in pannonia there is R1b-L51 + I2, now what we could do is:
1) see what subclade of I2is dominant among albanians (tosks).
2) see if it matches with any subclade found in pannonia(hungary)

 

[Dibran]

Without evidence? The Jews belonging to this subclade from Poland and Belarus are the evidence. They obviously didn’t it bring from Israel and most certainly they didn’t pick it up in Italy or Greece for that matter. Common sense bro.

more than 2000 years since this clades recent ancestor and modern people. You're ignoring a huge gap of time. Also, you seem to have some reading comprehension problems.

I said like 3 times already that this cluster is probably Proto-Slavic assimilated into the Bastarnae or Gothic movements, and later assimilated into Byzantium. That doesn't mean that this particular cluster arrived with the Sklavenoi in the 5th-7th century(Slavs). It likely was an assimilated Proto-Slav that moved with Goths or Bastarnae earlier.

The proof is in the pudding. As I said, if this particular cluster moved later with the SKLAVENOI it should be popping up in South Slavs. So far, IT DOES NOT. Which, as I repeat as a broken record, could indicate a earlier movement of assimilated Proto-Slavs with Bastarnae and Goths. Do you know nothing of the Bastarnae? They were a loose knit tribal confederation that mixed heavily. The culture they are associated with(Zarubintsy) is also considered the biggest contributor of Proto-Slavic Ethnogenesis.


Yet, I am supposed to believe you who has nothing but an opinion that this cluster moved much later with Sklavenoi. I will believe it when south slav samples start dominating this cluster. Until then, you're going in circles. It is older, and a disjointed branch. Most likely moved earlier into the Balkans. Even Phillip of Macedon employed Bastarnae from North of the Black-Sea to fight the Romans. Including Mithridates who employed them agaisnt Romans as well. It could have been assimilated somewhere in Macedonia before appearing in Modern Greeks. No one can know the exact scenario because they are numerous. Only people with an agenda deal in absolutes.

The samples in Ukraine and Belarus if anything suggest some of the Bastarnae that remained became Jews. Or just other Proto-Slavs.

Ashkenazim are not uniform either. They are not entirely belonging to Jewish Y-DNA lines from the classical Hebrews.

 

[Gannicus]

Do you know any L51 Tosks? I haven’t seen even one as of yet belonging to this subclade.

Hahahahahhahahahhahahahahajahjaaj, I am tosk and I am L51 from Y-pathernal lineage.

 

[Leka]

Hahahahahhahahahhahahahahajahjaaj, I am tosk and I am L51 from Y-pathernal lineage.

Aha, so it’s a ‘me’ problem.

 

[Dibran]

Ok bro thx for the reply, but even do you are right about haplos, linguistically those who carried the archaic version of albanian language were R1b from pannonia, then in the balkans they mixed with J2b + E-V13, but before they didn't, if they did we would see E-V13 and J2b in pannonia on a scale of 1:1:1, but still we see that in pannonia there is R1b-L51 + I2, now what we could do is:
1) see what subclade of I2is dominant among albanians (tosks).
2) see if it matches with any subclade found in pannonia(hungary)

You do not know that though. Like I said, it is likely J2b/V13/R1b were already together with Proto-Albanian migration. Also you keep mentioning I2. I am sorry but until higher resolution samples pop up, there is no I2a1b-Din specific to Proto-Albanians, let alone Albanians. All of it thus far with exception of the aforementioned cluster, moved with Sklavenoi, and Antes during the Slavic migrations. All very young.

Where did you get the idea that Albanians are from Pannonia?

L51 is not common in Albanians. Especially Tosks. L51 could be Dorian in the case of the Balkans. However, its related to Italo-Celtic tribes.

Albanian R1b is mostly part of further downstream branches of L23 PF7563 & Z2103: http://www.gjenetika.com/rezultatet/

 

[Gannicus]

Aha, so it’s a ‘me’ problem.

What are you talking about, R1b js widespread among albanians, tmyes it has good percentages among Mirfita region people, but as I said proto albanians L51 camefrom pannona, settled in modern day jugoslavia + albania, where they found anyone they assimilated him, so here we are.
And R1b-L51 is founded even among tosks.