Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

[DejaVu]

Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA?
No political discussions, please follow the rules of the forum.

 

[iapetoc]

I believe that is obvius

Illyros son of Kadmus invte Illyria
so albania has J2

aeolian E wich was cut isolated and became another nation is the kossovo E-V13

the possibilty that GeG means also achaic ->agaig ->geg a+i = e
(watch acha-menides, aga-memnon, achaic, turkish aga =leader aga-memnon = ruler memnon)

the genetical connection with peloponese Achaic is probably obvius

events unite J2 and E-V13 to albanians
also J2 and E-V13 to Greeks

the R1a and R1b is the rulers probably R1a Thracian and R1b Celtic

 

[how yes no 2]

I believe that is obvius

Illyros son of Kadmus invte Illyria
so albania has J2

aeolian E wich was cut isolated and became another nation is the kossovo E-V13

the possibilty that GeG means also achaic ->agaig ->geg a+i = e
(watch acha-menides, aga-memnon, achaic, turkish aga =leader aga-memnon = ruler memnon)

I think good roots for tribal name are in general: religion related terms, weapons used, or some legendary ruler....

possible ruler whose name Geghs carry may be Gyges ruler of Lydia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyges_of_Lydia

I have idea that stories of Gyges may be about E-V13 taking over power of Lydia from previous I2a2 ruling caste ...as Gyges was shepard unrelated to royal bloodlines and did overthrow the previous king...that might even explain attacks of I2a2 Cimmerians on country of Gyges.... note that Gyges asked for help from Egypt and Assyrians...which may be about related E haplogroup people....

this would make I2a2 proto-Serbs and E-V13 Albanian Geghs sworn enemies long time in past, and perhaps even explain why there is almost no I2a2 in Geghs while it is present in all other Balkan people...

Tosks might origin from subjugated I2a2 and J2b of Lydia, who mixed with E-V13 and accepted their language and culture.... their tribal name might be of same origin as for Etruscans/Tuscans who are known to have settled Italy from Lydia.....

movement of Tosks from Lydia to Balkan happened at unknown time, but might be related with the hole in spread of J2b in Lydia.... when they left Lydia, the vacated space was settled by people of some other haplogroups which made a hole in spread of J2b in Asia minor and hotspot of it in south Albania...

 

[DejaVu]

Albania
I1 2%
I2a 12%
I2b 1,5%
R1a 9%
R1b 16%
G2a 1,5%
J2 19,5%
J1 2%
E1b1b 27,5%
T 1%

 

[iapetoc]

you still answer the 'are and not the 'were'

find the 'were'

 

[how yes no 2]

real question about Albanians is their relation with Dardanians and Illyrians...

and while I am prone to believe that there is relation between Albaninans and Dardanians.....possibility for relation of Albanians to Illyrians is still kind of mistery....

also real extent of Illyrians is mystery.... especially condsidering that Slavs were by Jordanes described as race of Veneti thus Venetic people, and that Pannoni tribes (one of them that inhabited Plitvice lakes complex was carrying clearly Slavic tribal name Oseriates which is translatable as 'lake people') were called Illyrian tribes only based on fact that they lived in Roman province of Illyria....

basically, key question is whether Illyrians were E-V13 dominant or I2a2 dominant....

arguments for E-V13:
1) high variation in Dalmatia....
2) Steven Byrd claims that E-V13 in Britain is due to Roman soldiers from Balkan (I do not really believe this but it does make some sense). But there is no I2a2-Dinaric in Britain....

arguments for I2a2:
1) in Dalmatia is high frequency of I2a2,
2) low frequency of E-V13,
3) there is I2a2 spread along Adriatic in Italy.... and Illyrians settlement there are recorded in history while there were no massive Slavic settlements there...
4)Illyrians are described as tall people, with their tribes known just for long wars among themselves....
Albanians are in average shorter mediteranean people who never had real wars between themselves...
while south Slavs are in average taller people, and have history of wars among their tribes....

 

[DejaVu]

Question:
Gheg and Tosk speakers same people?

 

[how yes no 2]

Question:
Gheg and Tosk speakers same people?

now they are obviously, but originally I think they were not ...
genetic is very different, and from what I heard dialects are quite different...

Ghegs could be related to Dardanians
Tosks could be albanized Greek Epirot-Slavic mix....with Albanization taking place with spread of Albanians in times of collapse of Byzantine empire.... this scenario would explain considerable J2b, I2a2 and R1a part.... which is almost completely lacking in Ghegs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

alternativelly, Tosks may be related to Illyrians, but they are a bit too south for that.... and many toponyms there are Slavic in origin....

third variant is idea about Gyges as eponym forefather of Ghegs, and that Tosks origin from Albanized Lydians while Gheghs are pure Albanians....

anyway, it is hard for me to guess what is right there...
perhaps someone with better knowledge of Greek historical sources could figure this out better....

 

[how yes no 2]

copied from topic about Macedonians...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26187&page=20

Origin of Albanians is twofold:
Quote:
Tosks are mostly albanized Epirots... dominant haplogroup J
Geghs probably origin from Dardanians... dominant haplogroup E-V13

These are bullshit. Epirots were barbarians as ancient authors told us. If we wanna know what was their language we must look at todays epirots or Tosks.

Tha assimilation occur in the contrary direction, because thay who have the state they make assimilation, and they who have not state they bacome assimilated.

Sot because Greeks, had the state (Byzantium), they assimilated all peoples of Anatolia, even the Jews etc.

But Albanians could not assimilate anybody, because they had not state, specially not in th south, until the late medieval (Ghin Bue Spata).

How the Epirots became Albanized?? Maybe some Gheg children armed with sibynas came in south and said to them, "Hey Epirots, come speak Albanian, we kill you", and the epirots were frightened, and begaun to speak albanian. hahha

Epirus was whole central and south Albania

whole point is that Albanisation of Epirotes happened with Byzantium becoming weak...in 14th century...Arbanians spread to Epirus from mountains
as Byzantium was weak... look at years... they coincide with spread of Serbian state towards south...

Tosks have significant I2a2 and J2, but Arbereshe who origin from Albanians who settled Italy upon arrival of Ottomans do not have much of those haplogroups... which indicates that in 15th century assimilation is still not complete and I2a2 and J2 people in central and south Albania are not counting themselves as Albanians...

Haplogroup I-M170 is the most common Balkan haplogroup (Pericic et al. 2005a,b) and the second most frequent Arbereshe clade. Nevertheless, analysis of its network reveals unexpected results: most of the Arbereshe I-M170 haplotypes are not included in the Balkan cluster[/B] (Figure 3), but are located in the long branches containing mainly Italian chromosomes. Comparisons with literature data (Semino et al. 2000; Barac et al. 2003, Rootsi et al. 2004) show that the core haplotype of the Balkan cluster (16-14-15-13-31-24-11-11-13; locus order as above) is consistent with the almost Balkan exclusive I2a (formerly I1b) clade. The proposed interpretation of the Arbereshe as a proxy of the founder Albanian population leads us to hypothesize that the I2a clade was less common in the southern Balkans 500 years ago than nowadays. The very tight shape of the I2a cluster in the network suggests a very recent expansion of this haplogroup in the southern Balkans. Furthermore, I2a is still rare in
mountain populations such as the Albanians of Kosovo (Pericic et al. 2005a,b) and in a randomly selected Arbereshe sample from Rootsi et al. (2004).
This is an interesting finding in the light of recent evidence for selection in Y-haplogroup I.

The situation with J2 is also quite interesting as this is rarer in Arbereshe (3%) than Albanians (17%):
The scarcity of J2 chromosomes in the Arbereshe sample (1/40) is very difficult to explain, given that they are very common in both the Italian peninsula and the southern Balkans.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html

this is clear genetic proof that I2a2 and J2b people among Tosks are albanized Epirotes

So, epirots maybe did'nt call themselves illyrian, we don't know about thet, but it is proved that Epir and Illyria and Macedonia, as ancient authors said, have the same race, same language and same customs.

I do not believe this... please quote source...

if it is correct, than it means that Illyrians are probably not related to Albanians, but are I2a2 or J2b people...
which leaves Dardanians as key and only cultural ancestor of Arbanians (now called Albanians)

 

[how yes no 2]

R1a is of mongolian origin. And they originally were mongolian people, but, as for Ev13 it is not before 4700 years ago that came,

even it didnt came here, but it was evolved here, in the mesolithic, or at least in neolithic, it is linked to J2b, and are together since neolithic. note how perfectly R1a in Italy follows curves of shape of Etruscan area of influence....this is because it came into non-R1a area...

We know that Slavs came in Ballkan, I2a2 came in Balkan togethere. It is simple. Others are bullshit.

lol, R1a Mongolian....

R1a is in Balkan for 11500 years already... (Klyosov proved that) so they might have been Pelasgues, while arrival of E-V13 might be about Illyrians and later Dardanians...
Slavic people likely brought I2a2, but I2a2 is in Europe from its start... whether it was in Balkan is hard to say... I think it was as Veneti related tribes... I am pretty sure that Veneti are dominant I2 people.. and we know that early Slavs are from populous race of Veneti as written by Jordanes...

btw. tribal name of Tosks may be related to tribal name of Etruscans/Tuscans...

Etruscans are dominantly R1a people who departed from Lydia and settled in Italy after sailing there with ships, but it is also possible that part of them settled in Albania...

note the wholes in J2 and R1a in Lydia which is place from which Etruscans departed...

that also explains R1a and J2 in south Albania
I2a2 was probably brought by Slavic people and some of J2 is due to Greeks...

Tosks would on map of Illyrian tribes perhaps be Uscana as e.g. what was Etruria is now Tuscany...

Uscana is in area next to west FYRM, which explains large R1a in Albanians of FYRM who never mixed with Slavic settlers....

R1a and J2 is what connects Uscana (Tosk?) Illyrians with ancient Macedonians...

btw. just don't interpret this as Etruscan = Albanian... things are more complicated... tribal names are carried over to larger tribal groups... all nations are mixed in origin...

Tribal name of Etruscans (they call themselves Rasena) is also identical to tribal name of also Thracians /Russians/Rascians (Rascians is medieval Serb state).... origin of tribal name is R1a...
language of Etruscans was not indo-european... there are suggestion it was alike to Hungarian, and I believe this may be truth as proto-Magyars are clearly non-Indoeuropean R1a people...

Etruscans are as you can see shared link between Serbs and Albanians...but that is not surprising as south Slavs, soon after clustering with Romanians, central Ukraine and east and west Hungary, do cluster with Albanians as you can see in tables in full version of:

Forensic Science International: Genetics doi:10.1016/j.fsigen.2010.09.010
Geostatistical inference of main Y-STR-haplotype groups in Europe, Amalia Diaz-Lacava et al.

More you go in past more shared history different people of today have...

 

[Neander]

Slavic people likely brought I2a2, but I2a2 is in Europe from its start... whether it was in Balkan is hard to say... I think it was as Veneti related tribes... I am pretty sure that Veneti are dominant I2 people.. and we know that early Slavs are from populous race of Veneti as written by Jordanes...

Hello stop with propaganda, stop with nazi, idea,

This is nazi idea of serbs, who wanna tell the world that Albanians are recent arrivals, and to expell albanians from Kosovo like they did in the 1999 when pushed away 1.000.000 peoples from their homes, and burnt tha houses etc.

Think of what your ideas might cause in the reality. Your ideas are cause of killing, massacres and terror, against albanians, for one hundred years.

 

[Neander]

Ev13 it is said to come from Africa. But there is no our of Africa migration after Mesolithic.

So Ev13 is here until Mesolithic, as huntergatherers. In Neoklithic came J2b and unite together, and since Neolithic they are together as the same nation/race/language of Balkan, Italy and Asia minor.

 

[Neander]

How yes no, the map is nothing. I can draw a map, whenever I want. but you have no facts.

Arvanites are mentioned since in the 11 century as a separated branch of Albanians, living in Greece. That means, they were in south, earlier then the 14 century.

As for Epirus, all ancient author said that they were barbarians, ie non greek.

Greeks call barbarians those who were not greek, i.e. didnt spoke greek.

 

[how yes no 2]

Hello stop with propaganda, stop with nazi, idea,

This is nazi idea of serbs, who wanna tell the world that Albanians are recent arrivals, and to expell albanians from Kosovo like they did in the 1999 when pushed away 1.000.000 peoples from their homes, and burnt tha houses etc.

Think of what your ideas might cause in the reality. Your ideas are cause of killing, massacres and terror, against albanians, for one hundred years.

you do not understand my posts obviously...
early Slavs are of Veneti race...
that is not my claim that is written by historian in 6th century

Veneti are I2 people...
E-V13 are recent arrival compared to R1a (which is not mark of Slavic people as you interpret)...

killing is caused by people who speak of being more indigenous in some areas and having more rights.... which is very typical motive in Albanian Illyrian and Dardanian propaganda...

I never take such claims, but if you take them, I warn you that such attitude may come back to you (or to any people who claim being indegionous and having more right on land) as a boomerang...

there are no more or less indigenous people, as we can always take a snapshot in history when it was opposite... if you claim Albanians origin of Illyrians and Dardanians and are thus more indigenous while R1a are according toy you Mongolians (??), only respond to that is that science shows that E-V13 came to area 4000 years before present while R1a came 11500 years before present... so it is clear who is more indigenous.. so, don't push it!

R1a Mongolian... you really do not live in reality...

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=365892&postcount=168

you live in dream of all Balkan being Albanian only in ancient past and how it should be Albanian only in future as well... you see Slavs as R1a Mongolians... and yesterday you implied Greeks being someone who corrupted your pure language...
Albanians are not Pelasgians...

 

[Neander]

early Slavs are of Veneti race...

Other are Venedi slavs, others are Veneti or Eneti Illyrians. They are diferent totally diferent.

Veneti are I2 people...

Which Veneti are I2 people? By which genetic study? Who examined the genes?

E-V13 are recent arrival compared to R1a (which is not mark of Slavic people as you interpret)...

There is no out of Africa migration after mesolithis in Europe!!!! It is fact.

R1a1 came with Slavs, Slavs every where in Balkans were dispersed, even in Albania and Greece.

killing is caused by people who speak of being more indigenous in some areas and having more rights....

Killing is fact that was done in 1999, by serbs, They killed croatian, bosniaks and albanians. Your are linking R1a1 with prot-serbs, in the time when serbs never existed.

never take such claims, but if you take them, I warn you that such attitude may come back to you (or to any people who claim being indegionous and having more right on land) as a boomerang...

I am not frightening, you are alone a frightened man, I have mercy for your psychic problems.

only respond to that is that science shows that E-V13 came to area 4000 years before present while R1a came 11500 years before present... so it is clear who is more indigenous.. so, don't push it!

There is no out of africa to Europe, migration in 4000 BP.

Ev134 is here since mesolithic.

 

[how yes no 2]

Other are Venedi slavs, others are Veneti or Eneti Illyrians. They are diferent totally diferent.


Which Veneti are I2 people? By which genetic study? Who examined the genes?

There is no out of Africa migration after mesolithis in Europe!!!! It is fact.

R1a1 came with Slavs, Slavs every where in Balkans were dispersed, even in Albania and Greece.

Killing is fact that was done in 1999, by serbs, They killed croatian, bosniaks and albanians. Your are linking R1a1 with prot-serbs, in the time when serbs never existed.

I am not frightening, you are alone a frightened man, I have mercy for your psychic problems.

There is no out of africa to Europe, migration in 4000 BP.

Ev134 is here since mesolithic.

I never talked of out of Africa in 4000-5000 years before present
but of arrival of E-V13 on Balkans from Asia minor...
Asia minor is not Europe... both Illyrians and Dardanians are fairly recent arrival to Europe from Asia minor...

R1a1 came with Slavs, Slavs every where in Balkans were dispersed, even in Albania and Greece.

I do not agree that R1a came to Balkan with Slavs... it is in Balkan for 11500 years according to Klyosov....most of or part of I2a2 came with Slavs... but it has only moved from one place in Europe to another place in Europe... and it is hard to say whether I2a2 was also present in areas before Slavs...there are indicators that suggest it might have been...

Serbs are Slavic people dominantly I2a2..... Slavic people are of Veneti origin...there is clear correlation between Veneti and I2 people

However, there is also R1a part that is ancient old in Siberia and Serbia, Bosnia, and Macedonia...
this R1a I call R1a proto-Serbs in sense that they are R1a ancestors of today Serbs (while today Serbs also have I2a2-ancestors, E-V13 ancestors as so on....and those would be I2a2 proto-Serbs, E-V13 proto-Serbs and so on....) ...all nations are of mixed origin....

but in history this R1a was probably Pelasgian.... and was also dominant in people like ancient Macedonians and Etruscan...

btw. Albanians of FYRM has roughly same percentage of R1a as Serbs, Bulgarians and FYRM Macedonians and twice more than people in Montenegro... and Greek Macedonians have much more of R1a than all...

Other are Venedi slavs, others are Veneti or Eneti Illyrians. They are diferent totally diferent.

Veneti are not same as Illyrians...
read more...

Which Veneti are I2 people? By which genetic study? Who examined the genes?

that is what I was indicating here in many posts and what I believe in... which is why sometimes I state it very firmly...

but I do not need genetists to tell me that early Slavs were of Veneti race...
history tells me that...

in the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35)

http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

for genetic related view, well read my posts...
briefly, spread of I2a2 correlates with location directions of spread of early Slavs (compare maps)

non-Slavic Albanians of Macedonia who never mixed with Slavs have roughly same percentage of R1a as neigbouring Slavic Macedonians, Serbs and Bulgars, while twice more than Slavic people from Montenegro.... in same time Peloponesse that was massivelly settled by Slavs has 1.8% R1 and 22% of haplogroup I, while Greek Macedonia has much more R1a (up to 30%) than any of neighbouring Slavic lands (around 15%)...in Hungary, people who originate from Slavs live in east and west of country, as Magyars entered center of that area and settled there, which clearly shows in fact that only west and east Hungary (but not center) clusters with central Ukraine, Romania and south Slavs... but oppositely from expected, hotspot of R1a is center of Hungaria while it is much lower in east and west part of it.... I2a2 is dominant in all south Slavs, while the remaining haplogroups vary quite widely, thus their language and culture relationship may be due to I2a2...
look at
http://www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo

all this taken together is very strong indicator that widely spread belief that R1a = Slavic should be reconsidered...

also there are only two samples of I2a* in familytree dna database...one is exactly matching Britanny Veneti and other position of Adriatic Veneti...

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap

also R1a is 11500 years old in Balkan and 3000-5000 years old in rest of Europe... thus its spread to rest of Europe was from Balkan...
www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf

to me all this and number of other clues is clear indication that Slavs who were settled on Balkans were I2a2 and not R1a...

As for Epirus, all ancient author said that they were barbarians, ie non greek.

I guess your logic is Albanians are barbarians, so all people mentioned as barbarians are Albanians?

I have shown you that Tosk tribal name is probably related to Uscana tribe of Illyrians and that tribal name does probably origin from same root as Etruscan tribal name.... if you look at the map, it is obvious that Uscana expanded to south when Bryges moved to Asia minor and became Phrygians... next expansion was probably in 14th century...

thus we have likely two-fold origin of Albanians - Geghs from Dardanians and Tosks from Uscan tribe of Illyrians... language of Epirotes disappeared from history as many other languages throughout Europe....
why do you map all ancient tribes to Albanians? it is even hard to claim relation to Illyrians, as few preserved words of Illyrian are completely alien to Albanian (match must be both in form and meaning everything else is cheating)

and if you read carefully my posts on this topic you will realize that I do try to be fair in reconstructing possible history of Albanians.... I am just occasionally annoyed with your aggressive approach in which R1a are recently settled Mongolians, Greeks are hybrids who lost purity of Albanian language and similar non-sense... grow up...wake up from your delusions...

 

[how yes no 2]

very interesting peculiarity !!

compare maps

for larger map click here:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Iberia_300BC.svg

In Portugal you can find Caladuni close to Seurbi and Helleni
In south Balkan map you can find Illyrian Chelidoni close to Serdi, and of course lot of Hellenic tribes...

I guess once upon a time Iberian peninsula was new continent as America much later... if you look better you will see Germani somewhere further...

but Caladuni & Seurbi vs. Chelidoni & Serdi are interesting match as they might point out that some Illyrian tribes did travel to conquer new land together with potential proto-Serb tribe....

from Caladuni come Caledones from whom Scotish people partially origin as I explained in http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26103

Caledones are number 1 in this map:

Some legends of the Picts; the Gaels; the Hungarians; Serbs and Croats (among others) also include mention of Scythian origins. In the second paragraph of the 1320 Declaration of Arbroath the élite of Scotland claim Scythia as a former homeland of the Scots.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians

Most Holy Father and Lord, we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread renown. They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous. Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today. The Britons they first drove out, the Picts they utterly destroyed, and, even though very often assailed by the Norwegians, the Danes and the English, they took possession of that home with many victories and untold efforts; and, as the historians of old time bear witness, they have held it free of all bondage ever since. In their kingdom there have reigned one hundred and thirteen kings of their own royal stock, the line unbroken a single foreigner.

this is from the Declaration of Arbroath
http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotland/arbroath_english.html

The Scottish people (Scots Gaelic: Albannaich), or Scots, are a nation and ethnic group native to Scotland. Historically they emerged from an amalgamation of the Celtic Picts (east) and Gaels (west), incorporating neighbouring Britons to the south as well as invading Germanic peoples such as the Anglo-Saxons and the Norse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_people

Mid Northern Scots or Northeast Scots, popularly known as the Doric, refers to the dialects of Scots spoken in the northeast of Scotland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doric_dialect_(Scotland)

now flag colors

not sure how to interpret relation to Doric, Greek colours, and Albanian related name, and possible Illyrian tribe of origin...
and how to relate that with neigbouring tribes being Seurbi in Iberian peninsula and Serdi in Balkan....

 

[Neander]

In south Balkan map you can find Illyrian Chelidoni close to Serdi, and of course lot of Hellenic tribes...

Wrong.

As Alexander Stipcevic, a great historian of illyrians from Croatia, said that Taulants are related to albanian word Dallendyshe (swallow), and Helidon in ancient greek means (swallow), it is clear that Helidones is Exonim, translation of Taulant into hellenic language.

There is no such thing as greek in illyrian lands.

Even there are exonims of Latins, for example, Pirustae- Dardans, Triballi-tricornensi etc.

We must open our eyes, the history is not game, to play with it.

 

[Neander]

but Caladuni & Seurbi vs. Chelidoni & Serdi are interesting match as they might point out that some Illyrian tribes did travel to conquer new land together with potential proto-Serb tribe....

Serbs?? They even are not Slavs. They are some persian tribes from Iran related to Jats.

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/common_origin_croats_serbs_jats.php

 

[how yes no 2]

Serbs?? They even are not Slavs. They are some persian tribes from Iran related to Jats.

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/common_origin_croats_serbs_jats.php

that is typical Croatian propaganda... make story of own high worth origin and Serbian lower worth origin by inventing tribal name that has lower worth meaning for Serbs... Croatian quasi-historians as the one quoted in this article are often biased people in that respect.... I wouldnot trust their "findings" on this topic......same as I would not trust equivalent Serbian quazi-historian who claims Croats are just new name for Avars and how Albanians are settled in 11th century from Caucasus Albania...