Greece was emptied a few timεs because of plagues, who was imported to replace them?

[bigsnake49]

I know that there was a plague during the reign of Justinian and then again during the Black Death epidemic. There was also systematic cleansing of pagan Greeks or Greek speakers by the Christian Byzantine Emperors. Since the emperors depended mostly on imported mercenaries for the defense of the empire they imposed heavy taxes on the citizens of the empire. We know that they imported people from inside and outside the empire to replace the lost tax revenue. Do we know where the replacements came from? Can we trace the movement genetically?

 

[bicicleur 2]

the language didn't change and there is no obvious replacement of DNA, so I guess there was always continuity

but maybe some older mercenairies were rewarded with land and an estate in Greece where they could retire
and pay taxes on the revenue of their estate, of course

 

[Ygorcs]

The Justinian Plague was very destructive in the entire Mediterranean Basin and even beyond, and it certainly didn't depopulate only Greece. I'm sure other parts of the Byzantine Empire weren't thriving with a numerous population to be able to "replenish" the depopulated areas of Greece, as they had themselves lost a huge percentage of their population. I would also doubt the Byzantines would care so much about that population transfer if the population they'd have used for that replacement was also already subject to their crown, that is, they would be just transferring a source of tax revenues from one place to another.

I wasn't aware the Christian and Greek-speaking Byzantine Emperors made a "systematic" (that's the word) cleansing of Greek speakers at a time when Greece had been one of the first heavily Christian regions of the Roman Empire. What are your sources to affirm that?

 

[Yetos]

The Justinian Plague was very destructive in the entire Mediterranean Basin and even beyond, and it certainly didn't depopulate only Greece. I'm sure other parts of the Byzantine Empire weren't thriving with a numerous population to be able to "replenish" the depopulated areas of Greece, as they had themselves lost a huge percentage of their population. I would also doubt the Byzantines would care so much about that population transfer if the population they'd have used for that replacement was also already subject to their crown, that is, they would be just transferring a source of tax revenues from one place to another.

I wasn't aware the Christian and Greek-speaking Byzantine Emperors made a "systematic" (that's the word) cleansing of Greek speakers at a time when Greece had been one of the first heavily Christian regions of the Roman Empire. What are your sources to affirm that?

it is true,
Ροιδης who search the subject gave more than 19 000 000 Greek nobles from Sicily to Parthia and from Egypt to Crimaia,
Nazi camps were nothing to that happened at Scythopolis Ephessos etc etc.

only Ιωαννης of Ephessus, an archbishop slain 14 000 pagans to convert 36 000 (44 to others) to christianity
outside of Ephessos

and not only Greeks offcourse,
Romans also, but in a lesser degree.
they needed Roman army, so they do not hurt Roman pagans the way they do with Greek nobles.

Just read codex Theodosianus.

 

[bigsnake49]

The Justinian Plague was very destructive in the entire Mediterranean Basin and even beyond, and it certainly didn't depopulate only Greece. I'm sure other parts of the Byzantine Empire weren't thriving with a numerous population to be able to "replenish" the depopulated areas of Greece, as they had themselves lost a huge percentage of their population. I would also doubt the Byzantines would care so much about that population transfer if the population they'd have used for that replacement was also already subject to their crown, that is, they would be just transferring a source of tax revenues from one place to another.

I wasn't aware the Christian and Greek-speaking Byzantine Emperors made a "systematic" (that's the word) cleansing of Greek speakers at a time when Greece had been one of the first heavily Christian regions of the Roman Empire. What are your sources to affirm that?

Pagan Greek and Greek speakers.

 

[Yetos]

Pagan Greek and Greek speakers.

not simple people,
just nobles, philosophers, army men etc,
what ever could opose the status of christinity as prime imperial religion.

the slain of peasants was after, a kind of witch hunt,

 

[Ygorcs]

it is true,
Ροιδης who search the subject gave more than 19 000 000 Greek nobles from Sicily to Parthia and from Egypt to Crimaia,
Nazi camps were nothing to that happened at Scythopolis Ephessos etc etc.

only Ιωαννης of Ephessus, an archbishop slain 14 000 pagans to convert 36 000 (44 to others) to christianity
outside of Ephessos

and not only Greeks offcourse,
Romans also, but in a lesser degree.
they needed Roman army, so they do not hurt Roman pagans the way they do with Greek nobles.

Just read codex Theodosianus.

19,000,000 you meant? That numbers sounds very hyperbolic. The entire population of Greece during the appex of the Roman Era (not after the significant depopulation after the 3rd century crisis and especially the 6th century pandemics) is estimated at circa 3 million. That of Italy at circa 8 million. And nobles of course were not any more than 5% of the population (and that's already an exaggeration of mine!).

Anyway, I meant that I'm not aware of persecution against anyone only for being a "Greek speaker". The Christians were also overwhelmingly Greek speakers (even their holy scriptures had been written in Greek).

 

[bigsnake49]

19,000,000 you meant? That numbers sounds very hyperbolic. The entire population of Greece during the appex of the Roman Era (not after the significant depopulation after the 3rd century crisis and especially the 6th century pandemics) is estimated at circa 3 million. That of Italy at circa 8 million. And nobles of course were not any more than 5% of the population (and that's already an exaggeration of mine!).

Anyway, I meant that I'm not aware of persecution against anyone only for being a "Greek speaker". The Christians were also overwhelmingly Greek speakers (even their holy scriptures had been written in Greek).

Again, the hate was directed against the pagans (non-Christian Greeks and people of other regions). They also ransacked and vandalized temples, burned libraries and closed philosophical schools. They don't teach the Christian on pagan violence in school or in the churches.

 

[bigsnake49]

19,000,000 you meant? That numbers sounds very hyperbolic. The entire population of Greece during the appex of the Roman Era (not after the significant depopulation after the 3rd century crisis and especially the 6th century pandemics) is estimated at circa 3 million. That of Italy at circa 8 million. And nobles of course were not any more than 5% of the population (and that's already an exaggeration of mine!).

Anyway, I meant that I'm not aware of persecution against anyone only for being a "Greek speaker". The Christians were also overwhelmingly Greek speakers (even their holy scriptures had been written in Greek).

Again, the hate was directed against the pagans (non-Christian Greeks and people of other religions). They also ransacked and vandalized temples, burned libraries and closed philosophical schools. They don't teach the Christian on pagan violence in school or in the churches. They also don't teach you that the Crusades helped bring down the Byzantine Empire rather than liberate the Holy Land. They also don't teach you that in 1100 years not one book was produced that was worth reading. No plays, no philosophy, no advancement of science or music or sculpture or painting other than icons and religious mosaics. No beautiful pottery. Our dark ages in Greece lasted for 1500 years. There has been more literature, art and music produced in the last 200 years in Greece than in the 1500 years before.

 

[LABERIA]

The Justinian Plague was very destructive in the entire Mediterranean Basin and even beyond, and it certainly didn't depopulate only Greece. I'm sure other parts of the Byzantine Empire weren't thriving with a numerous population to be able to "replenish" the depopulated areas of Greece, as they had themselves lost a huge percentage of their population. I would also doubt the Byzantines would care so much about that population transfer if the population they'd have used for that replacement was also already subject to their crown, that is, they would be just transferring a source of tax revenues from one place to another.

You forget the Slavic invasion and later the replacement of these people with others from Asia Minor, Sicily, etc.

 

[bigsnake49]

You forget the Slavic invasion and later the replacement of these people with others from Asia Minor, Sicily, etc.

The slavic invasion left a really minuscule genetic imprint. For as much as it is advertised by the Slavs, it left minimal imprint. So did the Celts and even the Bulgarians. The only ones that have actually had any impact are the Arvanites.

 

[Piro Ilir]

19,000,000 you meant? That numbers sounds very hyperbolic. The entire population of Greece during the appex of the Roman Era (not after the significant depopulation after the 3rd century crisis and especially the 6th century pandemics) is estimated at circa 3 million. That of Italy at circa 8 million. And nobles of course were not any more than 5% of the population (and that's already an exaggeration of mine!).

Anyway, I meant that I'm not aware of persecution against anyone only for being a "Greek speaker". The Christians were also overwhelmingly Greek speakers (even their holy scriptures had been written in Greek).

Well, if you ever heard about Hypatia, whose assassination is a very well-known subject. If they killed such a famous great woman philosopher, then, did they really care slaughtering some common pagan citizens!!
Monotheistic religions are too dangerous.

 

[Yetos]

19,000,000 you meant? That numbers sounds very hyperbolic. The entire population of Greece during the appex of the Roman Era (not after the significant depopulation after the 3rd century crisis and especially the 6th century pandemics) is estimated at circa 3 million. That of Italy at circa 8 million. And nobles of course were not any more than 5% of the population (and that's already an exaggeration of mine!).

Anyway, I meant that I'm not aware of persecution against anyone only for being a "Greek speaker". The Christians were also overwhelmingly Greek speakers (even their holy scriptures had been written in Greek).

Ι said greeks from sicily to Parthia, and from Egypt to Crimaia,
and from 313 AD to almost 900 AD.

and No the numbers might not been smaller,

consider the Greek world, even in Roman era expanded even in areas that Romans did not conquer,,

anyway, i had wrote characteristic chronicles, writers etc in another post,
the estimation was done by Ροιδης for 10 years,

And offcourse not only Greeks,
but also Romans and others,

Mediolanum Italy was once a slaughterhouse of pagan philosophers and is known.

@ Ygorcs,

just find out why Ambrosios of Mediolanum (archbishop) kick away Theodosios 1rst from his church,
it is known here in Makedonia as the slain Makedonians who resit against the Goths (Makedonians, slavs did not enter south of Balkans yet)
yet later at 380 he start a total anihilation of temples, and builds basilicas above

even at 961 AD the last true pagans with heratage and nobility were hiden in Crete,
Βριγγας Emperror Ρωμανος even ignored the incoming Arabs and send 2400ships to 3300 to some to erase the last nobles of Greek sacred religion,
it is estimated by most that in one night they slain 40 000 Cretans, while to some others to 270 000,

Κλεαγατη and Ζηνοκλεια are for most neo-pagans considered the last true priestress of the 'true ancient Greeks'

yet paganism survived in the dark era, and you can see that in some fiestas, or some dogmas, or believes,
the last 2 decades some of us try to organise some happenings, reconstruct some events, or gather in certain places.

The Roman law
Justinianus Codex 1 10 10
After that all Greeks hide our identity under the term Roman Ρωμιος (citizen follower and ethnicity as Roman)

so the number might not been big, but small.

it was not only in Greece Ygorcs, it was all over the empire and even outside ot it,

and there starts the big strange, the tottaly odd,
the best and the most educated and wise in Greek philosophy move to the desert
and they all learn by heart ancient greek poetry and philosophy, hidden and alone,
but they also learn christian liturgy so to pass easily the wrath,
living with almost nothing except their mind.
the first monks who chose their followers to continue the ancient knowledge,
while in big cities christian monks erase with lemon juice Archimedes palimpsista to write their 'wise' prayers
some others in the deserts and mountains under the skin and shape of a lonely monk transmit the knowledge to generations.
offcourse christianity as state religion and state law prevailed even to them. and they dissapear today

at 536 AD they burned all the Forests that had oak trees in Greece Cyprus and minor Asia, because Zeus was hidden in the forest, and they had to kill him, vanish him.

at 400 AD at Cyrenaike and Carhedonia they made a congress and at 401 they slain everyone who had a Greek or a Roman book outside christian ones, Πορφυριος porfyrius

he become a saint
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikon_the_Metanoeite

yet most historians agree that the last pagans were around Sparta,
i believe they were in Crete.

EVEN AT 1700 AD THEY ATTACK OLD RELIGION
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Fourmont

As for the West?

the burn of Fortuna
the Elvira illiberis
the bayeux
the 370 when Pope Damasos kills a rich old religion merchant,
Valentinianus starts a massive attack with the term,
Pope can not be judged by a mortal
the most possible is the assasination of Agorius Vettus and the reconstruction of Olympian Gods in Rome.
St Martiinos and the extremination of the Druids
376 AD, the transformation of Roman Legions,
the Slain of Mithras followers, very favorite in Roman military,
the ones left are forced to follow Christianity, it is not coincidence that pope decides Christmas at 25 December, (23 is the Day of Mithras)

enough

I would end with this,

Cesset mathematicorum tractatus. Nam si qui publice aut privatim in die noctuque deprehensus fuerit in cohibito errore versari, capitali sententia feriatur uterque. Neque enim culpa dissimilis est prohibita discere quam docere


I hope you understand now that from 300 to 961 AD 19 000 000 all over the empire might not be enough.


if someone want to study about that,
there is a book by Karlheinz Deschner


at Lugdunum the last pagans raise a new Roman emperror, the Eugenios Flavios,
same time is written the epistole 'to Roufinos'
after that old Religion Romans loose even their properties, a total anihilation of souls, things, land, etc, that filled up the empire with many riches.


the city of Harran in Greek Καρρες Καρρυες is the last place where pagan medicine resist the Christian one,
they are the only ones that Justinian plaque did not hit them
REMEMBER BY JUSTINIAN LAWS THE ONLY MEDICINE ALLOWED WAS lyches, pray and EXORCISM,
even Aristotle was denied as pagan.

 

[Ygorcs]

Well, if you ever heard about Hypatia, whose assassination is a very well-known subject. If they killed such a famous great woman philosopher, then, did they really care slaughtering some common pagan citizens!!
Monotheistic religions are too dangerous.

None of that has anything to do with the obviously wildly inflated numbers estimated above. Greece could never have a population of Greek pagans (especially not in a time when it already had a Christian majority) much larger than Greece's entire population now in 2018. That's understandable, because most ancient sources tended to overestimate numbers like that (for the sake of a more emphatic narrative, propaganda or glory), but it's still fantasy though it suggests that real massive slaughters did happen.

And no, as anyone who has read the real history of Hypatia's murder knows they had a lot more business killing a famous woman like her because her murder had a lot to do with politics and elite rivalries in Alexandria, it was not merely a religious affair caused by Christian intolerace (though this issue made the rival political faction provoking against her and spacegoating her much easier). She was killed not despite, but exactly because of her fame and clout.

That said, it is unquestionable that there was a lot of religious persecution against pagans in Greece and elsewhere. Now that does not lead automatically to the categorical statement that that caused a wholesale depopulation and massive population replacement within the Greek territory, especially when Greece was not under particularly different political, social and religious conditions in comparison with the rest of the Mediterranean (especially Byzantine Empire, which ruled not just in Greece). Strong claims need to have strong evidences to back them up.

_________________

@ Yetos

I wasn't aware of this Michel Fourmont and his delirious destructive work (not to speak of his forgeries). To destroy inscriptions and manuscripts so that other people couldn't find and study them too, and to brag openly that the places would somehow become more famous again if and when he destroyed them, and he'd be the one making that happen, and so on... That's really insane, maniac even, much more than anything about religious zealotry (as far as I've read, he became an uncontrollable all-purpose destroyer obsessed with exclusive accumulation, i.e. he didn't focus particularly more on religious pagan objects). Thanks for all the information you provided in your post.

 

[Ygorcs]

You forget the Slavic invasion and later the replacement of these people with others from Asia Minor, Sicily, etc.

I didnt' forget it. It's just that it is not impactful and relevant enough to the issue under discussion now, especially as early as the mid 6th century AD.

 

[Yetos]

None of that has anything to do with the obviously wildly inflated numbers estimated above. Greece could never have a population of Greek pagans (especially not in a time when it already had a Christian majority) much larger than Greece's entire population now in 2018. That's understandable, because most ancient sources tended to overestimate numbers like that (for the sake of a more emphatic narrative, propaganda or glory), but it's still fantasy though it suggests that real massive slaughters did happen.

And no, as anyone who has read the real history of Hypatia's murder knows they had a lot more business killing a famous woman like her because her murder had a lot to do with politics and elite rivalries in Alexandria, it was not merely a religious affair caused by Christian intolerace (though this issue made the rival political faction provoking against her and spacegoating her much easier). She was killed not despite, but exactly because of her fame and clout.

That said, it is unquestionable that there was a lot of religious persecution against pagans in Greece and elsewhere. Now that does not lead automatically to the categorical statement that that caused a wholesale depopulation and massive population replacement within the Greek territory, especially when Greece was not under particularly different political, social and religious conditions in comparison with the rest of the Mediterranean (especially Byzantine Empire, which ruled not just in Greece). Strong claims need to have strong evidences to back them up.

_________________

@ Yetos

I wasn't aware of this Michel Fourmont and his delirious destructive work (not to speak of his forgeries). To destroy inscriptions and manuscripts so that other people couldn't find and study them too, and to brag openly that the places would somehow become more famous again if and when he destroyed them, and he'd be the one making that happen, and so on... That's really insane, maniac even, much more than anything about religious zealotry (as far as I've read, he became an uncontrollable all-purpose destroyer obsessed with exclusive accumulation, i.e. he didn't focus particularly more on religious pagan objects). Thanks for all the information you provided in your post.

Υπατια was a mathematician and a woman,
according the Codex theodosianus she commited crimes,
according Apostole Paul she also commited crime,

1rst crime she was a woman who teached, that is forbiden by Paul
2nd crime she study mathematics and was daughter of Θεων-ας a great mathematician,

remember Παπου of Alexandreia was re-discovered at 18 century.

 

[Ygorcs]

Υπατια was a mathematician and a woman,
according the Codex theodosianus she commited crimes,
according Apostole Paul she also commited crime,

1rst crime she was a woman who teached, that is forbiden by Paul
2nd crime she study mathematics and was daughter of Θεων-ας a great mathematician,

remember Παπου of Alexandreia was re-discovered at 18 century.

How come if the Apostle Paul lived more than 300 years before Hypatia was even born? (also, AFAIK Paul did frown upon women teaching religious mysteries and doctrines, not anything at all)? What you claim does not fit the evidences. Instead, Hypatia's death had a lot to do with the Alexandrian bishop Cyril (nephew of bishop Theophilus, who not only tolerated, but seems to have made alliances to Hypatia) and not just his (fanatical) religious, but particularly his political ambitions and interests, too, and Hypatia likewise was not just a philosopher and mathematician, she also had clout and interests in the social and political matters of Alexandria. Hypatia and Cyril saw themselves in opposing, rival sides in an eminently political dispute and civil conflict between factions, and the religious issue was only another catalyst (and manipulation tool). Hypatia's life history, like most other famous and now somewhat idealized stories (looking more like moral fables than history), seems to have been much more nuanced and complex than the "inspiring" but a bit simplistic narrative of "free-thinking scientist woman persecuted by evil Christian fundamentalists". That isn't but a partial truth.

 

[ihype02]

The slavic invasion left a really minuscule genetic imprint. For as much as it is advertised by the Slavs, it left minimal imprint. So did the Celts and even the Bulgarians. The only ones that have actually had any impact are the Arvanites.

A quarter of Mainland Greece Y-DNA frequencies are of proto-Slavic origin. Something similar about Albanians too.

 

[Yetos]

How come if the Apostle Paul lived more than 300 years before Hypatia was even born? (also, AFAIK Paul did frown upon women teaching religious mysteries and doctrines, not anything at all)? What you claim does not fit the evidences. Instead, Hypatia's death had a lot to do with the Alexandrian bishop Cyril (nephew of bishop Theophilus, who not only tolerated, but seems to have made alliances to Hypatia) and not just his (fanatical) religious, but particularly his political ambitions and interests, too, and Hypatia likewise was not just a philosopher and mathematician, she also had clout and interests in the social and political matters of Alexandria. Hypatia and Cyril saw themselves in opposing, rival sides in an eminently political dispute and civil conflict between factions, and the religious issue was only another catalyst (and manipulation tool). Hypatia's life history, like most other famous and now somewhat idealized stories (looking more like moral fables than history), seems to have been much more nuanced and complex than the "inspiring" but a bit simplistic narrative of "free-thinking scientist woman persecuted by evil Christian fundamentalists". That isn't but a partial truth.

hmm

plz tell me one woman that teach after Ypateia till Jean d'arc
and if remember correct jean d'arc was also ex-comunicated?
When Paulos says to Timotheos A' chapter 2
8 βουλομαι ουν προσευχεσθαι τους ανδρας εν παντι τοπω επαιροντας οσιους χειρας χωρις οργης και διαλογισμου
9 ωσαυτως και τας γυναικας εν καταστολη κοσμιω μετα αιδους και σωφροσυνης κοσμειν εαυτας μη εν πλεγμασιν η χρυσω η μαργαριταις η ιματισμω πολυτελει
10 αλλ ο πρεπει γυναιξιν επαγγελλομεναις θεοσεβειαν δι εργων αγαθων
11 γυνη εν ησυχια μανθανετω εν παση υποταγη
12 γυναικι δε διδασκειν ουκ επιτρεπω ουδε αυθεντειν ανδρος αλλ ειναι εν ησυχια
13 αδαμ γαρ πρωτος επλασθη ειτα ευα
14 και αδαμ ουκ ηπατηθη η δε γυνη απατηθεισα εν παραβασει γεγονεν
15 σωθησεται δε δια της τεκνογονιας εαν μεινωσιν εν πιστει και αγαπη και αγιασμω μετα σωφροσυνης








He surely does mean only religious affairs
''I do not allow woman to teach, neither to αυθεντειν (correction, mastery, etc) to a man, but only to keep silence

only by that Ypateia has no chance,
considering that she was a mathematician, daughter of Theon of Alexandreia Bibliotheque supreme teacher.
she was doomed by hand,
and was not only Cyril, or Nitra monks,
there were also others in the game,

«Ο Αλεξανδέων Δήμος, πλέον τών άλλων Δήμων, χαίρει ταίς στάσεσι. Δίχα αίματος δέ, ού παύεται ή ορμή.»

for Ypateia


to cover the mess and the shame, Christians invented St Catherine Αγ Αικατερινη
Συνεσιος who was student of Ypateia and later Bishop of Ptolemais
says that Ypateia and Catherine are the same person,,
as always for every crime was done, church found a new martyr,

The Ypateia as Holy and Saint Catherine

REMEMBER EMPERROR JUSTINIANUS MARRIED THEODORA AND NOT KASSIANE for the last just reply to him with authentic speech

 

[Ygorcs]

hmm

plz tell me one woman that teach after Ypateia till Jean d'arc
and if remember correct jean d'arc was also ex-comunicated?

There were several, but the most famous I remember now was Hildegard von Bingen, by the way a Catholic abbess, but also a philosopher, magister, composer, polymath, writer and more. Jean d'Arc was not a teacher, she was just a charismatic illiterate peasant girl devoted to a war and the defense of her nation, which she regarded as a "divine mission". And as is clear nowadays to all serious historiography about her, she was arrested and killed by the English to get rid of her for political and military reasons, the religious trial was just the excuse used for that (after all they couldn't find any secular reason to imprison her). The French by her side were just as Catholic as the rest and admired her, she just happened to become a prisoner to the enemies of her country and their allies. The English, for obvious reasons in the context of the 100 Years War and her stimulating role to the French soldiers, wanted to portray her as a threat that needed to be annihilated, as simple as that.