All Iberian men were wiped out by Yamna men 4,500 years ago

Yes... that's precisely my point : as I see things, freshly arrived R1b were instrumental in spreading beaker pots back to where they came from. It all seems so simultaneous. Can't be a coincidence.

I'm being dumb - where do you think R1b-L51 originally reached Iberia from? If you're spotting the simultaneity of Beaker pottery and Western European R1b, surely you'd believe L51 spread across Europe ultimately from Iberia? Or are you talking about the simultaneity of the Spanish and German L51 (from our samples), and saying the Beaker folk spread from Germany originally.
 
I'm being dumb - where do you think R1b-L51 originally reached Iberia from? If you're spotting the simultaneity of Beaker pottery and Western European R1b, surely you'd believe L51 spread across Europe ultimately from Iberia? Or are you talking about the simultaneity of the Spanish and German L51 (from our samples), and saying the Beaker folk spread from Germany originally.

Sorry, it must be due to English being my second language. What I am saying is that when L51 arrived north of the Carpathian arc, they just didn't stop there. Some of them went on to the west. But the explorers, warriors, whatever they were, who marched on didn't end up isolated from the bulk of their people who had remained behind, and contacts intensified between the new outposts and the central european homeland. The elements of material culture found in the west were shared or traded all over western and central Europe when they proved useful, establishing de facto that extensive "mixed culture" we refer to as Bell Beaker. It needn't have taken centuries for people to take advantage of newly established long-ranging trading routes.
 
Sorry, it must be due to English being my second language. What I am saying is that when L51 arrived north of the Carpathian arc, they just didn't stop there. Some of them went on to the west. But the explorers, warriors, whatever they were, who marched on didn't end up isolated from the bulk of their people who had remained behind, and contacts intensified between the new outposts and the central european homeland. The elements of material culture found in the west were shared or traded all over western and central Europe when they proved useful, establishing de facto that extensive "mixed culture" we refer to as Bell Beaker. It needn't have taken centuries for people to take advantage of newly established long-ranging trading routes.

That theory is all well and good, but so far Balkan R1b from that period has been Z2103 (including Vucedol), so where could L51 have originated if not from the West?
 
Well, you can also look at it the other way round. The dates might explain a lot on the contrary.

Stricto sensu, Bell Beakers were just pots - initially produced in Portugal (from 2900 BCE onwards). Then the pottery style expanded northeastwards, perhaps with some degree of demic movement. Simultaneously, or shortly afterwards, groups from the steppe people who had just arrived in - say - Bohemia, launched long-ranging incursions into western Europe. The two streams of people (and genes) apparently interpenetrated each other in a fairly complex way.

The 'steppe' foragers may have retained contacts with the groups they had left behind (you gotta visit the fam'ly once in a while!). Trade seems to have expanded massively at the time. It probably just ran along the trails those invaders had left on their way. The Beaker pots went east. R1b , its language - such as it was, some form of Proto-Italo-Celtic - and its burial practices, went west. The newcomers married local wives. Most of the time, pottery was a female occupation. And beaker pots proved convenient for drinking beer and mead. No reason to discard them. So much more reason for "exporting" them. What I imagine is a newly established netwok of trading paths crisscrossing western Europe, running both ways.

2500 BCE fits in nicely to explain the beginning of that influx of beaker pottery into Germany. From there, shortly afterwards, it was taken to the British Isles by a massive wave of people from somewhere in, broadly, north-west Germany.

The genetic impact in Iberia, though strong in terms of y-dna in places (the west) may have been limited autosomally for some time.

Great summary. Thanks.
 
1) We dont know everything about Khvalynsk / Sredni Stog / Yamnaya. If one day we found some Yamnaya R1a ( wich is already the case ) it gonna be closed.

2) R1a / R1b and Eastern Europe have mainly the same ancestry in those times. So the Steppe ancestry in CWC could be just common ancestry.

not only common ancestry, also a similar language
 
Ok i understand what you mean now. Because Varna Culture had some Steppe outliers and later at the time of Yamnaya Culture, Varna Site became part of Yamnaya_Bulgaria. So basically at the time of Proper Varna Culture, they were already Steppe outliers coming from ancestors of the founder of Yamnaya in Eastern Europe and at the time of Yamnaya, the whole package came into Varna. The thing is, there is mainly no difference with Khvalynsk / Sredny Stog and Yamnaya in term of culture and ancestry. So the Steppe outlier still came from Steppe, just before Yamnaya Culture.

wow, it's not steppitis but just incapability to think in other possibilities!
 
I think the most important issue that seems to be ignored is that R1b doesn't correlate well with IE languages:

Iberia+R1b.GIF


Languages_of_pre-Roman_Iberia.gif


Before L51 from the steppe became the most plausible possibility, the best explanation for this pattern was that L51 has nothing to do with IE. Now a different explanation is needed.

The same problem in the noth: Celtic is young, Ireland & Britain were settled early but became completely Celtic after the Iron Age. What were the languages spoken by the Bronze Age settlers?
 
in that case, Iberia would have been IE by 4.5 ka,
but along the eastcoast they would have been replaced by 'Iberic' speaking El Argar

It's not stupid at all; it's possible 'iberian' language came later than some old IE dialects in Iberia; the apparent basque/aquitania similarities could be due to loans, and we don't know the antiquity of basque in Iberia, so no proof for nor against I think, in absence of writings - I have not auDNA from El Argar at hand so, concerning their geographical origin; and even with it, it would be nice to be sure of the social category if El Argar elites were intrusive...
 
I think the most important issue that seems to be ignored is that R1b doesn't correlate well with IE languages.

Well, I'd be tempted to say that this issue has been extensively dealt with in the thread "How did the Basques become R1b?".

It probably has a lot to do with the ratio of incoming settlers vs locals, and the ensuing discrepancy between y-dna and autosomal.

Are there any other options you think we should consider ?
 
Well, I'd be tempted to say that this issue has been extensively dealt with in the thread "How did the Basques become R1b?".

It probably has a lot to do with the ratio of incoming settlers vs locals, and the ensuing discrepancy between y-dna and autosomal.

Are there any other options you think we should consider ?

But it's not just the Basques. Iberians and Tartessians too. And going by the subtrata in the Insular Celtic languages I'd think Britain & Ireland probably weren't IE speaking until the Iron Age either.

No idea how that happened though.
 
The R1b invaders were male and the local women would continue teaching their old languages to their offspring with them?

But it's not just the Basques. Iberians and Tartessians too. And going by the subtrata in the Insular Celtic languages I'd think Britain & Ireland probably weren't IE speaking until the Iron Age either.

No idea how that happened though.

Sounds like a simple case of fathers not that involved in their children's upbringing to me.
 
But it's not just the Basques. Iberians and Tartessians too. And going by the subtrata in the Insular Celtic languages I'd think Britain & Ireland probably weren't IE speaking until the Iron Age either.

No idea how that happened though.

I think Britain's different: 90% autosomal wipe out as well.
 
The R1b invaders were male and the local women would continue teaching their old languages to their offspring with them?



Sounds like a simple case of fathers not that involved in their children's upbringing to me.

It's definitely a possibility. I think it was Tacitus who wrote that among the northern Barbarians fathers would barely invest at all in the upbringing of their children. So the father-son relationship amounted to little more than a kind of benevolent neglect :embarassed:

In such an environment the mother would probably be much more important when it comes to the learning of languages and culture. I believe that generally the importance of Y-DNA is overstated when it comes to language transfer.
 
The R1b invaders were male and the local women would continue teaching their old languages to their offspring with them?



Sounds like a simple case of fathers not that involved in their children's upbringing to me.

That, or U152 is a special case where the males picked up IE speech from an outside source (perhaps remnants of the Corded Ware culture). I suspect you're correct, though I'm unsure as hell.

This is all very interesting - only U106 and U152 are responsible for Western IE.
 
Well, I'd be tempted to say that this issue has been extensively dealt with in the thread "How did the Basques become R1b?".

It probably has a lot to do with the ratio of incoming settlers vs locals, and the ensuing discrepancy between y-dna and autosomal.

Are there any other options you think we should consider ?

Where do you think L51 could have DIRECTLY come to Western/Central Europe from - what culture. The only possibilities I have are the Beaker culture and the Baden culture (an underrated hypothesis that I've neglected). In both cases, it relies ultimately on a Balkan origin of L23, which I would happily bet on (rather than Steppe L23)
 
ToBeOrNotToBe;555031/ said:
This is all very interesting - only U106 and U152 are responsible for Western IE.
Why only those two ? What about L21 and DF 27 ?
 
Why only those two ? What about L21 and DF 27 ?

Because there are only two Western IE language families - proto-(Italo-)Celtic and proto-Germanic, and each can be associated to U152 and U106 respectively. As mentioned earlier, DF27 and L21 don't seem to be directly related to either of these modern language families. Perhaps at some point they were, but there is no evidence for this. The Celtic languages must have spread from a later Central European source, and the only real candidate for that is U152. And I'm just assuming U106 is responsible for Germanic speech, but it seems about right
 
Where do you think L51 could have DIRECTLY come to Western/Central Europe from - what culture. The only possibilities I have are the Beaker culture and the Baden culture (an underrated hypothesis that I've neglected). In both cases, it relies ultimately on a Balkan origin of L23, which I would happily bet on (rather than Steppe L23)

I'd say Yamnaya Danube. They crossed over the Carpathians some time between 2800 and 2500 BCE, and fanned out north of them. Some stayed in southern Poland (Unetice). My hunch is that others spread westwards to Bohemia, Austria, Bavaria, and some of those didn't stop. They went on exploring and conquering. Some clans made it to Iberia...
 

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