All Iberian men were wiped out by Yamna men 4,500 years ago

[bicicleur 2]

in that case, Iberia would have been IE by 4.5 ka,
but along the eastcoast they would have been replaced by 'Iberic' speaking El Argar

 

[Pygmalion]

La Bastida de Totana (Argar) :

"One of the most relevant architectural elements discovered is the ogival arched postern gate, or secondary door, located near the main entrance. The arch is in very good conditions and is the first one to be found in Prehistoric Europe. Precedents can be found in the second city of Troy (Turkey) and in the urban world of the Middle East (Palestine, Israel and Jordan), influenced by the civilisations of Mesopotamia and Egypt. This indicates that people from the East participated in the construction of the fortification. These people would have reached La
Bastida after the crisis which devastated their region 4,300 years ago. "

https://forwhattheywereweare.wordpress.com/category/el-argar/

Or simply this indicates that people can come up with similar solutions independently.

 

[hrvclv]

Or simply this indicates that people can come up with similar solutions independently.

Agreed. But at least there remains a shade of a doubt.

 

[MOESAN]

@Moesan, from weak to 40% in the incoming paper, too much hocus pocus to my taste.

I 'll have to re-read these different papers and to look at precise dates and places; this can have some effect on auDNA results

 

[Angela]

Sometimes it's helpful to visualize these multiple comparisons.

As to the yDna of the Iberian Beaker samples, I happened to have this in my files:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...c_8s4IHpnLzBZwbvfxne2X09bQ/edit#gid=998207542

Within a short time the floodgates seem to have opened.

 

[MOESAN]

Thanks Angela, I had fogotten this sheet - interesting to settle thoughts -

 

[MOESAN]

I know of the argaric sites and I don't see evidence of any direct link with the Aegean except for the rectangular houses which exist all over the world.

and some of the burying modes? not very common either in Iberia until then or in North-West or North or even Central Europe, before Unetice -

 

[firetown]

Obviously, I2a and G2a has been in Iberia long before R1b. At what time did e1b1b arrive?

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

If you have not seen it before, have a look at this :

http://homeland.ku.dk/

Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I0462 / F
Find location: Arroyal I, Burgos
Country: Spain
Associated label in publication: Beaker Iberia
Date: 2566–2345 calBCE (3950±26 BP, MAMS-25936)
MtDNA haplogroup (mother): K1a+195
Y-DNA haplogroup (father): null
Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
Colour group: Steppe (autosomal)

Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I6588 / M
Find location: Humanejos, Madrid
Country: Spain
Associated label in publication: Beaker Iberia
Date: 2500–2000 BCE
MtDNA haplogroup (mother): U5b2b3
Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2a1a (L151)
Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
Colour group: Steppe (R1b)

Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I6472 / M
Find location: La Magdalena, Madrid
Country: Spain
Associated label in publication: Beaker Iberia
Date: 2500–2000 BCE
MtDNA haplogroup (mother): HV0b
Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2 (M269)
Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
Colour group: Steppe (R1b)

Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I5665 / M
Find location: Virgazal, Tablada de Rudrón, Burgos
Country: Spain
Associated label in publication: Beaker Iberia
Date: 2280–1984 calBCE (3730±40 BP, Poz-49174)
MtDNA haplogroup (mother): K1a24a
Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2a1a2 (P312)
Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
Colour group: Steppe (R1b)

I'd love to see the GEDmatch for them - still, people always equate Steppe admixture with Yamnaya, when this just isn't true. I'll say it again: the Balkans had Steppe admix long before Yamnaya. So, Steppe admix CANNOT be used as a marker of definite Yamnaya ancestry.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

I have no idea, but if L51 came with steppe ancestry I doubt it would be in Andalusia this early.

Only a few hundred years before the samples hrvclv posted.

In the model where Central European Bell Beaker DID come from Yamnaya, what are the dates for these Steppe CE BBs entering Iberia?

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

If you have not seen it before, have a look at this :

http://homeland.ku.dk/

Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I0462 / F
Find location: Arroyal I, Burgos
Country: Spain
Associated label in publication: Beaker Iberia
Date: 2566–2345 calBCE (3950±26 BP, MAMS-25936)
MtDNA haplogroup (mother): K1a+195
Y-DNA haplogroup (father): null
Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
Colour group: Steppe (autosomal)

Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I6588 / M
Find location: Humanejos, Madrid
Country: Spain
Associated label in publication: Beaker Iberia
Date: 2500–2000 BCE
MtDNA haplogroup (mother): U5b2b3
Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2a1a (L151)
Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
Colour group: Steppe (R1b)

Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I6472 / M
Find location: La Magdalena, Madrid
Country: Spain
Associated label in publication: Beaker Iberia
Date: 2500–2000 BCE
MtDNA haplogroup (mother): HV0b
Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2 (M269)
Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
Colour group: Steppe (R1b)

Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I5665 / M
Find location: Virgazal, Tablada de Rudrón, Burgos
Country: Spain
Associated label in publication: Beaker Iberia
Date: 2280–1984 calBCE (3730±40 BP, Poz-49174)
MtDNA haplogroup (mother): K1a24a
Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2a1a2 (P312)
Reference: Olalde et al. 2018
Colour group: Steppe (R1b)

I'm going to go all-caps here because I'm excited, and even if this is wrong (my dating is terrible), IS THAT NOT REALLY EARLY FOR IT TO BE DERIVED FROM CENTRAL EUROPEAN BELL BEAKERS?!!

I don't understand, I know the title of this post suggests it, but it still seems somewhat early, given on Wikipedia at least the Central European Bell Beaker culture was said to have started after 2500 BCE.

Again, my dating is TERRIBLE, but someone please just say!

EDIT: Okay, I'm pretty sure my dating really is terrible, but someone still comment on this...

 

[berun]

No green (CHG) in BA Iberia in Mittnik et al 2017 also...?

By the way this qpAdm is quite good to see how supervised admixtures can be run till finding out what someone likes to find (p.e. LBK had a good chunk of Iranian Neolithic).

View attachment 10444

 

[halfalp]

I'd love to see the GEDmatch for them - still, people always equate Steppe admixture with Yamnaya, when this just isn't true. I'll say it again: the Balkans had Steppe admix long before Yamnaya. So, Steppe admix CANNOT be used as a marker of definite Yamnaya ancestry.

This just doesn't make sense. Iron Gates HG and we can extrapolate that mainly all Balkans HG from the same age was the same, were mainly 80% WHG with some substantial EHG. What characterize " Steppe " is a ratio of approximately 60% EHG / 30% CHG / 10% WHG/EEF depending of the pop. Saying Steppe admixture was in the Balkans long before Yamnaya implay that either Mesolithic HG's or Neolithic Farmers have the exact same ancestry ratio than Steppe EMBA or Steppe MLBA, wich is obviously not the case.

Then if you imply that a similar population as Yamnaya was in the Balkans before Yamna Culture, then it doesn't exist already in some studies, so it's pure supposition.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

This just doesn't make sense. Iron Gates HG and we can extrapolate that mainly all Balkans HG from the same age was the same, were mainly 80% WHG with some substantial EHG. What characterize " Steppe " is a ratio of approximately 60% EHG / 30% CHG / 10% WHG/EEF depending of the pop. Saying Steppe admixture was in the Balkans long before Yamnaya implay that either Mesolithic HG's or Neolithic Farmers have the exact same ancestry ratio than Steppe EMBA or Steppe MLBA, wich is obviously not the case.

Then if you imply that a similar population as Yamnaya was in the Balkans before Yamna Culture, then it doesn't exist already in some studies, so it's pure supposition.

What about this though?

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/07/a-corded-ware-related-proto-greek-from.html

That Greek sample is Neolithic.

Then there is that semi-famous Varna outlier, which has lots of Steppe too, and also definitely (massively) predates Yamnaya.

Steppe admix ≠ Yamnaya

 

[MOESAN]

I'm still amazed by the relatively big differences in admixtures of same pops according to surveys... It freeze my pleasure sometimes...

 

[halfalp]

What about this though?

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/07/a-corded-ware-related-proto-greek-from.html

That Greek sample is Neolithic.

Then there is that semi-famous Varna outlier, which has lots of Steppe too, and also definitely (massively) predates Yamnaya.

Steppe admix ≠ Yamnaya

Varna is part of Yamnaya_Bulgaria. It only shows a earlier migration from eastern europe into the Balkans, but the ancestry is the same Samara > Khvalynsk / Sredni Stog > Yamnaya. In other word, if a Balkan outlier came from Sredni Stog or Yamnaya, a part the time frame, it's pretty much the same ancestry.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Varna is part of Yamnaya_Bulgaria. It only shows a earlier migration from eastern europe into the Balkans, but the ancestry is the same Samara > Khvalynsk / Sredni Stog > Yamnaya. In other word, if a Balkan outlier came from Sredni Stog or Yamnaya, a part the time frame, it's pretty much the same ancestry.

How can Varna be part of Yamnaya at all if Varna is from 4400-4100 BCE and Yamnaya is 3300-2600 BCE

So you're basically saying it's from the Steppe and not Yamnaya then? I guess that's fair, but I still think that Steppe ancestry would be present in the Balkans even in the 6th millenium BCE

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

I'm still amazed by the relatively big differences in admixtures of same pops according to surveys... It freeze my pleasure sometimes...

It's called caste systems! On another note, why do the Olalde samples of farmer Beakers matter, when at pretty much the exact same time there was R1b-L51 with Steppe admixture? And is it really a coincidence that at pretty much the exact same time Beaker pottery appears, R1b-L51 conquers Western Europe?

 

[halfalp]

How can Varna be part of Yamnaya at all if Varna is from 4400-4100 BCE and Yamnaya is 3300-2600 BCE

So you're basically saying it's from the Steppe and not Yamnaya then? I guess that's fair, but I still think that Steppe ancestry would be present in the Balkans even in the 6th millenium BCE

Varna Culture, is not Varna Site. The outlier with Steppe ancestry take his Steppe ancestry from the Steppe with a population who founded Yamnaya later, not the other way around. Outlier is a pretty speaking term. Yamnaya isn't an ancestry on its own, Khvalynsk and Sredni Stog = Yamnaya ancestry, therefore Steppe = Yamnaya and earlier cultures.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Varna Culture, is not Varna Site. The outlier with Steppe ancestry take his Steppe ancestry from the Steppe with a population who founded Yamnaya later, not the other way around. Outlier is a pretty speaking term. Yamnaya isn't an ancestry on its own, Khvalynsk and Sredni Stog = Yamnaya ancestry, therefore Steppe = Yamnaya and earlier cultures.

Varna outlier is dated to over 4500 BCE, which is too early for Yamnaya. I just said that it could be from earlier Steppe cultures, but regardless, all I'm saying is that Steppe admix. in the Balkans is very very old (at least the early Chalcolithic if I had to guess), and populations with Steppe admix don't necessarily have a direct origin on the Steppe.